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| Thread: The Real Answer to Hit an Run |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted April 04, 2001 04:35 AM |
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The Real Answer to Hit an Run
People, you need to look back, faar back, to days of heroes1 and where hotseat was the only real option. When you attacked someone, but wished to surrender, your opponent decided if he/she would accept the gold and let your hero surrender! Fleeing was the only way to avoid your opponent from making that decision.
When homm2 online tournaments came up, I was the first to be surprised how players would surrender without asking, realizing quickly that this was the online etiquette & method in gameplay.
If anyone thinks down to what Jan Van Caneghem and the designers originally thought of surrender/flee, you would see that in the online multiplayer world this got distorted. Hence the abuse of hit and run began along with many other 'cheap?' tricks in the book.
I am not one to impose gameplay rules in TOH, as long as people play fair, but long I've considered imposing the 'opponent must agree' rule to surrender. That would eliminate hit and run, wouldnt you say?
Lets be realistic, if we can in a heroes world:
FLEEING- if two warring factions fight, the leader may run away from the battle, leaving his creatures to be slaughtered, but without risk of harm to him or loss of any of his personal possessions.
TRUE SURRENDERING- the losing faction sees potential loss, and waves the surrender flag, and puts down his creatures' weapons. The opponent surveys this situation, and brings mercy at a 'bribe' or continues with the slaughter.
THE WAY WE SURRENDER- This is how people play online, similar to an analogy of the losing leader tossing some gold over to the enemy leader in battle, and running with the whole army away because the gold that hit the leader had magical properties and froze the leader and his whole army in mid-battle, so they had no decision over the surrender option and 'poof!' the enemy is gone!
So my point is--maybe its time to phase in such a rule? As in opponent must agree to surrender? I want some feedback on this, for in heroes4 it may become reality.
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raZor_X
Promising
Known Hero
The mysterious Warlock
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posted April 04, 2001 06:39 AM |
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Very good. This will definately solve the problem of hit and run. The thing that I want to see in heroes4.
razor_x
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 04, 2001 07:52 AM |
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I killa jeu mang!
I killa jeu! Ifa jeu dinka jeu gonna surrender JEU wronga mang. I killa jeu. I killa jeu ang gang ober mang. I killa jeu egvry tine!!!! I dunno wanchoo stinging mowney anda I no letta jeu rung mang. I gonna winna dis gang and killa you gnow mang!
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plzno
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 04, 2001 09:06 AM |
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agreement?
Surrender needs agreement?
That will produce different problem.
For example, last time I had big battle with Sephinroth of Dungeon. (suppose her intelligent skill and mana vortex!!!)
I killed almost all of her original units but..
She still have several stacks of 100 earth elementals which she summoned!! I could not but
surrender and.. finally I attained my victory.
Suppose this.. surrendering hero is not only for the hit and run case.
To prevent hit and run?
In my thought.. surrender cost shud be much higer than now(cost not only for units,, but also.. level of hero and,. artifacts..)
or.. hero rehire shud take some days,. (Like can hire hero after 3 days passed.)
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 04, 2001 10:01 AM |
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If surrendering required agreement, they might as well take surrendering out of the game. No one will ever ever let their opponent surrender for money. No money is worth your opponent losing his troops, so doing that would just be pointless, although it does make perfect sense if you try to apply heroes to the real world. It is still only a computer game though, not a diplomatic simulator.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2001 10:19 AM |
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I dont care how it would be done in HOMM4, if it's not there, I'm happy
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Myctteakyshd
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted April 04, 2001 12:41 PM |
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Agree
When in the heat of the battle the blue army is losing, blue hero waves the white flag, red hero sees that the blue army has put their weapons down and commands his troops to stop. Armies move apart as heroes meet in the centre of the battlefield. Blue hero says that the lives of the troops are important to him, that he knows red is winning, why waste blood for nothing. Red hero pauses for a moment and says, yes, I will let you and your troops go safely, but for a good fee, what will you offer? The blue hero looks back at his troops, he is sad to see how many have fallen, but gold is gold, and he estimates the price of his creatures at 20000 gold and decides to sweeten the deal with his eversmoking ring of sulfur. The red hero makes an evil grin saying "Is this all you can offer me?", rejects the offer, but gives blue another chance to reconsider his situation and come up with a better deal. The blue sees no choice but to throw in 3000 more gold and a buckler of a gnoll king. Red hero gladly accepts, trying to look unmoved, he has wanted a shield like this for a long time. As the blue army walks away in shame of defeat, red hero is stashing the gold into his chest and examining his new belongings.
My RPG view of HOMM4 
Surrendering player makes an offer, the winning hero then can 1) accept, 2) reject giving another chance or 3) reject negotiations for this round or 4) reject any future attempt of negotiation for this battle.
How's that?
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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Greiger
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 04, 2001 02:07 PM |
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Realism at what cost
I agree that to more closely model the real world that if you wanted to surrender then your opponent has to agree, but even under the proposal that you both agree on a price I think that surrendering will not used much. It is usually not worth some arts to let your opponent keep their army (if they have a substanial one) and if they don't they might as well just flee.
I think that not having a choice about the surrender is benefital, although the chance for rehire should not be 100%. That is something like, if you flee or surrender, you have a 50% chance (or something like that) that the hero will return to your tavern, but they may be so ashamed that they just decide to disappear into the masses. I think something like that would curb hit and run techniques but still allow surrendering as a viable option.
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Gobs0 in Zone
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DSTG
Hired Hero
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posted April 04, 2001 03:10 PM |
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Intresting idea Ves
Still some flaws. First of all whole armies can flea from battle but are ussually tracked down and confronted again. I am reading about that in "The History of the Kings of Britain" ix.2-ix.6. Next what is too stop a person from getting dragon flies and hitting and fleaing with them. Say you get that in your second town and just upgrade those. Then you can attach and flea loosing your 6 dragon flies that would not matter anways. I still dont think that is the way to solve it. Perhaps a 3 day rule. After you surrender you can not recruite your hero until 3 days after the surrender. Thus with the pratical purpose of giving the hero and the army time to rest from their defeat.
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 04, 2001 05:26 PM |
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Go the whole 9
This is really not the answer at all.
We are speaking of reallism and yet as DSTG points out they would be tracked down and killed anyway.
If I were a Barbarian I would take the gold then slaughter them as they ran away. Diplomacy means nothing to neanderthals.
If it was to be a perfect simulator the fastest creatures would be able to flee without paying any gold at all.
If you attack with a Dragon Fly and your hero has superior logistics you could hit and run and leave with units in tact by fleeing and keeping your troops because there is no need to pay gold if you can run away without being caught.
In fact it could be taken to another level to say that flying creatures could not be caught by ground creatures at all if they retreated therefor the flyer should be waiting back at the town for you as well.
I think all this is stupid and I don't want to see these "realities" I just mentioned ever implemented but if you are going to speak about reallism then go the whole 9.
Heroes is not reallistic. It is a set of rules that work well together and yes it needs some improvement.
Heroes should be able to run in and out of combat without being forced to be teleported back to the town. If someone hit and ran they would be one spot away and if you attacked them back the unit they moved would lose some speed due to tiredness from it's last attack. But let's not make it that complex.
Another huge hole in this "Let's agree" rule is that in truth if I attack you with my phoenix and attack with implosion then say "Can I surrender?" your next move would be to sock me in my mouth if the answer was "No!". Not to say "Well, no, Phoenix go.". It's just not reallistic at all. It moves further away from reallity.
If they are going to put this into heroes4 then please make it to where if the defender decides he will not allow the surrender then the troop on which the turn was sitting loses its turn and the defender gets to move next because once diplomatic negotiations begin it is the person who says "No" who gets the first move at that point.
And I always like to answer a question with a question. So here goes;
When is the last time you, Vesuvius were hit and ran on?
How about you Antal?
Flamingo?
Frank?
The solution to hit and run is skill just like it was in heroes2 and it will be in heroes4.
Let's not dumb the game down for the skill impaired so they can build a false high rank. They can do that by typing in their own rules on the zone.
-Mocara
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yawacko
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 04, 2001 05:52 PM |
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I just want to add one thing to this thread....
Hit and run is not a skill, any idiot with an archangel and a book can do it, it takes no skill whatsoever, so there
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2001 06:00 PM |
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"false high rank"....I don't want to see the game dumbed down, but plz don't miss the point quite a few ppl are trying to make. It's a game, it's meant to be fun. I dont care about the teachings of Sun Tzu or whatever. HIT AND RUN IS NOT FUN!! If you take the computer game that seriously, then.... well....then that is up to you.
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Myctteakyshd
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plzno
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 04, 2001 07:38 PM |
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I have an idea
I have good idea of hero surrender and retreat system.
If hero lost his battle, and disgracefully surrendered!!
HE MUST BE DOWNGRADED!! That's what he is supposed to be.
HE SHOULD BE PUNISHED !!!!
I think everytime he surrender, he shud get 2 lvl minus penulty. Of course he lost 2nd skills and 1st skills.
(Lost skills shud be random, not predictable.. and hero exp. is same as before....So he will have real hard time regain his former level.)
In case of retreat, -1 lvl penalty will do.
That is justice. I love justice.
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DSTG
Hired Hero
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posted April 05, 2001 12:13 AM |
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Mo i think that gets a little complicated. I myself never make any extra rules for any game unless my opponent wants them. I have never used hit and run in a game or had it used against me. (except for one game with merlyn001 that i won anyway) I just think that hit and run dumbs the game down itself. I believe the wise rychenroller said it the best Quote:
HIT AND RUN IS NOT FUN!!quote] It even rythmes 
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 05, 2001 12:29 AM |
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Thanks DSTG...I usually play with no rules too...because I dont like making them, if the opportunity arises i will play without hit and run... or maybe no diplo. But it all comes down to one thing i think, what you play the game for
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Myctteakyshd
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Greystole
Hired Hero
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posted April 05, 2001 12:37 AM |
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Practicality
Lots of good ideas and suggestions... My own wishes regarding surrender would be to have winning hero get +2 or 3 to all skills...
HOWEVER...what Ves is suggesting is a PRACTICAL solution to the matter which can be immediately put into effect.
Any solution which requires any adjustments to score or similar effect need to be done by 3DO, and I'm sure we all agree we can't count on them.
Nor will any solution work that requires trading of artifacts, etc. Time would have to be taken for transfer of artifact, heroes would have to meet, etc...just wouldn't work.
Nor would any method that requires trust...sorry, but there's too many people I don't trust enough to "dismiss" troops" in the event of a surrender.
I can see the point of say, an army of dragon flies, however, a key point makes that unrealistic. It isn't the dragon flies, or the Archangels that do the damage, it is the hero's spells. Naturally, that If the dragon flies flee, they don't carry the hero on their backs, he still can't outrun the opposing army himself...he is dead, captured, incapacitated, however you wish to view it.
Those of you who know me know I don't play with "homemade rules". I don't care for limiting of heroes or skills; I consider that, well, rather cowardly. But I hate losing a game just because one player has faster troops, and the only recourse is to find the shackles of war.
But hit and run is a tactic that is allowed only due to gamemaker's oversight, imho, and should be abolished.
Ves' suggestion is simple and appropriate. Sure, it is true that only under the most unusual circumstances would the victor allow the surrender, but, hey...that's war.
A simple, "May I surrender" may be answered "yes or no", and dealt with on the spot. (Perhaps the rule could read something like "If a hero has not cast a spell or physically attacked with creatures, he may surrender without permission". This would allow surrender in the case of an "accident meeting", and could be viewed as "cowardly slipping away under the cover of darkness", but it would remove the "hit" portion of the hit and run.)
Until 3DO deals with this problem themselves, the only practical solution is that of honor; if all players ignore the feature that allows hit and run.
Put my vote in the "Yes" column on this question.
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TANSTAAFL - There ain't no such thing as a free lunch
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted April 05, 2001 03:54 AM |
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Easy solution!!!!
Just put shackles on EVERY TOH map!!! That way there is NO hit and run rules and yet everyone has the ability to defend. You dont have to just give the shackles but make them reasonably obtainable.
AS was stated earlier noone will ever agree to letting your opponent surrender usually buy the time you meet with all these closed maps the time you meet is the final battle so if your opponent is losing to the degree to want to leave you would not agree to let him live you would just say no and kill him and end the game. So i dont think an agreement systme is appropriate. Just make shackles a requirement for everymap.
I will even volunteer my time to edit shackles in every TOH map and upload them. SO it will not be an overwhelming burden on TOH. I agree with you Vesuvius, I dont think 3do orgianlly planned for hit and run to be used in the way it is being abused. So please serioulsy concider the shackles idea.
Jinxer
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted April 05, 2001 04:21 AM |
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heroes 1/2 cannot be used for comparison
One cannot compare homm1 or homm2 hit and run to homm3 hit and run, due to the greater severity of hit and run tactics in homm3, due to:
1- increased movement speeds on land
2- greater creature speeds (with golds/angels etc.. being unstoppable)
3- far more damaging spells or enhancements of it like implosion
4- far less cost in money to surrender, as opposed to the income levels and creature costs in homm2.
Remember again! in homm2 you would start with far less gold and income would be far more limited; so you could not pull it off and easily, it still costed 2500 to rebuy hero in homm2.
I remember using 'nukems' if you remember in homm1 any hero could learn armageddon, so when my opponent (roomate) would near my town, i'd send out waves of heroes to armageddon suicide his main hero. But even that was limited and no where as powerful as hit and run in homm3.
Mocara: Ive been hit and runned by opponents, and Ive done it as well. But I havent played as much recently, and ive noticed how a very sharp tactic can be focused specifically to hit and run to win, without any other goal in mind when starting with rampart/castle etc. Worse than the old diplomacy complaints and gremlin rushes? possibly.
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DSTG
Hired Hero
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posted April 05, 2001 02:50 PM |
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Almost a good idea Jinxer
The only problem is then you can not even retreat, which is completly fair and necasary to the game. That means every game would end in one battle.
If anybody likes Jinxer's idea or absolutly hates hit and run. I can assure u the crossroads tournment is hit and run free.
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Maxym
Known Hero
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posted April 05, 2001 05:47 PM |
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Crossroads the real answer to hit and run
yeah thtas true D
I forgot about that, just as i always kept asking for no hit and run in Cross
And it is not limited to onefinal battle as you are running 2 main heroes from 2 separate towns and 2 scouts as well
if it sounds even remotely as fun try it people (just not with those who have played in it b4, the tourney requires different appproach, but its loads of fun
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"What is life? Work followed by television."
"1985" Anthony Burgess
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