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baniaque1
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 20, 2007 10:09 AM |
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actually I lost against a necro , who played something like MMR... He was Nadir(Manes guy) , and since necro gets Mark of the Necromancer now, he had mana to support his spells... Having Summoning and Dark spells as native seems alot better to me than having Summoning + Light Spells.
Worst spell combination you can get is Arcane Armor + Curse Of The NetherWorlds + Summon Elemental + Blind ... which can have better results than the worst Light combo.
Also getting free troops while you build the spells in town is very good.
Yes, it seems reasonable that Necro could do ok with an MMR like strategy as well, but only because of MoTN. I recently played against a Necro opponent online that used an MMR like strategy. I was playing Academy and it was a very close game but my opponent won by using MoTN and raise dead combo to endlessly raise his army. He only had something like 10 spell points but he managed to never run out of them and actually cast as many spells as I did.
Some people have mentioned that MMR might be doable with Dungeon as well but I don't think dungeon would benefit from an MMR like strategy as much as if they maximized troops and also ofcourse developed their destructive magic on the side....even in a rush scenario.
it is much easier to beat rushing necro player with counterspell ability (from wizard`s sorcery skill patch), i always play Jhora, which casts spells more frequenlty the higher level she is, so even if the necromancer has expert sorcery too, i manage to counter his all spells for the whole battle and ocassionally cast my phoenix or other strong magic.
afaik, the counterspell costs a half of the hero`s initiative, maybe that is why i use it with rushing Caspar that usually has more spellpower than my Jhora, and it works (not always, especially when he has many wraiths)
anyway, locking necromancer`s spells means ressurecting his units only with the tent 
if he decides not to cast (raise dead or anything) but shoot instead, its even better for me, because i dont have to use counterspell again, i.e. lose my spell turn and i dont have to spend mana on countered spells. it is a bad decision to give up casting spells when your opponent uses counterspell, unless you have really high physical dmg with your hero.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 10:14 AM |
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Jhora gets only 1 point initiative more at level 20, and with all the ATB randomness it doens't really give you much (the enemy still has a huge chance of acting first). And through 20 levels, her ability is useless. Most overlooked hero in history.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 20, 2007 10:18 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 10:20, 20 Mar 2007.
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afaik, the counterspell costs a half of the hero`s initiative, maybe that is why i use it with rushing Caspar that usually has more spellpower than my Jhora, and it works (not always, especially when he has many wraiths)
Are you sure? I thought it was a whole turn and that it didn't affect enemy sorcery since they don't get to cast.
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baniaque1
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 20, 2007 10:22 AM |
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Jhora gets only 1 point initiative more at level 20, and with all the ATB randomness it doens't really give you much (the enemy still has a huge chance of acting first). And through 20 levels, her ability is useless. Most overlooked hero in history.
i am not sure about how it works.... is the ATP randomness factor existing only in the first turn? or the whole battle?
i always thought it can go random at the beginning, then its a result of units initiative calculation, if so, its no problem when he act first, at the beginning he has nothing to raise
while the battle goes on and on, when they both (Caspar and Jhora) have exp socery, Jhora acts first, and sometimes cast twice before Caspar.
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Pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted March 20, 2007 10:31 AM |
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Edited by Pomo at 10:33, 20 Mar 2007.
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Well, I think that Jhora casting twice before the other hero acts is impossible actually - the largest ATB difference possible at start is 0.25. By the time a level 20 Jhora gets her action in that circumstance 0.75/11 = 0.68 (the minimum value the for the opposing hero's ATB). Jhora then gets sorcery bonus of 0.3 and needs to make up the remaining 0.7 before the other hero gets their remaining 0.32 in order to cast again before them. This is clearly impossible.
Edit: I just re-read your post and see that I misunderstood you. Congratulations to me for proving the blindingly obvious!! 
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linkTouched by His Noodly Appendage
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baniaque1
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 20, 2007 10:35 AM |
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Quote:
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afaik, the counterspell costs a half of the hero`s initiative, maybe that is why i use it with rushing Caspar that usually has more spellpower than my Jhora, and it works (not always, especially when he has many wraiths)
Are you sure? I thought it was a whole turn and that it didn't affect enemy sorcery since they don't get to cast.
im not 100% sure if its the half or the whole turn, i think i can check it somehow, it looks for me like MotW and mass spells - half of the turn
sorcery reduces the interval (distance on ATB bar?) between casting spells, so when your opponent has it on expert lvl, that means he will cast his next spell faster (appear on the ATB bar closer to the left?), that is important when you are trying to lock him with counterspell, to be the first who acts
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted March 20, 2007 10:38 AM |
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Don't mention that Jhora Strategy using the Counterspell and counting on the faster casting , cause the difference between her and other heroes with sorcery is minimal. Also ArchLiches can take out your CounterSpell and give his hero the opportunity to cast , while you did nothing.
If he gets first turn he won't raise dead of course but he will summon his even mightier phoenix ! I think the battle will be decided by the mage guilds ...
The one that gets better spell combo will win probably, but I think Necro has better odds of getting good spells.
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baniaque1
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 20, 2007 10:40 AM |
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Well, I think that Jhora casting twice before the other hero acts is impossible actually - the largest ATB difference possible at start is 0.25. By the time a level 20 Jhora gets her action in that circumstance 0.75/11 = 0.68 (the minimum value the for the opposing hero's ATB). Jhora then gets sorcery bonus of 0.3 and needs to make up the remaining 0.7 before the other hero gets their remaining 0.32 in order to cast again before them. This is clearly impossible.
Edit: I just re-read your post and see that I misunderstood you. Congratulations to me for proving the blindingly obvious!!
pomo - does it mean i don`t have to reply ?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 20, 2007 10:43 AM |
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sorcery reduces the interval (distance on ATB bar?) between casting spells, so when your opponent has it on expert lvl, that means he will cast his next spell faster (appear on the ATB bar closer to the left?), that is important when you are trying to lock him with counterspell, to be the first who acts
That's where I was getting at, sorcery gives the bonus IF you cast the spell-doesn't in ths way counterspell prevent the sorcery bonus? I think so but right now I'm at work and I cannot check it, I'll return to post what I find in a few hours.
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Pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted March 20, 2007 10:44 AM |
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Well I suppose that's up to you, I misread your post and thought you meant double casting at the start of combat. I do agree with TowerLord though - the difference simply isn't big enough to be really worth it.
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linkTouched by His Noodly Appendage
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted March 20, 2007 10:51 AM |
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Creeping with dungoen is tricky: You really need to buff your hero first to creep effectively. He needs some arties and a lot of SP to creep effectively! Sinitar is especially good creeper, although going vayshan is safer (a lot more power at start, guaranteed warlock's luck which is extremely important..). Sinitar proves much moer useful in the longer run, though. And he starts with the allmighty eldritch arrow, which is good for creeping ^_^
Still, Vayshan has enough assassins to kill most things. They posion and stall shooters, then defend, and your spells do the rest. Very good earlygame advantage - probably you'll get marginal loses. Sinitar early with 10 mana won't be as good, which leads to the problem of running to the well often. Consider dark ritual, since on a map with few wells it's actually better than wasting 1 day to get to the well and another to get back.
I think dungeon is a great creeper ... but the hero I would choose is Yrwanna . Once you upgraded the Furys , slow walkers will make you no more problems , without using any magic... even faster walkers will be easily dealt with. for shooters you will have to use magic and sacrifice some scouts. Also building mage guilds can be delayed for a while thanks to those great Furys. So it will not actually be a MMR, but a devastating Destructive Magic week 3-4 rush. Destructive Magic is so much more realiable than Summoning and Dark ... Cause the worst combo(for Dungeon) you can get is Circle of Winter/Chain Lightning / Armageddon, and that is still very powerfull.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 20, 2007 11:03 AM |
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My favourite warlock, great for a magic only strategy with destructive, luck, enlightenment and sorcery. The good thing is that you need only a few enlightenment and sorcery basic skills so you can easily get adv logistics. Her intelligence is a real boon as taking enlightenment and hoping to get it early is a pain and a warlock NEEDS this mana. Then for larger maps you can ditch sorcery and go dark since it's a guaranteed mass slow.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 11:07 AM |
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I think dungeon is a great creeper ... but the hero I would choose is Yrwanna . Once you upgraded the Furys , slow walkers will make you no more problems , without using any magic... even faster walkers will be easily dealt with. for shooters you will have to use magic and sacrifice some scouts. Also building mage guilds can be delayed for a while thanks to those great Furys. So it will not actually be a MMR, but a devastating Destructive Magic week 3-4 rush. Destructive Magic is so much more realiable than Summoning and Dark ... Cause the worst combo(for Dungeon) you can get is Circle of Winter/Chain Lightning / Armageddon, and that is still very powerfull.
Oh, no. Yrwanna is the worst thing you can get, even Yrbeth is better  Seriously, you can kill 999999 zombies with 1 fury. Ofc, that's an extreme example, but if you can do it well with a normal pop of furies, boosting them with yrwanna is an overkill. You don't need it. You simply don't, since furies are extremely marginal units in player vs. player battles. And you don't want to creep fast walkers with furies, obviously (unless they are two hexed, that is). Sure, you can focus on furies, but what for? You won't kill more than magic-creeping warlock and in the endgame your furies will instantly die anyway. Furies are great against minos, zombies and so on - free exp. They are bad against fast one-hex walkers, bad against shooters (so fragile that even with tactics, the shooters' retaliation WILL kill some of them!), and TERRIBLE against caster creeps. Slowing the guilds is a terrible move aswell, you need to know what spells do you have, so you can search for/buy the correct +50% dam artifact. Destructive magic rush is indeed extremely devastating, but even in endgame your warlock is still powerful, although it takes a certain number of run-and-rehire to beat a powerful sylvan/haven/inferno player.
The creeping with warlock follows a certain pattern:
1. Slow walkers --> Furies, take all other units off the field, don't use magic.
2. Fast 1hex walkers/flyers ----> Take furies off the field, use deep hydras or shadow matriarchs if you have them, focus on spells.
3. Fast 2hex walkers/flyers ----> Place assassins and furies like that:
XA
FX
(A - assassin, F - fury)
use spells aswell.
4. Shooters - Use shadow matriarchs and spells for less dangerous shooters (matriarchs are quite durable and should survive some beating, use assassins ONLY and powerful empowered spells against more dangerous ones.
5. Casters - use 7 stacks of assassins/scouts and use your most powerful AoE spells. Empowered, obviously.
6. Fast creatures with breath attack - same as above.
Following this pattern results in marginal loses, and quick&powerful creeping. Easy 
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted March 20, 2007 11:19 AM |
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lool .. you have hydras , matriarchs and also build mage guilds fast ? you obviously are talking non-sense. of course, when you get those creatures, creeping is alot easier.
you also are mistaking badly about furys ... they will hit at least once , a powerfull blow especially if they are yrwanna's !
Anyway they'll be alot more usefull then boosted assassins, since assassins are only good for their poisson and that works with or without the boost.
Also Yrwanna starts with Intelligence , which is very important for dungeon, there's no way she's the worst dungeon hero for creeping!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 11:23 AM |
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sir TowerLord, I play mostly dungeon now, I've tried all the possible standards, and I think I *know* what I'm talking about  What't the problem with getting lvl3 guild plus ONE upgraded dwelling? (hydras' or matriarchs' one?) You can do it without much problem on poor maps, even.
Vayshan's assassins aren't meant to deal damage, but to suck it.
Furies never do *good* damage, my good sir, and after a while they are dead. I'm not talking about creeping here, since, as I said, you don't need to boost furies for creeping, they will kill every slow walker without loses anyway. Yrwanna - simple overkill.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted March 20, 2007 11:50 AM |
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sir TowerLord, I play mostly dungeon now, I've tried all the possible standards, and I think I *know* what I'm talking about What't the problem with getting lvl3 guild plus ONE upgraded dwelling? (hydras' or matriarchs' one?) You can do it without much problem on poor maps, even.
Vayshan's assassins aren't meant to deal damage, but to suck it.
Furies never do *good* damage, my good sir, and after a while they are dead. I'm not talking about creeping here, since, as I said, you don't need to boost furies for creeping, they will kill every slow walker without loses anyway. Yrwanna - simple overkill.
we are talking about different things here... MMR as the chinese described means building lvl 5 guild very fast ( around week 2 , day 3-4 at most ) ... I was saying you can delay that with dungeon until week 3-4 cause you can creep anything with lower spells , and you said delaying is bad ... and that you said you build matriarchs and hydras... so what am i to understand of that ?
Furys always do good damage , especially if they are yrwannas furys ! Add to that the nice attack of the warlock and you have a full picture of a very nice bonus in the start of the combat ( maybe even take out an entire stack if lucky).
Killing slow walkers with furies is easy indeed . Doing Zombies or Golems can be done with 1 fury cause they have no morale, other slow walkers like Conscripts, demons and overseers is alot trickyer and you might lose your hero due to a stupid morale ! So you need that big stack of furys to take out fast those creatures . So I don't see the overkill , it's just a very nice way of killing without losing mana. Anyway i don't really enjoy 1 fury/ sprite battles they are really boring!
Fast Walkers like Dancers , can also be killed very nicely with furies and a few splitted scouts without losing a fury! Anyway what I am trying to tell you is that Yrwanna is great for creeping, and gives nice bonus in final battle too, alot nicer than Vashyan's bonus.
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Pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted March 20, 2007 11:54 AM |
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I think you must be doing something wrong if you get caught by a init 8 speed 4 walker with one fury, morale or not - if you're smart it doesn't happen. Their good morale still won't make them go twice in a row, so just run away if that happens.
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linkTouched by His Noodly Appendage
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 11:58 AM |
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I was saying you can delay that with dungeon until week 3-4 cause you can creep anything with lower spells , and you said delaying is bad ... and that you said you build matriarchs and hydras... so what am i to understand of that ?
Simple, you need to build level 3 guild fast, then try to reach deep hydras or shadow matriarchs as your next highest priority.
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Furys always do good damage , especially if they are yrwannas furys ! Add to that the nice attack of the warlock and you have a full picture of a very nice bonus in the start of the combat ( maybe even take out an entire stack if lucky).
Sure, but what for? You can creep without that +A/D for furies equally well and use some useful hero instead. Kythra for melee, Vayshan for earlygame power, Sinitar if you plan to use magic a lot..
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Killing slow walkers with furies is easy indeed . Doing Zombies or Golems can be done with 1 fury cause they have no morale, other slow walkers like Conscripts, demons and overseers is alot trickyer and you might lose your hero due to a stupid morale !
It's still perfectly do-able with 1 fury, you just need to be more careful and place them properly so even morale won't screw things up.
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So you need that big stack of furys to take out fast those creatures . So I don't see the overkill , it's just a very nice way of killing without losing mana. Anyway i don't really enjoy 1 fury/ sprite battles they are really boring!
I don't enjoy it either, it's just an example. uhh, you still don't see the overkill? Basically Yrwanna speeds up creeping slow creeps a bit and that's all. You won't have much use of furies later. So, the extra +A/D for them is irrelevant.
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Fast Walkers like Dancers , can also be killed very nicely with furies and a few splitted scouts without losing a fury! Anyway what I am trying to tell you is that Yrwanna is great for creeping, and gives nice bonus in final battle too, alot nicer than Vashyan's bonus.
What bonus? Any hero can get intelligence (and any warlock should ;p). You mean that +8 def for furies or something similiar? They are still extremely fragile even with that bonus, unfortunately. They won't win a fight for you, you know.. And I would be afraid to fight dancers with furies. One mistake and the redheads are gone..
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 20, 2007 12:16 PM |
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I have some experience with dungeon dating some patches ago and I can tell you for sure that there is a difference for various reasons. Not too many games but I've tried Yrwanna and Eruina some times.
Creeping? Yes it helps more against fast units there you might have sustained casualties and the extra furies are welcome. Also it will help to kill really big stacks as they come in stacks of 3 and you must kill them in a limited amount of time if the battlefield has no obstacle.
In a duel of heroes? Even then for the few hits they'll manage, the difference is noticeable plus they are easily resurrected with raise dead, many of them. In you have luck and it triggers you'll be glad you had that specialty.
Sure you can get intelligence but just one lvl of enlightenment can screw up your lvl-up offered skills if you get scholar and arcane intution all the time. But will you get it in time? Will you get intelligence as fast or won't you be offered it? Also not starting with destructive can give you the time to see what master of ... you wish to specialize on, some times I am offered them constantly while the new skill is not desirerable.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2007 12:32 PM |
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Trust me, Yrwanna is not good. Later on you never creep with creatures unless you are might warlock or the enemies are slow walkers.. if you have 50 archmages against you, no yrwanna will help you! Magic, on the other hand, will. I think it's quite clear that creeping with magic is more potent than creeping with melee force
And the endgame battle.. you really are joking, Elvin, right? You want to cast raise dead? Against the horde of light/dark spells thrown at you/enemy's army? Either your furies will end puppeted (especially yrwanna's ones) or your army will become more and more weak due to usage of light magic by your enemy! The gap becomes too big to handle if your enemy throws in spells like endurance or righteous might.. well, light isn't even half as bad as dark anyway. Against a darkmage, destructive is - unfortunately - the ONLY way! And Haven, Inferno, Necropolis AND Academy all have quite easy access to dark magic..
I'm not sure what to do with the dwarves, though. If he gets the stupid minor boots of resistance, magic resistance skill plus dwarven luck, he'll be resisting your spells half of the time (half damage) plus the rune of elemental immunity lasts the whole battle (another half damage if you are unlucky), PLUS some of the creatures are already immune to some elements or magic-proof! If he throws in minor artifacts of elemental protection (like the cape that lowers the damage from earth spells by 50%), your "all-powerful" implosion will just make him laugh! And he will just counter it with rune of ressurection and the ressurection spell! Magic is worthless against dwarves ~~
I'm starting to think that dwarves are indeed one of the most powerful factions if played by a good player.. That's perhaps why they are so expensive.
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