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| Thread: ULTIMATE PLAYER vs. DISRESPECT ?! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted November 08, 2006 08:38 AM |
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Poll Question:
ULTIMATE PLAYER vs. DISRESPECT ?!
Imho, it's been a bad habit since h4. Mastering maps and "discovering" the "ultimate" strategy of killing neutral made things go....unpleasant , to use a gentle word; they were more likely DISGUSTING. and yet, looks!!!! it strikes back in h5, and i noticed it even more dissapointed, dissapointed cause it completelly ruins the fun, it's not healthy and most of all, it wont prove anything.
i ll clear it up a bit.
what is all about in the first place?
of course you remember the sprite strategy, the poison strategy, few more from h4 where turns became a pain for the other opponent, at least u could have something to do during the other's turn: inspecting towns, checking skills, review the plan for next move, etc.. sort of a facts that keep you not losing focus entirelly.
Same "strategy" is now back in h5, and tends to be even more painful.
i'm not talking about the situation when hero is travelling alot and have more fights/turn , in advanced game. this is understandable. u know what exactly im aiming for to point out. for those who dont figure, i wont explain to save the few pure souls left. 
why i am considering DISGUSTING such sort of "strategy"
BECAUSE IT DOESNT PROVE ANYTHING. it's all about a put-on-paper strategy ,not skills, its only memorized posts from internet forums which WON'T help u too much in the final fight. YES, u are great , u saved few level 1 and 2 in the start making first week a 3 hour game, time enough to almost finish the game. what did u achive in fact besides ruining the fun? nothing im telling u. if u didnt realize, the quick combat featare is pretty good in early stages, but was designed for a decent approach of a game, the outcome of fight engaged with only 1 unit or few agaisnt lots/horde, will be always negative , no matter the units, so u have to do it MANUAL, and u know what that is supposed to mean (i explained it earlier).
sad things...
all of the above could turn into selective list of players to play with, just because some just dont have the patience/time to "endure" this treatment and they are looking for the fun, a faster possible outcome (of course in decent lines). if u ask me i'm not a great fan a speed hero tournament, i like to do all things i think of for every turn, that's why i chose TBS over RTS, but i try my best to offer , not only to myself a quality time, you are not alone in the game ---> offline tournaments for that.
u ask rob for more tournaments, do something then to encourage that, to increase the number of the games played....
cheer up
well, it was just a point made, hope few who understood something will take it into consideration , improving the fun we can have --- > more games ---> avoid making categories in messenger like slow player, very slow, incredible, not to play with, spoiled kids, big mouth, the friends list becoming thinner and thinner, very few to chooose from.
let's keep it all on a single category "TOH" cause it used to be and i still considered it a pleasat place to spend a good time.
game is good, small chat could spice it up, idea of a tournament completes the picture.
to..more games and more fun
have a nice day
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Ghasteater
Known Hero
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posted November 08, 2006 09:10 AM |
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He-he Teach it is post about me...  And way I can compensate with some "honorable deeds", like plaing RANDOM with oppnent, whohave less raiting, reload when he loses no neutrals, reporting when me lose e.t.c...
What do you do if you play random you is inferno and your oppontnis inferno too and have Deleb? Or play with nature againist Havez.
Just simple give up?
Or youbegin to risk struggle and do e.t.c. things.
Yes, i'm 1-st man who need to restrict LONG battles but not by timed in combat or disrespect, but by PENALTIES TO MOVE, right strategies neutrals e.t.c...
But who guilty if developers so stupid that cant do strategy, where 4 groups of golems take to all corners???
So if some player have lesser luck on start, but have luck with guards can he compensate it with long battles???
Also fightng ghosts can be wery annoing. But WERY NESSESARY in some things
So if you like to play fast bames, may be better create maps with pandora 50000 exp on start, complete castle some bonuses...
Or simple play duels.
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kolia
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 08, 2006 09:56 AM |
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Edited by kolia at 09:59, 08 Nov 2006.
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Nice post Teach, but, reading Ghast's answer, you can already understand that this kind of player will not understand your point...and there is nothing you can do : it's two different (opposite!) ways of playing.
Of course this game is all about timings (not rushing...) and moving fast, and when i hear someone saying : "on BoH i can break devils week 3", well .... i'm admirative about the exploit. But i would avoid this player as much as possible! Maybe you can say i'm scared (anyway, i'm still a n00b discovering the game for now, so anyone here is welcome to squash me), but it's simply that i want a game that i played without waiting 45 min for each of my opponent turn.
I think everyone tried to kill slow troops with 1 sprite, or any of these "exploits". But that you try offline (not to bother others during hours), and just too see if you're not the only stupid guy on earth that is not capable  and that does'nt understood the "trick".
Quote:
So if you like to play fast bames, may be better create maps with pandora 50000 exp on start, complete castle some bonuses...
Or simple play duels.
You know that it's not about that ... don't insult other's intelligence
Anyway...it's good that we speak about this, and share opinions
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zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted November 08, 2006 10:17 AM |
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Edited by zilonite at 12:13, 08 Nov 2006.
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First thing, just pure human curiosity - who the hell was able to piss-off Teacher so much?
But seriosly - i know this feeling that inspired Teacher to make post like this and "carefulness" in game-play should not turn the game into nightmare for opponents nerves. Yet, IMHO, Ghast made the point here.
Just some additional thoughts:
- regarding play-style "two steps there, three steps here and on day 20 you will be able to reach that thing with your last movement point" ("strategy on paper", as Teacher put it)  never liked it very much, too. BUT, if you play the same map over and over, it all is coming down to more and more elaborate strategies. So only way to avoid, is either to play random maps or at least maps on which you can't do such always-working planning
(... Ashes and Sands ... um, sorry for advertising... )
- regarding "uber-slowness of gameplay" its all subjective and depends on what exactly is that fun moment you get out the game I always prefer quality over quantity, so no problem for me to play with Ghast with his uber-long turns as i'm not fast myself 
- as Ghast said, there are some towns that require slow playing (like Inferno without Deleb or Dungeon) E.g., if you want to have at least slight chance with Dungeon, you can not affort to lose that one blood babe on every battle that autocombat offers you.
By summing up:
there is only one cure, as bitter as it might sound, to this - play with those that make you feel good about the time you spent on the game and avoid those who has different vision on what fun-game is.
EDIT: Just saw Kolia's post - agreed completely (albeit it might be that we have different understanding of how much time and how much "carefullness" is acceptable)
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Ghasteater
Known Hero
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posted November 08, 2006 11:02 AM |
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He-he nice dialogue we have...
Someone dislike fast games (Need respect not only to time, but for opponent brain cells), someone dislike to play HUGE maps, someone dislike to play small (I will like and it another compensation to my slowness)
I think main problem can appear only at tournaments like ceasar or if someone wanna take shild from me
I admit, that somsyhing wrong with my hands, adn dislike to hurry, somay be THA SAME DEEDS, as opponent do can be 1.5-2 times longer... 
Of course turnbased attract that "slow freaks" like me but i hope that Nival developers/modders improve gameplay and mapmakers just made right maps.
And tournament rules just do some average requirmats for MANY groups that DISLIKE to play each other.
Like list of NOT HUGE MAPS, which can played at 8 min per turn min with "Quiqk baltlles" and "Dynamic battles".
Only that kind may be discussed another qustions is wery relative.
Who like to save free time, who save nerve cells and respect to each/other e.t.c...
P.S. When opponent do his "long moves" i can:
1) Play with son.
2) Make "fighting with shadow". Or other muscle training.
3) Read and post on forums.
So SLOW but INTERESTING players are WELlCOME!!!
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Arangar
Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
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posted November 08, 2006 11:05 AM |
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I'm just wondering how long jinxer's turns (or mine even) could be if he played like this
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Ghasteater
Known Hero
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posted November 08, 2006 11:31 AM |
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Quote:
Same "strategy" is now back in h5, and tends to be even more painful.
I not htink that is right. In homm4 we have pump up many heroes in many ways, and here may be only pump up 1 2-dary hero is possible.
Also we have direct attack, so not think that battle can be longer than 30 turns.
Also there is kind 1-time slow battles for exaple when you buy inferno hero (For Sylvan), build mage guild and fight with lots of marksman or Horde of gremlins, that guard sawmill.
May be better to tell mapmakers which maps can be asseptable for us.
Also i have experience plaing with insatiable at his map (not seeng it) and have 1 long battle because Daemon with his army stonespikes angd ghosts take sawmil and ore mine and bag 250, when main hero (Dr. Caspar) attack "box" filled with refugee camps and 4 lvl dvelvs...
And i wery intersted in SLOW PLAYERS WHO LIKE TO PLAY SMALL MAPS.
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted November 08, 2006 01:05 PM |
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hold your horses ghast, i wasnt pointing fingers, we two didnt even play once in h5 , so why u went berserk ? there are no devils around 
i was speaking generally, hypothetically even
i found a way that should be implemented in the map ill make to prevent that and reduce the "exploit".
but so far, was a petition for decency, not a frustration or some angry reaction, as zilonite implies . every game has its flaws, but this is not a tragedy afterall, and honestly, h5 has a pretty good balance.
as for the clans, i guess i have to recruit ghast in just to avoid long games . but not only for that , he will be a lowering morale factor for enemy team, whatever is that supposed to mean .
have a nice day
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Ghasteater
Known Hero
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posted November 08, 2006 01:19 PM |
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He-he i just another time show my position...
Becuse all feelings need understanding.
When i was closed beta tester, i tired from requests 2 minute matches (battles is not count in time, as in open beta)
People who was in, know how i search opportunity to play aginist humans, and my scrying about disbalanse and "long strategies"...
Since Homm4 it is really problem for me, and if you wanna "restrict exploit" you need describe type of battle you wanna restrict as good, as need to easily see if that battle counts or not.
And be ready that some races will be banned or disrespected because long strategies...
Also we can't check saves, but cheat "plaing after disconnect" is now impossible if we not use computer players.
P.S. About clans. We need chose the same Phylosofy, and that can be problematical... May be i wanna play for dwarwes and you for Haven or Sylvan?
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RaZmuShaDoW
Known Hero
The Sync Bug Hunter
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posted November 08, 2006 02:36 PM |
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I don't find that aspect of the game as a disrespect of the oponent.
And I am quite sure that if I play a game vs some person that I would like to win against I will do everything legal and honoroble to beat him. That's because winning is 50% of fun for me
Also this topic is mostly about 1 or 2 week of the game and only on some ~5 stacks of neutrals so not so big of the problem I think.
The biggest problem here is that Nival made it impossible to make anything good during your oponents turn.. Only letting to look at the town would solve the problem..
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What’s the point of being a renegade if you still have to pay taxes?
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Ghasteater
Known Hero
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posted November 08, 2006 02:44 PM |
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Quote:
And I am quite sure that if I play a game vs some person that I would like to win against I will do everything legal and honoroble to beat him. That's because winning is 50% of fun for me
He-he good point. I need to say about my motivation too...
I not wery like to win , when everything is good. Just VENI,VIDI,VICI (I can mistaken with Latin words) as Makedonsky say.
I like to dance on edge of probability, flee from enemy hero, expect his hit'n'run, mine hit'n' run e.t.c...
Games of that sort was vs most powerful players as Zilo, Val, Betruger and vs other "average palyers" when things was not too good.
And that style of plaing can't be exclude long battles and i hope can be interesting for both sides.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted November 08, 2006 02:48 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 15:59, 08 Nov 2006.
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Quote:
- regarding "uber-slowness of gameplay" its all subjective and depends on what exactly is that fun moment you get out the game I always prefer quality over quantity, so no problem for me to play with Ghast with his uber-long turns as i'm not fast myself
By summing up:
there is only one cure, as bitter as it might sound, to this - play with those that make you feel good about the time you spent on the game and avoid those who has different vision on what fun-game is.
I agree with the Quality not Quanity. Heroes is a strategy game....lets not forget that. If you want a fast game, then play Warcraft 3 and rush in to your opponent 45 secs into game and end it.
Apparently I missed the boat....but for last 7 years, I have been playing a version of Heroes and listening to people tell me that I need to incorperate more strategy and tactics to my style... so finally I come outta my shell and am grasping some rare ideas outside of my comfort zone, which includes some longer battles.. and not talking about some cheap 1 sprite tactic. But it sickens me when people suggest that we just take the auto combat for purposes of speeding up game lol. Has heroes and TOH really sunk to the level of auto combat fighting our games? Then maybe the rankings page should look like this:
AutoCombat Jinxer: 4 wins 23 losses
AutoCombat Arangar: 10 wins 482 losses
etc...etc....
That autocombat feature would have quite a reputation....
Bottom line is, if you dont got the time to spend on a good hard fought well thought out strategy game, then you shouldnt be playing...and definatlely shouldnt be complaining about it.
BESIDES!!! There is a save feature!!!! So play for 3 hours then save and continue next day. I currently have 6 saves going. So I always have a game to play with someone when ever I sign on MSN. SUre it takes a couple loads of saves, but who cares. The games get finished and reported. So this way you dont ahve to spend 12 hours straight in a game.... people who think that game needs to finish in 5 straight hour session, is kidding themself and only wanting mass quanity of games to report.
Kinda like the players who was exploiting Land of Outcasts and was turning out 6 games per day.... that proves nothing on rankings besides you can click the win loss button on TOH page multiple times a day.
BTW my post is not intended as any personal attack on anyone in general...especially not teacher.... just expressing my opinion on the general topic of......
" Quality vs. Quanity "
**** on a side note... concerning players exploiting tactics that allow for breaking week 3 on an otherwise week 5-6 map... That kinda stuff I disapprove of and have to agree with teacher that that stuff is just silly and ruins games... and chances are those types of players get entered into my no play list. ****
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted November 08, 2006 04:06 PM |
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Both arguments seem reasonable and wellput. Is like those subjects as 'abortion: yer or no' you can talk for ages about it without concluding.
So i guess is a matter of choice then
I would like extra long games with many castles and even 2 main heroes to handle, but, if i had 9 lives i had to spend 3 of them playing only such maps.
As for exploiting neutrals.. well, mostly i mind cause is time consuming. Personally i avoid 'slow' players ,however i do say yes on game now and then.
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Ghasteater
Known Hero
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posted November 08, 2006 04:43 PM |
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Also i cann add, that autombat can't be applay to rases that need mana as necros and dungeon becouse they lose it when not need.
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted November 08, 2006 05:34 PM |
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in theory yes, but after beer #3 you ride the ACmobile to a razor slide..
at one of my games suddenly i realized that i had no more maidens- few rounds ago i had about 70, and NO i didnt 'split and lose backpack'
somtimes i think we shouldnt be doing AC at all..for me is so intruiging to NOT replay, cannot resist
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 09, 2006 01:23 AM |
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WTF is this all about?
Is the complaint that people take too long during their turns just because they want to avoid minimal losses?
- Use time limit to encourage the use of quick-combat.
Is the complaint that people learn how to play and how to use 'tricks' to defeat larger stacks than 'they are supposed to'?
- Play maps with even larger monsters - or where border guards are garrisons containing a mixture of creatures (and the abusive strategies are harder to apply).
Apparently I have completely missed what this is all about (And being one of the pure souls mentioned :-) Anyone care to stain me? ;-)
//Tapani
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bobbyohms
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 09, 2006 03:16 AM |
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I'm not sure I completely get everything this post and it's replies were all about. However it does make me want to make a few comments. Probably some of you have noticed I haven't been around much the past month or so. This has mostly been because of the ammount of time games are taking now.
When I first was playing I could sit down when I got home at 5 and get a full game played in about 5 hours or maybe 6 if I was playing Dragon's Pass. Lately I can't even come close to this time. Games are taking a good 9 hours or more. Also other player's turns are taking usually twice as long as mine or more and I'm not even making my mouse smoke either.
Some have put up comments of quality vs quantity and all that. Anyone that knows me or has played me knows I'm all about the quality. I don't profess to be a great player but my record is respectable and I know the game quite well. In fact, most of the "balance" issues folks bring up I completely disagree with and have learned counters for (On a side note GET THE FAN GAME MANUAL AND READ IT. Just printing out those skill trees and learning them is the key to this game.). I almost never use autocombat and rarely ever lose units in neutral battles. Most of my turns take probably 4-6 minutes and I get everything moved around and so forth. So it is really hard for me to understand why it takes 15-20 minutes for people to take their turns. I don't mind a long turn now and then cause I have them sometimes too but the game loses fun for me sitting here staring at the turn bar (Mostly due to there being no chime which I suspect is also why some opponents turns get long... I doubt that first 5 min with the turn bar not moving was them building.) for 20 minutes, then finally my turn and a couple battles and such and then waiting for 20 minutes again.
My point is this. I want a good game. I want a quality game. But if I am able to play my turns in half the time of my opponent nearly all the time AND I'm not losing troops in battles then something is wrong. Don't misunderstand, I don't want anyone to feel rushed but seriously this wasn't happening the first few months I was playing so I'm not sure what has happened. Whenever I play I always respect my opponent and move as quickly as possible without rushing to get through my turn. I don't like making them wait.
One final thing is I'm half wondering if this has to do with the types of maps everyone is playing. It strikes me as a bit odd that 2 or 3 towns and a few dwellings are on maps and to offset the large armies huge guard stacks are put down. What happened to smaller armies and smaller stacks? Same ammount of game playing time if it is balanced right. The game can be made just a fun and actually if there are balance issues it's with huge armies. Don't get me wrong the maps are cool but I think we need some more maps that have plenty to do but don't involve gathering an army the size of the population of China.
Anyway, I'll get playing again at some point. I'm something of an addict when I'm having fun but for me games lately just haven't been. Have a fun, quality game but please try to move your turns along a bit. You don't have to be a speeddemon, just recognize that your opponent is waiting patiently and excited to kill that stack of earth elementals and get the gold mine.
Hope this post doesn't keep anyone from wanting to play me. Just thought I'd let you know this was a good part of why i haven't been playing much. Take care and I'll still play anybody no matter how long your turns take.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted November 09, 2006 03:46 AM |
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You people whine too much.
Everyone has thier own way of playing & you talk about yourself Bobby.
You been here awhile to know there are good & bad players.
SOme of tghe good players are put into predictaments or they they try not to feel rushed.
I would rather win a fair game then to win a game over a time limit or if a player is feeling like they are being rushed.
Play the people you want to play & that has been said for years.
Dont you get tired of hearing people cry because they play players they dont know & get screwed SOMEHOW SOMEWAY.
This whole thread is no crime to anyone.
All you can do is not play them & put them on your blacklist.
Most of all I am tired of hearing you Bobby & a few others about not playing as much because of the fun factor.
You put yourself in that predictament.
Dont take it out on the game or the people on here etc.
There are choices & options so you did this to yourself.
You think your the only one who wants a good game?
There are plenty of players who will give good games.
In my years here I opened up many new players to become known fun players because i give them a chance.
If I got screwed then it happens.
If I dont then thats good for thier reputation to get good games from some of the best players.
Even though I have done that in years.
New strategies are being learned so it takes a bit longer when it is taken effect.
It's the same as in heroes 3.
What did you expect.
A simple hit & kill game?
Quality is better but it takes 2 to want the same thang.
Quality dont just come from your own eyes.
People see it in two definitions.
I never liked 20 minute turns either but it happens.
It shouldnt but it does, not everyone does it & if it bothers you that bad then just dont play them.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted November 09, 2006 09:29 AM |
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actually. depends on map(design- how close between opponents, guard strength etc), wether population and income is balance factor or just a mapmakers fetish
btw, boob, play me im 3-4 min turns average. Somtimes 10 sometimes 1 as well
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Ghasteater
Known Hero
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posted November 09, 2006 10:14 AM |
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Prablen isn't too great because slow units is only peasant/footman/zombie/golem
Another with movement 5 (minos daemons Erth els) can have problematical to flee...
Of course there is another strategies like spiritlink + ghosts animation + plague e.t.c. But most long battles come ageinist these 4 units may be exept peasants.
So take Pandora with 15-20k exp, make startinng town lvl 7-9, plase guards 4 lvl+ and go-go-go...
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