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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 20, 2001 08:06 PM |
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What i meant about not judging was really only valid in my case. I strive to be objective though i know i cannot. It is impossible for mortals to be objective, since we are influenced by our conscious or subconscious experiences, by our backgrounds and feelings. We can only try to asses objectively situations that do not affect us directly, though that may and will make most of us seem either cold or distant... or both.
Thus a father beating his child would not matter to me unless i was involved. Then i'd view the situation from a certain point of view, with certain feelings and opinions. Can they be judged? You can judge my physical actions, not my emotional choices.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 20, 2001 08:13 PM |
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Quote:
Coming back to the thread though I suppose the word "Honour" is used to make sure that the people playing in TOH are polite, don't cheat and don't fail to report games. I think it's a well-chosen word and I behave a bit better in TOH than I would in, for example, DiabloII online
Wow thats made me wonder how you behave in diablo2. Bit of a pk are we?
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 20, 2001 08:34 PM |
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Lol, with my connection i can't play Diablo2 on the net. Plus i don't like it, too linear.
But i probably would be, given the oportunity.
Hehe
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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dargon
Famous Hero
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posted April 21, 2001 06:47 AM |
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Columbus,
I too worked in social services in California. I don’t know you must have nicer parents in England…hehe…in about 90% of the cases the parents here that were in the social service system were atrocious and used their kids to vent their anger or they would choose their drugs over their children or their children were nice objects to have sex with…so in those cases it was pretty clear to me that there was an objective right and wrong.
I do agree with you that what to do with the situation after it is discovered is pretty convoluted as the social service system usually isn’t a good place to rear children. I guess the point I would make is that most people would/could objectively state that children should never be exposed to the previous situations…cause it is wrong.
Well I understand this conversation has gotten away from the original subject of Honor but the reason I keep posting is more in relation to my interest in our discussion of moral relativism (which seems like a philosophy to excuse the inexcusable). I think in the end honor is an objective ideal that can be aspired to but never totally obtained. Lots of good definitions of what honor is have already been posted so I won’t belabor the point
Enjoying the discussion
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 21, 2001 06:52 PM |
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This thread has sidetracked a long time ago.
One question though: how can you truly objectively judge something when you are affected by it? if you "feel" a certain way about something, then you already lost the the oportunity to judge objectively. I don't say that judging subjectively is wrong. It is the way it's done usually. We rarely judge things that do not affect us.
But about responsability, can that exist if there is a "God"? For a "God" is suposed to be omnipotent, limitless, so we simply have no control. We are just puppets. If there is no "God", then 90% or more of the world's population live in blissful ignorance and illusion. Though to say which one though.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 21, 2001 10:15 PM |
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I think bird walking is great. Sidetrack schmidetrack, Honor can go alot further than a discussion on it's definition and the natural flow of this conversation has been good in my opinion and though what seems deviation from the conversation still seems highly related to me and definately ties in to Honor.
-dEth8
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 21, 2001 10:18 PM |
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smiling people
Look at all the smiling faces on this page of this thread so far (columbus exception of course). Even if we are ugly we are still happy eh?
....what a bunch of happy campers we are I enjoy your company anyhow folks.
-dEth8@happynessanddeeperthought.com
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 21, 2001 10:22 PM |
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ignorance
Oops..one more...sorry about the string.
I think there is still alot of ignorance even if God exists Zedrin. But, I see your point there too and that about the objective viewing too.
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Columbus
Hired Hero
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posted April 22, 2001 03:37 AM |
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just for you, Deth
I am enjoying the discussion too
I take your point Dargon. No, we don't have nicer people here, of course not. However, all too often the parents are survivors of abuse themselves. And while I didn't think it through well enough before: a child abuser is a monster; still it's hard to find black and white solutions
Thank goodness for games!
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 23, 2001 11:38 AM |
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eek!
Hey, you guys really know how to get into all the sick stuff really quick don't you? What turned out to be a discussion on honour now has pepperings of child molestation and abuse! I don't even know how you tripped out people even THOUGHT of using abuse as a contrast to honour, the two are SO far apart that it's twisted! You all know that molestation is way off the scale of 'dishonourable' and I don't want to hear the argument that abusive parents justify their sickness so that it seems somehow 'right'. THere IS NO RIGHT! It's all evil in its worst form and I don't think any of you have a CLUE!
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 23, 2001 03:06 PM |
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Hehe...
That was just an example. An extreme one but just an example. The point was that you can justify anything to yourself, so what makes that justification different than the judgement you get from the world? If you feel what you do is right, what makes it wrong?
Right and wrong, good and evil are personal value systems, so the way you judge a deed will not concur with the way the next one will.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 23, 2001 03:16 PM |
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Right and wrong
The difference between self-justification and judgement is that self-justification can't really be quantified or measured. Anyone can crap themselves into believing a crime was moral.
Judgement though comes from the masses of people and they have the right to judge your actions provided you allow them. The majority of what the masses (whether it be 3 people or 3 billion) is ultimately what decides the truth of the matter. I think some people call it democracy, the ability to judge and say whether or not something is good or bad.
You see, that's precisely why 'honour' should not be rated as a personal value, as a saint can believe himself to be honourable, yet so can a serial rapist. If things were that way, the Honour Council would be useless, the court system would be useless and the whole world would be ruled by anarchy.
Honour comes from without, not from within.
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Mystery
Famous Hero
Hatebreeder
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posted April 23, 2001 06:12 PM |
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Honor
This discussion is not going anywhere since no one can tell what honor actually is, but its much easier to define what dishonour is, right? So I think that would lead to knowing what is honor.
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D3@th t0 Fals3 m3Tal!
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted April 24, 2001 07:25 AM |
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Hehe
What makes what the "masses" think right? Just because there are more of them? Wouldn't that lead to moral segregation? There is such a concept as minorities... Even a single person qualifies as a minority.
(Hell, i couldn't care less, but it is a principle of democracy that minorities be taken into account when making decisions)
Hehe.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 24, 2001 09:23 AM |
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Some people here have made some interesting points on society and philosophy here, but most seem to be deviating from the topic.
The very word "honor" is related to the opinion of the masses and their esteem of what they think of you. That is just its meaning...to be honorable is to be respected and valued by your moral actions. It has little to do with moral justification.
Perhaps another thread on ethics or theology should be started?
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 24, 2001 12:22 PM |
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I have the answer
Honor is personal.
Different for everyone.
It is a value and values are different for everyone.
That is why this thread will never lead us to the answer.
What I call honor is different than what you call it. The same as what I call cold may not be cold to someone else if they were from a different climate.
As for the people who said morals and ethics were not relative I contend that they are.
Relative to the environment and what they are exposed to.
Religion is just a group of morals and ethics that a person adopts as their own.
This is not a knock on religion at all. Just a reminder that morals for those of us fortunate to have guidance and good econonics working for us may easily forget that some who do not have these advantages may have different morals.
Put in the right situation all our easy to live by morals will go out the door for survival's sake.
I cannot judge anyone until I have walked in their shoes so for someone to say morals and ethics are absolute is scary.
Adolf Hitler had this same view.
I am sure that guy thought what he was doing was honorable as well.
Honor is different for everyone.
-Mocara
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 25, 2001 02:34 AM |
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No it isn't
Honour, I think, is in the same terms as good and evil and right and wrong. You all have different perceptions of these ideals, but ultimately 1 perception doesn't clarify the meaning of the term. Honour should be a term that many people can come to an agreement on it's meaning.
Honour is all about how you relate to the external, not about how you relate to your own ideals. If there was only one person on the face of this planet then honour would be completely and utterly meaningless. If there were two people, then all of a sudden, honour takes on meaning...
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 25, 2001 07:49 AM |
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Thank you Shae...
I must say I'm impressed. Every post I have seen of yours seems to hit the mark very neatly. Keep it up.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 25, 2001 11:15 AM |
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Shae the word you are searching for is government.
Or maybe it's religion.
You know...everyone agreeing on the same morality.
Absence of personal choice.
No thanks.
-Mocara
"I will choose the path I feel. I will choose free will." - Rush
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted April 25, 2001 11:21 AM |
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wow again
I must admit mocara is extremely inteligent for a heroes gamer  Most peeps miss the point but mocara got it on the nose My hat off to u .. if i even wore a hat
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I guess with my way thinking I would be going to hell. Good thing I dont believe in it.
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This thread is pages long: 
