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| Thread: Regarding game balance.. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Jkwo
Hired Hero
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posted January 23, 2007 02:05 PM |
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Quote:
Actually I know of something I would like to be changed:
You can only retreat from combat at the start of each turn.
As soon as you do any action - move, wait, attack, cast spell - you can't retreat until the start of the next turn. This would be the end for the bolt-and-retreat tactics.
That's a terrific idea.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 23, 2007 02:17 PM |
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Bring it up, God2.
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God2
Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
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posted January 23, 2007 03:57 PM |
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Edited by God2 at 23:48, 23 Jan 2007.
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First attempt. Please give your opinions, and remember this is all subject to be changed.
Inferno rebalance:
- Imp/familiar cost reduced by 10 gold each
- Gog/Magog dwelling growth increased from 8 to 9
- Pit Lord cost reduced from 700 to 600, hitpoints increased from 45 to 50.
Version 0.03
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www.shoryuken.com
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 23, 2007 04:33 PM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 16:38, 23 Jan 2007.
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I think ATT bonus for Archdevil would is too high.
Perhaps give Pit lords 2nd demon raising (to emphasise inferno specific skill).
Phoenixes could use slight bonuses to stats to offset the -50% growth.
And when doing the balance changes its generally a good idea to change as few units as possible (better changing 5 units considerably than 50 units slightly).
Also, it might be a good idea to weaken all lv7 upgraded units (imho they are too strong and make other units look like cannon fodder, in H5 they are much better balanced)
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God2
Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
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posted January 23, 2007 05:50 PM |
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I am not seeking to rebalance every aspect of the entire game, as this would require a lot of time, and a lot of judges. I've never heard anyone state that the game is unbalanced because level 7s are too good before.
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www.shoryuken.com
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 23, 2007 05:58 PM |
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I didnt say they are unbalanced, just that the version where they have reduced power (H5) seems better to me.
Anyway, forget about that part, it was the least relevant of all(just an idea).
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 23, 2007 07:41 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 19:41, 23 Jan 2007.
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Won't Conflux become too weak when the growth of Firebirds/Phoenixes is halved?
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God2
Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
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posted January 23, 2007 07:50 PM |
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Quote:
Won't Conflux become too weak when the growth of Firebirds/Phoenixes is halved?
Mh.. I understood that this was the reason they were overpowered in the first place. Perhaps that is not the case after all?
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www.shoryuken.com
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 23, 2007 07:51 PM |
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Ecoris points it out.
If u change a little thing in a town, u would prolly destroy the "whole".
How the hell will u be able to win against Inferno with all these "improvements"? Maybe on Small maps...but XL....I doubt any town will have a chance.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Jkwo
Hired Hero
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posted January 23, 2007 08:05 PM |
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Edited by Jkwo at 20:05, 23 Jan 2007.
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Quote:
Won't Conflux become too weak when the growth of Firebirds/Phoenixes is halved?
I agree, but I heard someone mention putting their base production to 1/week, then installing a building that allows +1 firebird growth, for a total of 3.
It doesn't seem to me that inferno needs any stat changes.. I would just charge a bit less for some monsters.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 23, 2007 08:23 PM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 20:42, 23 Jan 2007.
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I dont think any of the original 8 towns needs balance (yes inferno can be slightly harder to play with, but that is its charm after all, beating someone with inferno feels good .
About the other aspects of changes, i mostly used spell balance patch (idea was to balance the spell schools so they are about equally usefull, but after a while i decided to go back to standard spells as well and discard the patch)
this are examples of what was in that old patch:
School Changes:
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Dimension Door - (Fire, renamed to GATE)
Magic Arrow - (Air)
Anti-Magic - (Fire)
Resurrection - (Water)
Disrupting Ray - (Fire, renamed to SUNRAY)
Destroy Undead - (Water)
Remove Obstacle - (Air)
Dispel - (Air)
Visions - (Fire)
Mirth - (Fire)
Sorrow - (Water)
Misfortune - (Earth)
Level Changes:
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Town Portal - from 4 to 5
Death Ripple - from 2 to 3
Magic Mirror - from 5 to 4
Sacrifice - from 5 to 4
Disrupting Ray - from 2 to 4
Berserk - from 4 to 5
Blind - from 2 to 3
Remove Obstacle - from 2 to 1
Haste - from 1 to 2
Slow - from 1 to 2
Frenzy - from 4 to 3
Slayer - from 4 to 2
Misfortune - from 3 to 2
Sorrow - from 4 to 3
Force Field - from 3 to 2
Weakness - from 2 to 1
"Protection from" spells - to level 1
Shield - from 1 to 2
Damage/Effect changes:
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Frost Ring changed from 10*SP to 16*SP
Fireball changed from 10*SP to 17*SP
Ice Bolt changed from 20*SP to 24*SP
Lightning changed from 25*SP to 28*SP
Inferno changed from 10*SP to 21*SP
Death Ripple changed from 5*SP to 11*SP
Destroy Undead changed from 10*SP to 12*SP
Fireshield damage changed from 20/25/30% to 25/35/50%
Magic Mirror reflection chance changed from 20/30/40% to 25/50/75%
Disrupting Ray defense reduction changed from 3/4/5 to 6/9/12
Landmine changed from 10*SP to 14*SP
Firewall changed from 10*SP to 15*SP
Precision ranged atack bonus changed from 3/6/6 to 4/8/8
Slayer attack bonus changed from 8 to 10
Counterstrike changed from 1/2/2 to 2/3/3
Chain Lightning changed from 40*SP to 43*SP
Meteor Shower changed from 25*SP to 27*SP
Resurrection changed from 50*SP to 52*SP
Animate Dead changed from 50*SP to 52*SP
Hypnotise changed from 25*SP to 45*SP
Prayer effect changed from 2/4/4 to 3/4/4
"Protection from" spells damage reduction changed from 30/50/50% to 40/70/70%
Misfortune changed from 1/2/2 to 2/3/3
Magic Arrow changed from 10*SP to 12*SP
Implosion changed from 75*SP to 80*SP
Armageddon changed from 50*SP to 55*SP
Mirth changed from 1/2/2 to 2/3/3
Sorrow changed from 1/2/2 to 2/3/3
Fortune changed from 1/2/2 to 2/3/3
Air shield changed from 25/50/50% to 30/60/60%
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God2
Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
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posted January 23, 2007 08:48 PM |
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Edited by God2 at 20:48, 23 Jan 2007.
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Quote:
Ecoris points it out.
If u change a little thing in a town, u would prolly destroy the "whole".
How the hell will u be able to win against Inferno with all these "improvements"? Maybe on Small maps...but XL....I doubt any town will have a chance.
Well, considering I never get an answer from the good players when I ask about the strength of Inferno, and considering their stats ARE below most towns, I attempted to change some things.
Could you be a bit specific to what exactly makes Inferno into the strongest town in the world after my changes?
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www.shoryuken.com
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 23, 2007 09:15 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 21:16, 23 Jan 2007.
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I'm no experienced online player. I just feel, well you've got 9 factions. NINE. StarCraft has only got 3.
The patch improved the level 2 and 3 creatures of Fortress a little. Just a little so they became acceptable, especially the lizard men/warriors were improved with better damage and higher growth. Even before that I did not feel that Fortress was significantly underpowered. The cheap costs for dwellings (I usually played at 200%) made me select them quite often. You picked Bron as your starting hero to get yourself a good starting army. Had the difficulty level been 130% I would perhaps not have chosen Fortress; but at 200% you start with nothing so Fortress was a reasonable choice.
Is Inferno underpowered? I don't know. Personally I dislike Inferno, but as I said I have no experience of online games (and improved online gaming is surely the aim of such a balance patch) and I'm not good at demon farming. I know that Angelito is fond of Efreet though.
Spells is a very different discussion. It's obvious that many spells are too crappy to ever be used. Changing their levels and effects could be interesting.
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God2
Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
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posted January 23, 2007 11:50 PM |
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Edited by God2 at 23:58, 23 Jan 2007.
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Second revision..
Inferno rebalance:
- Imp/familiar cost reduced by 10 gold each
- Gog/Magog dwelling growth increased from 8 to 9
- Pit Lord cost reduced from 700 to 600, hitpoints increased from 45 to 50.
Version 0.03
I also propose to boost the damage of fire wall and land mines, as these spells are some of the least used spells.
Oh, by the way. The changes made to the Fortress faction were not small. +2 atk/def and weakness is a good improvement to the flies. The Lizardmen gained 1 extra growth, 1 more average damage, 3 hitpoints, and 1 more atk/def, now that's a lot for a level 2 unit.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 24, 2007 12:25 AM |
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I am a pretty experienced H3 player when it comes to gaming vs. AI - I never played online, but I did play Heroes 3 daily vs. computer for some 3 years, so I have a good share of experience with that.
My experience with Inferno is very clear: There is a deffinite resource problem. The way it manifestated for me was always the same: I could only afford to build Devils very late in game, and only later to recruit them, which ment that Devils were essentially useless due to poor damage output. This problem probably bounds in two facts:
1. Forbidden Palace is extremely expensive. 15.000 Gold + 10 Wood + 10 Ore + 20 Mercury would deffinitely be extremely taxing in early game - especially because you needed that Mercury for upgrading your pathetic Gogs (in order to give them just a hint of usefulness) and Pit Lords (same)! Upgrading the Forbidden Palace was an even longer shot - 20.000 Gold and another full 20 Mercury would mean that once you finally could afford to upgrade it, you would have neither Mercury nor Gold to finance recruiting those Devils.
2. Gold was deffinitely in shortage. Resource Sile was a luxury one could rarely afford to spare, and since Inferno hosted so many mediocre units (Familiar, Magog, Demon, Pit Lord) you had to scrape together anything you could manage and build Efreet as soon as possible in any way in order to hold on for dear life. Since Efreeti were fairly costly in recruitment (especially if you managed to build them in weak 1, which I seem to recal was possible with a bit of luck, even at 200 %, which I always played), this would tax your gold reserve even further.
I therefore think the key to ballance Inferno would be to lower gold cost of units slightly and to lower cost of Forbidden Palace to open up for recruitment of Devils at an earlier stage in the game, thus boosting the overall Inferno army. The problem is that Inferno needs the Devils to compensate for their slow and lousy low-level units. Lowering the Mercury consumption for Forbidden Palace would be a great start - or change it to 10 / 30 instead of 20 / 20 - in fact, exactly this latter change was made for Tower to make Titans more available in late game, and it worked perfectly! One might also consider lowering costs of Devils and Arch Devils to 2500 Gold + 1 Mercury and 4000 Gold + 2 Mercury, respectively. I believe that would be a great start to throw Inferno back into the game.
Other changes to stats that would be great: +5 HP to Pit Lords. +1 Max Damage to Magogs (they are, after all, the only ranged unit of Inferno!).
Btw. now we talk about changes - there is one thing that HAS to be changed:
The resource cost of the Cyclops Cave!
It is completely insane that BOTH Cyclops AND Behemoth require crystal for their dwelling. Since Cyclops require a tremendous 20 Crystal for their unupgraded dwelling, and Behemoth only require 10, this essentially means that you will never affort to build Cyclops before extremely late game when you play Stronghold.
One could suggest many ways to change this. The feature that would be most fair and would change game ballance the least would probably be:
Change price from: 20 Ore + 20 Crystal + 3500 Gold to
1. 20 Ore + 10 Mercury + 10 Sulfur + 3500 Gold (Most favorable solution towards Stronghold players.)
2. 20 Ore + 20 Mercury + 3500 Gold (Less favorable but much better than Crystal.)
3. 20 Ore + 20 Sulfur + 3500 Gold (Same as above.)
4. 20 Ore + 20 Gems + 3500 Gold (Least favorable but even still much better than Crystal.)
These changes will still mean high resource requirements for first Cyclops dwelling, but since Mercury and Sulfur is less in demand for Stronghold, it'll be more reasonable. Gems are required for Ogre Magi, but one could make this choice in order not to make it too easy for Stronghold. A combination of Mercury + Sulfur is of course the easiest approach for Stronghold, because that lowers requirements of any single ressource.
Alternatively, one could move precious resource burdon from basic building to upgraded building, to allow for early accumulation until resources are more abundant.
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What will happen now?
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God2
Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
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posted January 24, 2007 12:33 AM |
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Thanks for the input, alcibiades.
Regarding Cyclops Cave, I think it still should have a difficult price since you can field both Rocs and Behemoths on day 2. Gems would probably be a good idea as you said, to make it more of a choice between Orge Magi and Cyclopes.
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www.shoryuken.com
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 24, 2007 12:13 PM |
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Oh, and one more thing - about the changing of Spells. There are some things one should be very careful about when it comes to modding spells. I will here give some of my input to the post of Yasmiel some posts back. I will start out by the ever disputet ...
Town Portal
The Town Portal spell seems to be ever controversal. Most of the time, you'll here the statement that "Town Portal is very unbalanced", but
actually, that's not quite true - Town Portal is the same for everybody, and therefore is balanced. However, Town Portal is an extremely powerful spell, and is in many ways game-defining in the sense that the difference between win and loss would be the Town Portal spell.
That is, however, not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, most XL maps would be no fun to play without Town Portal. This just means that Town Portal has to be equally evailable to all factions. This specifically
means that:
- All factions need to have a level 4 Mage Guild.
- All factions should have equal access to Earth Magic skill. Thus, accessibility should be equal for all Might Classes and all Magic Classes - however, Magic Classes could perfectly well have higher accessibility (chance of acquiring skill on level up) than Might Classes.
The next question is, then: Should Town Portal be a level 5 spell? Well, Town Portal is the most powerfull spell in the game, so from that point of view one would answer yes. I will, however, say no to this. Why? Because Town Portal has to be fairly accessible. Not too accessible, mind you, but the majority of Heroes 3 L and XL maps are in fact unplayable without Town Portal. (Of course most skilled Mapmakers would control exactly when and where you'd acquire the Town Portal.) Therefore, I think it sits fairly well on level 4 - if you change it to level 5, for instance, you will have to provide all factions a level 5 Mage Guild to obtain balance. Moving Town Portal to level 5 will also mean that you essentially have to build the very ressource requiring Level 5 Mage Guild, something I normally skipped when playing, which I think was fine - the level 5 guild was a luxury, you could only afford in special circumstances. Moving Town Portal will change that, which will affect the overall game play a lot!
Spell Schools and Spell Types
When determining which schools spells should belong to, it would be nice to do some themes for the elements, like:
Air: Transmutation, Travel, Illusions, Mind Affecting, Holy
Water: Blessings, Healing
Fire: Curses, Divination
Earth: Transmutation, Conjuration, Animation, Death
I would therefore vouch for the spells being divided something like this:
Level 1 Spells:
Air: Haste, Dispell
Water: Bless, Bloodlust, Summon Boat
Fire: Curse, Magic Arrow, Scuttle Boat
Earth: Slow, Stoneskin
+ Protections
Level 2 Spells:
Air: Remove Obstacle, Lightning Bolt, Destroy Undead
Water: Cure, Fortune, Ice Bolt
Fire: Blind, Weakness, Firewall, Visions
Earth: Shield, Quicksand, Death Ripple
Level 3 Spells:
Air: Air Shield, Forgetfullness, Hypnotize, Teleport
Water: Mirth, Frost Ring, Anti Magic
Fire: Misfortune, Landmine, Fireball
Earth: Animate Dead, Force Field, Earthquake
Level 4 Spells:
Air: Clone, Frenzy, Chain Lightning
Water: Prayer, Resurrection, Counterstrike, Slayer
Fire: Sorrow, Fireshield, Inferno
Earth: Town Portal, Meteor Shower
+ Summon Elementals? (or should the be level 3?)
Level 5 Spells:
Air: Berzerk, Dimension Door
Water: Magic Mirror, Fly
Fire: Armageddon, Waterwalk
Earth: Sacrifice, Implosion (+ maybe Town Portal)
This scheme pretty generally follows the above - to have cursings in fire magic (weakness, sorrow, misfortune, blind); to have blessings and healing in water (cure, bless, prayer, resurrection); mind affecting and illusion in air (forgetfulness, frenzy, berzerk, clone); and to have death and animation in earth (animate dead, sacrifice, force field, etc.). The destructive spells of course follow their respective element. I know there are some deviations in order to try to balance the number of spells evenly on the schools.
Spell Effects
I agree with most of the changes listed by Yasmiel, but I think one should stick to Power multipliers that are integers of 5 (because that's what's used in the game). Particularly I'd like to see the following changes:
Frost Ring changed to 10 x Power / 15 x Power / 20 x Power
Fireball changed to 10 x Power / 15 x Power / 20 x Power
Inferno changed from 10 x Power / 20 x Power / 30 x Power
Armageddon changed to 30 x Power / 40 x Power / 50 x Power
Death Ripple changed to 5 x Power / 10 x Power / 15 x Power
Destroy Undead changed to 5 x Power / 10 x Power / 15 x Power
Fireshield damage changed from 20/25/30% to 25/35/50% like Yasmiel said.
Magic Mirror reflection chance changed from 20/30/40% to 25/50/75% like Yasmiel said.
Landmine changed to 10 x Power / 15 x Power / 20 x Power
Firewall changed to 10 x Power / 10 x Power / 15 x Power
Meteor Shower changed from 25 x Power to 30 x Power
Hypnotise changed from 25 x Power to 50 x Power
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What will happen now?
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 03:17 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 15:20, 24 Jan 2007.
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Quote:
Inferno rebalance:
- Imp/familiar cost reduced by 10 gold each
- Gog/Magog dwelling growth increased from 8 to 9
- Pit Lord cost reduced from 700 to 600, hitpoints increased from 45 to 50.
Well those changes are at the same scale as those made to the fortress units as I see it. They have my vote if there is a general feeling that Inferno is underpowered. If someone doesn't think so tell me how to play properly with Inferno.
It is important that we consider how much we propose to change. Now the cyclops cave and the spell system is being included as well. I wish that some of the online players will join the discussion and point out the overpowered aspects that needs adjustment. It would also be good to improve some of the unused spells to give the game more diversity.
Cyclops cave: I think stronghold is powerful enough as they are. Making their level 6 creatures available would only add to that.
Town Portal: Of course town portal is 'balanced' in the sense that "it's the same for everyone", but it is a game-breaker if one player has it and the other doesn't. I don't really see any way around banning it and therefore I don't think we should change what levels the factions can build their mage guilds to.
What I would find interesting would be if changes were made that benefit the mage classes. Might heroes are generally held to be better. One of the reasons is that you don't need a lot of spell power and knowledge when you're going to cast haste/slow anyway. All such tactical spells can be cast with equal strength by might heroes. And getting air/earth magic is not difficult because of the skill groups; they really favor might heroes.
Personally I find the magic heroes more interesting to play. Having high attack and defense as well as offense/armorer is not challenging; those bonuses always apply you 'just' have to move your units around and cast haste/slow to gain initiative. A hero with a lot of spell points and high level spells have to make choices of what to do.
Some of the most memorable battles I've fought were with magic heroes.
The sad thing is that it's the same few spells that are used over and over again.
So how can we change the spells to favor magic heroes (if we want to do that at all)?
The radical solution is to ban wisdom for might heroes. One could also ban some or all of the magic skills as an alternative.
Raising the costs of haste/slow and other frequently used tactical spells will give magic heroes and advantage due to higher wisdom.
Moving the mentioned spells to higher levels.
Improving the effect of spell power dependent spells as Alcibiades and yasmiel suggested would also help.
The spell system and faction balance are to independent discussions that we should keep apart. They are totally seperate issues.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 24, 2007 03:32 PM |
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*Don't*
*ban*
*Town Portal*
No ... Seriously - you might not understand this, if you only play online - but if you remove Town Portal, you destroy the game for anyone who likes to play epic-style maps in single-player mode.
Anyway, one more thing - about the magic schools and changing which spells belong where - one should add that it's only an attempt at making the magic schools more even, and will not change much for gameplay.
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What will happen now?
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 03:42 PM |
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I guess you can ban town portal on the map you play or disable it in the random map template. Then everyone will be happy.
To make the schools more even just pick one of the good air spells and one of the good earth spells and move them to fire/water.
E.g. move resurrection to water and view air or dimension door to fire. Perhaps you would want to move another earth spell to fire.
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