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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted May 14, 2001 01:38 PM |
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Ichon
I've heard of patriotism, but you're just a hoe!
When Judgement Day comes, don't tell me I didn't say "I told you so"
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 14, 2001 09:19 PM |
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the end of an age
Well, the US is going to find it harder and harder to push other countries around as time passes. Our interests are slowly diverging from our closest allies in Europe, yet the best potential allies in Asia are not be courted properly because of the fear of a future aggressive China.
Patriotism? Should I be a patriot just because I was born in the US? It's the richest country in the world, but it also has the most arrogant people with possible exception of France or Japan. Well, Chinese will be as arrogant soon I think, the signs are already there.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 15, 2001 07:29 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 15 May 2001 01:31
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Zedrin
I was hoping to challenge and inspire…but if I can give you a good laugh…well that’s good to
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 15, 2001 07:33 AM |
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Mocara
Your response to Zedrin was witty and funny but I disagree with your premise about closing the thread (and apparently deth8’s and Zedrin’s opinion also…lol). Ok I guess I am basically alone in this opinion...oh well got to state what I think
I guess I might be a strange fellow but I find his unabashed pursuit of individualism and “no boundaries” intriguing to say the least. He seems to have been both intellectually honest and respectful of others. His reasoning seems sound but his conclusions appear to only lead to emptiness and despair. I find it somewhat exhilarating to chat with someone with such unusual views and goals (though apparently I only give him a good laugh…hehe)
Besides…I love the way this thread is going…good exchange of thoughts on very important life issues (honor, God’s existence, morality, hate/anger, etc.)
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted May 15, 2001 07:41 AM |
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Zedrin
I would have liked to have known what happened to you to make you so bitter and so lame. Is it the root of your hatred as a child?
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 15, 2001 07:49 AM |
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Pandora
I personally think that it is our obligation to question our childhood culture and values. At least that is what I went through and found it valuable. In the end of my questioning (is there a God? Why should I love my neighbor?, etc.) I ended up coming almost full circle and embraced many of the values that I was reared with. Not only was the questioning process fulfilling but it also then made my values MY values and not the ones I was indoctrinated with. This gave a meaning to my beliefs and values that I don’t think I would have had before.
History I think also attests to the need to question our values. For example, in the USA what if the abolitionists didn’t question their cultural values of slavery...then we most likely would of continued the deplorable practice. So I think we need to question our values and those of others in an attempt to find truth.
I don’t believe that we should question just to question…that is nothing but stupidity mixed with arrogance. Instead I believe we should question our values in an attempt to find and then honor the “true” values.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 15, 2001 08:00 AM |
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Wow lots going on in this thread...thus my multiple posts
Zedrin
It sounds as if you have an intellectual comprehension of what your cruel actions might of resulted in...but it seems to lack the attached feelings. In my thinking, if you truly understood what you did in an empathetic manner then you naturally would of regretted them because your actions in that example were…well no other word can describe it but evil (I am not saying you are evil but your actions---yeah, yeah I know you are beyond good and evil...haha). I think the crux can be summed up in your statement "My existence would become dull (my point of view) and tired” If you only really care about your existence...well that is the heart of lacking empathy.
While it is interesting that your goal is to only have self imposed barriers...in my belief that is a fruitless and empty pursuit. The only true reasons for life in my world few are to attempt to find the “true” moral and religious barriers.
I question the sociological and scientific underpinnings of your belief that “above all individuals, then human beings part of a society”. In my understanding one of the most basic human needs is to be in relationship with others. I think the individualist lacks a basic understanding of our natural interdependency. Neither dependency or individualism fulfill what I believe to be our purpose, but rather a fragile combination of both.
PS I enjoyed your poem
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 15, 2001 09:22 AM |
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Socrates?
dArGOn:
Truly what you expressed about the value of questioning was so important. You said it well also I think. People do need examples also and using the abolitionists was good, even when things are obvious, if you don't consider them- how can you base everything else you think upon an untested ediface?
You aren't unique in coming full circle either- the only point I have to disagree with you on is the emptiness of questioning for it's own sake. There is no conclusion without anotehr question, and so it is pointless to ask the first time if you don't continue. Anything you accept as a "sure thing" or the literal truth is something you are taking on faith. For some people that is enough proof. For others, there will never be enough proof- and the whole extent in between those extremes.
As for codependence, I lean more toward Zedrin, but it's false to believe you can ever be totally independent, merely existing means you are not fully an individual in all means, not even your thoughts since they follow structures predetermined by a combination of physical nature, and cultural and linguistic programming. Rejecting dependence upon all others is healthy, yet having no interaction is worse than the life of a hermit which Zedrin obviously isn't being here.
Making a choice to value something beyond yourself as an extension or part of yourself- that is the only time you can be truly independent, no one can force that upon you, it's totally your own choice. Perhaps you can be steered in a direction, but the final sum is of your own making. Empathy is only broad knowledge considered from a different perspective, afterall- you can see someone is feeling something, but unless you beleive in telepathy you are only projecting what you think that person is feeling, not comprehending what that person is really feeling.
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 15, 2001 10:49 AM |
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Quote:
It sounds as if you have an intellectual comprehension of what your cruel actions might of resulted in...but it seems to lack the attached feelings. In my thinking, if you truly understood what you did in an empathetic manner then you naturally would of regretted them because your actions in that example were…well no other word can describe it but evil (I am not saying you are evil but your actions---yeah, yeah I know you are beyond good and evil...haha). I think the crux can be summed up in your statement "My existence would become dull (my point of view) and tired” If you only really care about your existence...well that is the heart of lacking empathy.
While it is interesting that your goal is to only have self imposed barriers...in my belief that is a fruitless and empty pursuit. The only true reasons for life in my world few are to attempt to find the “true” moral and religious barriers.
I question the sociological and scientific underpinnings of your belief that “above all individuals, then human beings part of a society”. In my understanding one of the most basic human needs is to be in relationship with others. I think the individualist lacks a basic understanding of our natural interdependency. Neither dependency or individualism fulfill what I believe to be our purpose, but rather a fragile combination of both.
PS I enjoyed your poem
Aren't all ideals empty pursuits? We can never reach one, and if we do then it was a false ideal, a goal.
I know that i cannot have only self imposed barriers, but i can try. I am a strong advocate of individualism, but i realize that in this reality we cannot survive without interacting with other people.
Dargon, i am amused by your comments because i like challenges. I prefer having a civilized talk or debate without the unecessary "disruptive words".
About self questioning. I find it constructive most of the time... Answers are elusive and truths tend to change. The questions usually remain the same, with minor details changing.
What made me be like this? Why do people always asume that only trauma can cause serious change?
Hell, i don't mind if this thread stays open. Gives me an ocupation between turns
____________
"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted May 15, 2001 07:17 PM |
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hmmm
I suppose i made a mess of trying to say what i was thinking, 'cuz what you're saying Dargon is in agreement with what i meant.
Somehow i feel that if i try to say anything more i'll get it wrong again, so i think i'm gonna just give up, lol
My thought basically , is that to close the subject of what is honour means that we close our minds to other ideas that may not be on the list of rules we came up with.
Obviously i didn't mean we should accept Deth's murderous cult as being okay 'cuz its just a different way of thinking, but exploring other ideas and challenging ourselves is an important part of our growth as human beings.
I never disagreed with your ideas tho, i just think its important not to discount something because its not on our immediate list of what is honourable. Maybe its cuz im Canadian, i like the ideas of the Canadian Mosiac - embrace our differences and learn to understand one another
Anyways Dargon, i read Deth's post to you and Mocara, and it made me realized i really miss your manly voice crooning love songs, so how 'bout you sing us a little song?
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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ironmlh
Known Hero
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posted May 15, 2001 08:52 PM |
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Delete this Thread plz
Well this thread really has nothing to do with the Tournament of honor, so why not delete it. Seems like maybe it should be on a Politcal Forum Board, not a Heroes 3 board.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted May 15, 2001 10:44 PM |
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I think it should stay
It may have very little to do with TOH but every player should read it, specially the new people coming to TOH it will give them something to mull over thats not directly game related but will help them alot 
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted May 16, 2001 12:50 AM |
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I dont see the problem with it being here, if anyone doesn't want to read it, they can just not read it...
Seems simple enough
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2001 06:50 AM |
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Pandora,
I have no idea what you are talking about...I never sing songs to people So please stop spreading such vicious lies and delete whatever imaginary song you may have of me from your hard drive
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2001 06:56 AM |
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Ironmlh…please follow Pandora’s simple steps in the post above
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2001 07:21 AM |
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Ichon
You make a good point that we need to ask questions as we don’t know what may evolve from our questioning.
I might have been vague in what I was putting forth. I have met plenty of people who only ask questions (of others not themselves) to both show their supposed intellectual prowess and arrogance. They have no motivation to seek answers but only to shoot down other’s who are trying to pursue truth. These people suck in my opinion
I believe it is great to ask questions if they are aimed towards a purpose other then displaying ones self-centered agenda of power and dominance.
In my profession and experience empathy is not telepathy (though some people intentionally or unintentionally do abuse it in this way) but it also is not a mere intellectual exercise. Instead I have witnessed it both increase our humanity and provide awesome healing.
Empathy (to walk in another’s shoes) is somewhat natural but has to be groomed and developed to make us grow, become prosocial and care for others.
Zedrin,
Are you a nihilist (don’t mean to categorize you…but just curious)? You seem to be there or almost there. Interesting cause don’t meet many people with your apparent tempered pessimism/contempt for questioning, knowledge and truth.
You appear to be a learned person…but ideals are never an empty pursuit. Ideals are not by definition out of reach.
Also just because we can reach them it does not follow that the pursuit was not a worthy experience. In fact I would argue that life is one big attempt towards something we can never fully achieve (truth, kindness, happiness, etc). I find value in the struggle, the search, and the discipline.
Also maybe I misunderstood your use of “amuse”. I usually know it in the context of being amused at a child’s antics and behaviors.
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 17, 2001 07:49 AM |
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Quote:
Zedrin,
Are you a nihilist (don’t mean to categorize you…but just curious)? You seem to be there or almost there. Interesting cause don’t meet many people with your apparent tempered pessimism/contempt for questioning, knowledge and truth.
Hell no. I don't like belonging to a group. I don't embrace a philosophy. My atitude and beliefs do not come from belonging to a group, they have developed in time.
You appear to be a learned person…but ideals are never an empty pursuit. Ideals are not by definition out of reach.
Also just because we can reach them it does not follow that the pursuit was not a worthy experience. In fact I would argue that life is one big attempt towards something we can never fully achieve (truth, kindness, happiness, etc). I find value in the struggle, the search, and the discipline.
Also maybe I misunderstood your use of “amuse”. I usually know it in the context of being amused at a child’s antics and behaviors.
Ideals are suposed to be the perfection of one thing or another. We, being imperfect beings, cannot reach them just get closer. What i meant by empty pursuits is that the goal is not achievable. The pursuit of an ideal may be a very valuable experience, but also dangerous, because sooner or later some will realize that they have no chance of reaching their ideal. That may result in utter depression.
May...just may.
____________
"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2001 08:38 AM |
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Empathy
Ichon
You make a good point that we need to ask questions as we don’t know what may evolve from our questioning.
"I might have been vague in what I was putting forth. I have met plenty of people who only ask questions (of others not themselves) to both show their supposed intellectual prowess and arrogance. They have no motivation to seek answers but only to shoot down other’s who are trying to pursue truth. These people suck in my opinion"
If that is their only aim, but those people are frequently to shallow to remain in the debate. Criticism only bothers the arrogant or insecure, hopefully the point of asking something is to become less of either- so as long as you are still bothered, then you know you need to ask a new question.
"In my profession and experience empathy is not telepathy (though some people intentionally or unintentionally do abuse it in this way) but it also is not a mere intellectual exercise. Instead I have witnessed it both increase our humanity and provide awesome healing.
Empathy (to walk in another’s shoes) is somewhat natural but has to be groomed and developed to make us grow, become prosocial and care for others."
What you are describing is not empathy- rather it is someone feeling sorry for themselves by imagining themselves in a worser position. It is normally the occupation of do-gooders who really have no comphrension, but the desperate rarely turn away interest, even if they know in their hearts it is not interest in them, merely a facade.
Sympathy is about the most you can accomplish here in this life- I will admit there are occasions of true empathy, but it's hard for any onlooker except those involved to distinguish those occurences from the false empathy and fake humility that go on the rest of the time.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2001 08:41 AM |
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Utter depression?
Zedrin:
If someone were to realize all pursuits are empty and no ideal can ever be achieved, why should they be depressed? Is it not more depressing to think you could someday reach a point from which there is no where else to go? That is true hopelessness.
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 17, 2001 09:08 AM |
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I've met people so depressed by the simple fact that they lacked the resources to achieve perfection. I've seen people fall apart simply because they were bested by others at something they thought not possible.
Having nowhere to go is rarely possible. You can always go back, retrace your steps.
Having nowhere to go can also result in complacency. You might just like it where you are, with no desire to evole or devolve.
____________
"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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This thread is pages long: 
