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| Thread: Sylvan Heroes Review |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted February 17, 2007 02:40 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Even in duel, raazak is smashed badly by ossir
And Ossir doesn't even use his high magic resistance in the duel, 'cause Razzak doesn't have any offensive spells
But Deirdre (even though she's not the best hero) sure kicks Ossir's butt.
Hehe have not played it since 1.4, but i remember victorio/deleb and dirael is answer to ossir.
Deleb is almost unbeatable but to 1 man, which is raazak lol
Duel matchups are quite straightforward at times.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 17, 2007 02:42 PM |
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THEY are practical, even though not perfectly balanced. What I'm saying is that you SHOULD consider things practical, from experience, so that it will be more balanced. If we would have followed the theoretical part, well, that leads us to version 1.0, no?
Practical means something that you can put into practice -- you can put that map with 2 towns (1 day distance) in practice very easily with the map editor. So yeah, in practice, you can play maps with 100000 gold mines in your region, no creeps 
Can't find a dictionary right now, but you can see what "practice" or "practical" means there
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 17, 2007 02:45 PM |
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Yes, but let Nival made maps be considered 'normal' ok?
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted February 17, 2007 02:46 PM |
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Not really. If you have tried him you know that he boosts their survivability a lot and his starting army is pretty good. Given some time his wardancers get dangerous with their combo and the battle commander ability boosts his strength right out of the blue.(leadership is easy to get) He actually makes his dancers durable when you charge them to block enemy ranged fire and they can keep doing it even better with these stats and a favourable morale. Such a great initiative... His starting defense is a bonus since he can easily get evasion or vitality to help sylvan's frail units which die no matter how much defense you have. I just don't like protection that much which is why I think him average.
They are really weak creatures, the survival % too low...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 17, 2007 03:14 PM |
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Ylthin is great, and her speciality is awesome too. I mean, don't you realize the +1 ATT/DEF per 2 levels thingy is stronger for higher tier units, because they 'cheat' in growth? (I mean, ALL the Unicorns (3) are better than ALL the Druids (4), or, not to mention, ALL the Sprites (10)) The Unicorns' damage is higher so the attack (+x%) will have a higher effect. Don't you see there is no high level unit specialist with this kind of speciality (Klaus, Eruina)? You do imagine what will happen if there was a Dragon specialist with +1 ATT/DEF per 2 levels, don't you?
Ylthin has the highest tier specialist (5)
Man you get it all wrong The specialists are always better for lower level creatures.. LVL 15 Ylthin gets an attack bonus of 1/3 Unicorn's att/def and LVL15, say, dougal triples marksmen' att/def.. The low-level specialists boost low-tier creatures into considerable fighters, the high-lvl specialists don't give that much.. a dragon specialist would be a COMPLETE waste, since he would give like 1/4 att/def increase to the dragons.. Which, paired with hard time to get the dragons, would be completely pointless.
Of course, it's best to specialize in creatures that have low att/def but a lot of damage and HP.. that makes the specialization best. Growth is important too. Specializing in war dancers sucks: low growth, high att/def, poor damage and hp.
quote from my chart:
Sprite: 29, -21%
Sprite, Vitality, B.frenzy, Necklace of b.claw: 57, 9%
Wardancers: 55, 38%
Wardancers, LVL15 Gilraen: 79, 56%
Master Hunters: 146, 34%
Master Hunters, LVL15 Ossir: 210, 54%
Druid Elders: 101, 60%
Silver Unicorns: 122, 84%
Silver Unicorns, LVL15 Ylthin: 158, 88%
Ancient Treants: 87, 93%
Ancient Treants, Horde Building: 109, 95%
Emerald Dragons: 185, 86%
so: Elvin: what's so good about wardancer specialist if you need lvl 15 to get them do cerberi's damage while remaining still very fragile? I don't see a point.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 17, 2007 03:23 PM |
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Man, YOU get it all wrong!
+5 attack doesn't mean +5 damage.
Dougal may double the Marksmen attack, but that doesn't double their damage! +20 attack means double damage, for ANY creature
Let's take this practical: we have two creatures, one with attack 1 and another with attack 20, both with 10-10 damage. Let's say we boost their attack by 20, right?
The first creature will have 21 attack and will deal 20.5 damage to a 0 defense creature. Without the boost it deals 10.5 damage.
The second creature will have 40 attack and will deal 30 damage to a 0 defense creature. Without the boost it deals 20 damage.
20.5 - 10.5 = 10
30 - 20 = 10
The result? It's the SAME effect, even though they have other attack values.
Ok, the point is not high tier creatures, but high damage creatures, as the % will be % of something bigger.
EDIT: ok, after some calculations, I'm amazed by the Marksman's damage!
12 marksmen deal 60 average damage, but they have 8 initiative.
3 unicorns deal 45 average damage, but they have 12 initiative.
1 black dragon deals 57.5 average damage, with initiative 10! A black dragon specialist would kick ass!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 17, 2007 03:26 PM |
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it's not only att, it's defense too.
I'd say specialists are mainly for defense.
level 2-3 creature's survivability can be boosted by 20-30% with +8 DEF.
lvl 5-6 creature's survivability increases by 5-8% with +8 DEF.
Who's wrong now? ;p
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 17, 2007 03:31 PM |
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Ok, I was referring to the attack boost.
Still not sure why the defense boost is better for low level creatures
They give a percentage to absorb the enemy's attack. So, higher HP means higher the defense boost.
12 Marksmen have 120 HP.
1 Blackie has 240 HP. I think the defense boost would be doubled here. Or am I wrong? (because he dies twice harder)
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 17, 2007 03:38 PM |
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It's because of the formula.
If attack is bigger than def, the damage is bigger aswell.
Adding DEF to low-level creature makes the "better" formula(survivability-wise) trigger more often.
Regarding specialists: I'll do a new chart.. we shall see which specialist is the most useful  (chart-maniac style on  )
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 17, 2007 03:42 PM |
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Quote:
Regarding specialists: I'll do a new chart.. we shall see which specialist is the most useful (chart-maniac style on )
What do you mean by a new chart? Didn't the previous one had all specialists?
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 17, 2007 03:44 PM |
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Defense just makes the enemy deal less damage. I don't get it why it's stronger for low level creatures. I think it's stronger for stacks with higher HP.
And you all know the higher tier creatures 'cheat' in terms of power (in fact, the lower tier creatures have too little growth for their power) so 12 marksmen have less HP than an ArchAngel. The result, the higher tier creatures benefit more from a defense boost! (ofc, there is Training, but that is an exception. I mean, hey, not all the factions have training!)
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 17, 2007 03:45 PM |
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Yeah, but it's too confusing to count all of the bonuses there.
The discussion here is about sylvan heroes.. and I'd like to discuss the specialists and their impact on the game ;p
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 17, 2007 03:48 PM |
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Of course it depends on the creatures.
For example: for the Sprite, the Defense boost (if there was) is almost unnoticeable, but the Attack boost is great (especially because they can hit multiple targets)
Same with the Cerberi, the Attack boost is an exception there, because if you hit 3 targets, the bonus will be three times bigger
Oh yeah, same with Hunter's double strike So Ossir is a great hero IMHO.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 17, 2007 03:53 PM |
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Elvin > Really nice comments!  It's obvious that you talk from a lot of gaming experience, not only statistics and number evaluation, and that makes the difference between a theoretical review and a usefull review.
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 17, 2007 04:13 PM |
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Not that much but I have played at least once with the heroes I mentioned. I don't trust compilations of numbers so I will occasionally try out heroes with my eye fixed on how they perform in certain cases and hopefully notice ways to improve their play.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted February 17, 2007 05:42 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 10:10, 18 Feb 2007.
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Oppppsss guys, you are right Talanar is average hero, in the first post it is just a technical mistake (now it is fixed). Just the text was created first as .doc file, and then it was copied here, the ranks were added later
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hydroman
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 18, 2007 10:25 AM |
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Edited by hydroman at 10:26, 18 Feb 2007.
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I think it's pretty obvious that as the Sylvans, hunters are your backbone, and hence Ossir is probably the best hero. The +att bonus, and any buffs you put on those guys, get compounded with the double attack of the hunters to do some sick, sick damage.
From my experience (both as and against sylvan), it's common that they conserve their hunters as best possible, show up at your door with a nice stack of them, and defend the hunters while they make mince meat out of you. Magical immunity/mad buffs, and tons of bodies filling up the squares around the hunters while they do a lot of the dirty work, is not uncommon. If your game revolves around the hunters, get Ossir to make sure they're good
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 18, 2007 10:36 AM |
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There are zilions of ways to kill hunters, and relying on them was never the best idea. Say, Irina's battlediving imperials can kill all of them in one hit.. Even with ossir.
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted February 18, 2007 02:43 PM |
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Quote:
There are zilions of ways to kill hunters, and relying on them was never the best idea. Say, Irina's battlediving imperials can kill all of them in one hit.. Even with ossir.
Very easily solutions to that problem... Split the stacks of hunters and/or use teleport IF you have it. The 1st one always works, 2nd you can't always guarentee because it is tough to get.
I think if one goes with master hunters, they should also have treants as the backbone. This combo is so deadly it isn't even funny. Split the treants and split the hunters. Opposing army=dead.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 18, 2007 03:01 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 15:02, 18 Feb 2007.
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I have done that and defeated a better army but it was an act of desperation as I was caught off guard. You can't depend on that as you just lose your hunters and may lose the battle eventually. And an eldritch arrow per round(or two with academy) will kill them fast enough for sure.
In the beginning two hunter and two druid stacks with unicorns and treants are good enough. If enough sprites/wardancers have survived so for the better.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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