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| Thread: Regarding game balance.. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 24, 2007 03:51 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 17:57, 24 Jan 2007.
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I think there is no need to change the mage guilds of any town. I don't know what maps / templates u all play, but u will find more than 1 town on that map u could conquer. No need to build the mage guild in your starting town.
Stronghold and fortress are considered mainly as might towns. So I think it is ok they only have a level 3 mage guild. Castle (humans, paladins) have always been seen as a mixture of might and magic (can be seen in many other fantasy games), so the level 4 mage guild makes pretty much sense to me. The level 5 guild of Inferno is discussable though...
About the strength of Inferno:
I am not a very good Inferno player I have to admit, but I know many players underestimate this town very much. You can fight a level 7 dwelling with only imps, gogs and 2 efreet. You will have many imps in week 1, coz the level 1 dwelling has about the same value as a crypt (or as skeletons/wagons on rough terrain) in the rmg template. Easy to have 100 imps day 4 / 5. Those little babys are pretty fast on their native terrain and can do a good amount of damage when u have enough of them. I find it much more difficult to flag a level 7 dwelling with fortress week 1.
If u change some things refering to that town, u may unbalance the whole thing in itself. The patch of SAG for example, where u can find crypts on lava now. On one hand, it sounds nice, coz u will have the option to get more money. On the other hand, this will reduce the amount of level 1 and level 2 dwells in your area. But Inferno needs a lot of those low level troops, not only for fights in early stage of game, but of course for demon hoarding later on. A rich Inferno player will never win vs a Castle player, coz he will lack in troops.
A hugh stack of demons is the biggest threat in an Inferno army, if played well. If u now make the devils even stronger, the pitlords stronger/cheaper and maybe even the imps stronger (by growth, prize or whatever), the whole army will be a threat then. This is why it doesn't make sense to compare units of same level from different towns. They are meant to be NOT equal. The whole army gives a full picture, including their costs, building order and specialities.
Stronghold is meant to be a brute might town. That's why u get your biggest monster that early. Rush is the keyword. So the player has to decide: Either take a few of my monsters and rush the map / opponent, or build cyclops instead for getting a good shooter and make a slower start.
The bigger the map, the more advantage the towns with the expensive lev7 dwells become (Rampart, Dungeon, Inferno, Tower, Castle).
If u think 20 mercury for the devil dwelling is too costly, what u say about portal of glory? 10 of each resource? Same for upgrade?
Look in building order of Dungeon. Tons of sulfur needed.
There are some "strange" things in building order of some towns, which could be worth thinking about.
1. Why do I have to build a level 4 dwelling before I am able to build the level 3 building in that town?? (Castle)
2. A resource silo is needed to change an average unit into one of the most dangerous units of the game (Gorgons)
3. Why do I need to have a tavern (only good for rumours and hiring heroes) to be able to upgrade a level 1 unit? (Fortress)
4. A resource silo in each town should give the resource the level 7 unit needs. Wood and Ore are rarely a problem.
Only a few things which just came into my mind...there may even be more...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 24, 2007 04:40 PM |
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For example, why inferno gets ammo cart in its blacksmith when it only has 1 shooter that has "enought" shots anyway -.-
Unfortunatelly i dont think thats changeable with traits files 
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 04:58 PM |
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I agree that very little, if anything, should be done with the Inferno troops.
I looked through the spelltraits.txt. You can't make the effect of spell power dependent on what level the corresponding magic school is held at. Only the fixed bonus can be set for each of none, basicm advanced and expert.
And while I browsed through the file I saw that teleport costs 15 at no water magic skill and 12 at basic. That as it should be but then it's lowered further to 6 and 3 for advanced and expert respectively. I even confirmed this in-game.
I've not seen this before so perhaps it's just a result of all my editing and reimporting of other of the .txt files but I've never meddled with this one before. Can anyone confirm this? (I can't bother to reinstall just to check, though I'll have to soon to clean up all the mess I've made  ).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 24, 2007 05:51 PM |
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@ Ecoris> The Teleport bug has been well-known for me, and was indeed in the game for long. I think they corrected it in one of the patches, but I'm not positive about that. 3 SP for expert Teleport was a very valuaple spell.
And too bad that you can't make damage multiplier depend on level.
@Angelito> About the Inferno: You are very true that tampering with a lot of things at the same time easily throws the game off balance. My main problem with Inferno would be that the Palace was too expensive, but then, Inferno was not my favored faction either, so even though I have played a good share of Inferno towns in my time, maybe I didn't master it fully.
Special note on the Portal Of Glory: Even though it might seem a bit contradictory, 10 of each of the precious resources is in many ways much easier to afford that 20 of one of them, because you use less of each of them. First off, getting 10 of 1 resource is pretty easy on not-too-resource scarce maps. Secondly, you will need Gems to recruit Angels (remember however, that this was only added because the Angel, that originally didn't require any precious resources, came at too low a cost!) - and when you only use 10 Gems for the building, chances are less that you will actually drain your reserve. On the other hand, when you need 20 for the building, it will take you longer to build up that amount, and once you've used it, the reserve is drained, and you will therefore only slowly build up a new reserve if you recruit at the same time. In the same line of thought, one could argue that Archangel should indeed cost 5000 Gold + 1 of each precious ressource, instead of 3 (!) Gems, which is pretty nasty.
And Castle Silo provided Wood and Ore because you in the original version of the game had no need for precious resources for recruiting units.
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What will happen now?
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 06:22 PM |
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I don't know what was thinking who voted "It's allready 100% balanced".
We have overpowered Conflux and weak Fortress and Stronghold...
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 07:22 PM |
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Edited by HeymlicH at 19:24, 24 Jan 2007.
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I think the only thing that is really overpowered are the necros, but I don't see a good way to change this.
One thing I really dislike in H3 are the marketplaces. I liked it more the way it was in H1: I need 10 gems and have only 9 - bad luck. This offered more options for interesting map design, like the small maps with only one gem mine.
However, I think 99% of players wouldn't like this change, so I would say: It is good as it is.
Quote:
I don't know what was thinking who voted "It's allready 100% balanced".
We have overpowered Conflux and weak Fortress and Stronghold...
I can tell you what I was thinking: "Fortress and Stronghold are pretty strong."  I really don't see how these two can be weak.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 24, 2007 08:57 PM |
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"And too bad that you can't make damage multiplier depend on level."
It can still be emulated trough the damage bonus for spells at basic/adv/expert level (for example giving +150 damage to implosion has the same effect as giving it +2 SP multiplier).
Stronghold and fortress surely aren't weak in my eyes )
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 10:15 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 22:16, 24 Jan 2007.
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Yes, the fixed bonus can be set for each skill level. But this will not benefit mages rather the opposite because the relative effect of spell power is reduced. But changes could be made to make the spells you never use more attractive.
Edit: And the teleport bug spell has apparently never been fixed; it's still there in H3 complete.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 24, 2007 10:52 PM |
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Yes, i realise the point, i guess starting sp multiplier can be set up to be more powerfull for certain spells since that is the only way to give benefit to mages.
Another point of patching i was thinking of is that we should perhaps remove the skill progression table (lv10+) and keep only the basic table that is used for levels 2-9. That way there would be more difference between heroes. barbarians would have more attack, beastmasters more defense, wizadrs more knowledge and warlocks more power. current table pretty much becomes the same for all classes after they reach level 10.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 11:31 PM |
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Yes, the stats tend to 'flatten out'. Arties and boosters increase this effect (or at least they improve some random skill). Might heroes are better because of their slightly better stats and their better starting armies. Additionally they'll pick up wisdom at level 6 so it doesn't benefit mages that they start with it. Of course these remarks are aimed at main heroes; some mages make valuable seconds. A greater difference between the hero types would be interesting.
Because the damage multiplier for spells will always be the same one could consider raising it slightly but on the other hand reduce or remove the fixed bonus; mages would benefit from that due to their higher spell power.
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God2
Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
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posted January 25, 2007 01:25 AM |
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I don't know if preventing might heroes from getting wisdom is the greatest idea. That is like removing offence/armorer from casters. However, increasing the multiplier on spells to make a high spellpower, as well as modifying the 10+ level charts seems like good ideas to me.
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www.shoryuken.com
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 25, 2007 11:16 AM |
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I always say ... Always go for possibilities rather than restrictions. That makes more and better game play.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 25, 2007 11:45 AM |
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I totally agree.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 25, 2007 12:14 PM |
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Yes I agree too. Otherwise we could just "play a game of chess".
Okay here are some suggestions, they are not meant as anything final at all, they are just meant to give us something to discuss:
SP cost of haste and slow increased to 8.
Magic arrow: power * 15 points of damage. No fixed bonus.
Lightning bolt: power * 30 points of damage. Fixed bonuses: 0,15,30.
Meteor shower: power * 30 points of damage. Bonuses: no changes.
Implosion: power * 100 points of damage. No bonuses.
Fire wall: power * 15 points of damage. Bonuses: no changes.
Fireball: power * 15 points of damage. No bonus changes.
Land mine ?
Inferno: power * 15 points of damage. No bonus changes.
Ice bolt: power * 25 points of damage. Bonuses: 0,10,25
Frost ring: power * 15 points of damage. No bonus changes.
Teleport: SP cost fixed.
The idea is that the power of earth/air damage spells is reduced for might heroes but remains about the same for magic heroes due to their higher power. Water/fire are improved slightly.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 25, 2007 01:36 PM |
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It seems to me there's a rather wide gap from Implosion (100 x) down to Meteor Shower (30 x). I'd probably aim for something like:
Implosion (5) - 80 x Power + 1 / 2 / 4 x base
Armageddon (4) - 60 x Power + 0.5 / 1 / 2 x base
Chain Lightning (4) - 50 x Power + 0.75 / 1.5 / 3 x base
Meteor Shower (4) - 40 x Power + 1 / 2 / 4 x base
Inferno (4) - 30 x Power + 0.5 / 1 / 2 x base
Fireball (3) - 20 x Power + 0.5 / 1 / 2 x base
Frost Ring (3) - 15 x Power + 1.5 / 3 / 6 x base
Land Mine (3) - 20 x Power + 0.5 / 1 / 2 x base
Fire Wall (2) - 15 x Power + 0.5 / 1 / 2 x base
Lightning Bolt (2) - 25 x Power + 0.75 / 1.5 / 3 x base
Ice Bolt (2) - 20 x Power + 1.5 / 3 / 6 x base
Magic Arrow - 10 x Power + 1 / 2 / 3 x base
This is supposed to be read like:
Implosion: 80 x Power + 80 / 160 / 320 depending on mastery.
Chain Lightning: 50 x Power + 37 / 75 / 150 depending on mastery.
I like the idea to separate the similar spells of same level a bit from each other (as they did in Heroes 5). Thus, it's be fine to have the damage multiplier of Ice Bolt and Frost Ring be a bit lower than their respective counterparts, but to have a higher bonus damage.
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God2
Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
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posted January 25, 2007 03:34 PM |
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Edited by God2 at 15:45, 25 Jan 2007.
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Good suggestions, although I would like to mention a couple of things.
First of all, if land mine and firewall are going to be used, they must have higher damage output than other damage spells of equal level. Why would you create a firewall that the opponent "might" choose to walk through, when you could just drop a fireball/lightning bolt in their heads for the same or higher damage?
Secondly, Inferno should probably have a higher damage output than fireball, since it is one level higher, and in many situations, the added radius will be a curse as much as a boon.
Thirdly, perhaps magic arrow should have bonus damage to make sure even might heroes can deal "some" direct spell damage. After all, magic arrow is only really useful in early map cleaning, not later in the game as better damage spells become available. If you keep it without a bonus, it will be nearly useless for might heroes, but also useless for magic heroes because they will already use the better alternatives when their power is higher.
Finally, with equal-leveled spells like lightning bolt and ice bolt, there should probably be a fundamental difference between them. I am opting for that ice bolt has high bonus, but medium power per level, while lightning bolt has high power per level, but a lower bonus.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 25, 2007 04:27 PM |
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I gave Land Mine same damage as Fireball (20 x Power) because they are same level. One might even make it higher because it's going to be very random whether someone walks into the Mine, but it can actually be a decent spell if it's cast 2 or 3 times in a row (of course, I mainly do that for the fun of blasting all the enemy units with the mines ). So yes, if it should actually be usefull, maybe something like 25 x Power or 30 x Power.
About Firewall - it's a delicate balance. Firewall is a tactical spell, not one you use to damage as primary effect. It stands for several rounds, and when applied properly, it can sometimes even damage the same unit two or tree times in a turn (although that's rare, it has happened). Therefore it's a delicate choice between making decent damage but not too high. 20 x Power might be better than 15 x Power, though.
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Jkwo
Hired Hero
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posted January 26, 2007 05:39 AM |
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Edited by Jkwo at 06:04, 26 Jan 2007.
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Quote:
Good suggestions, although I would like to mention a couple of things.
First of all, if land mine and firewall are going to be used, they must have higher damage output than other damage spells of equal level. Why would you create a firewall that the opponent "might" choose to walk through, when you could just drop a fireball/lightning bolt in their heads for the same or higher damage?
Secondly, Inferno should probably have a higher damage output than fireball, since it is one level higher, and in many situations, the added radius will be a curse as much as a boon.
Thirdly, perhaps magic arrow should have bonus damage to make sure even might heroes can deal "some" direct spell damage. After all, magic arrow is only really useful in early map cleaning, not later in the game as better damage spells become available. If you keep it without a bonus, it will be nearly useless for might heroes, but also useless for magic heroes because they will already use the better alternatives when their power is higher.
Finally, with equal-leveled spells like lightning bolt and ice bolt, there should probably be a fundamental difference between them. I am opting for that ice bolt has high bonus, but medium power per level, while lightning bolt has high power per level, but a lower bonus.
I agree with everything you've written.
Alcibiades, I don't think there's any way to justify fire wall having the same or similar damage as fireball, or two other similarly related spells having close damage. Not even the computer is dumb enough to hit a wall multiple times.. I'm pretty sure firewall is only worth it as a spell if you have a prohibitively powerful wall. The same level = same damage line of thinking is simply leaving out way too many factors. That arrangement also renders single-target damage relatively pointless. In your model, Meteor Shower, at 40x for multiple targets, is in most cases just as useful or more useful than Implosion, 80x for one target, even though Implosion is the higher level spell. At the beginning of a battle, which is when stuff like implosion is most popular, there are always going to be two key units within the range of one meteor shower, and often three in the next round or two.
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the majority of Heroes 3 L and XL maps are in fact unplayable without Town Portal.
I'm not sure why you were repeatedly asserting this statement so vehemently, but I have to humbly disagree, especially if you're talking about vs. the AI. Against the computer, if you have some scouts out there, each with a couple upgraded 7s or 6s or some archers, to clean the map, and then two larger armies, one for defending the first few towns, and one for moving into enemy territory and defending captured towns there, in my experience it's pretty hard to lose.
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Yanzhangcan
Known Hero
*Dance*
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posted January 26, 2007 06:12 AM |
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The Quicksilver patch fixed a lot of the unbalanced things in Homm, the weaker imps now have more health! Other small things (Cost etc) are also fixed.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 26, 2007 09:22 AM |
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Quote:
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the majority of Heroes 3 L and XL maps are in fact unplayable without Town Portal.
I'm not sure why you were repeatedly asserting this statement so vehemently, but I have to humbly disagree, especially if you're talking about vs. the AI. Against the computer, if you have some scouts out there, each with a couple upgraded 7s or 6s or some archers, to clean the map, and then two larger armies, one for defending the first few towns, and one for moving into enemy territory and defending captured towns there, in my experience it's pretty hard to lose.
I'm talking about Epic style maps here. I don't know whether you've ever played any of those fan-made maps with a story-line, that you follow through the map - these maps are not regular Gamer vs. AI maps, because the AI normally isn't allowed to move around the map at will, but is limited to a certain area defined by border gards and such that only you can open. This will typically be different "nations" that you visit on your journey.
In these maps, the path from beginning to end will oftenmost be one long journey that doesn't bring you close to "home" - except if you use the Town Portal spell. Obviously, using three or four weaks to run home for re-inforcements is not a viable choice for game-play. Therefore I say, in order to make such maps possible, one needs Town Portal - not because you have to go home to defend your castle, but simply because the map will be based on you going home for re-inforcements every time you've conquered a new "nation".
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