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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted May 01, 2001 10:46 AM |
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God or Honour?
Now this is getting really good! But it's also becoming very confusing, because someone mentioned the word 'god' somewhere and intertwined the concept of honour with the idea of god...
Jiels and Pluvious seem to be on the same wavelength as I am about the whole honour thing, especially the part about self-sacrifice. Isn't that the ultimate definition of honour? The act of being selfless, not seeking reward for an action done to the benefit of someone else?
Now this doesn't mean that we should all start losing games to make people feel happy, lol, if we did, then that too would be dishonourable, because we would not be true to ourselves in admitting that we enjoy winning.
Now where did my application for the Jiels and Pluvious fan club disappear to....?
As for GOD, well, I'm not an atheist, but rather a skeptic. And Dargon, no offense to your beliefs, but to state that free will doesn't exist because everything follows the pattern of evolution is simply untrue. That because a person doesn't believe in god doesn't allow them to right to be 'honourable' (quote: "behaviour in accord with... societal norms")
You yourself have said that "if God wants me to act in a certain way, then I am acting honourably when I do so". It seems to me that you are the person with no free will, you do as god says. If god told you to be rude and disgusting to other people, would you do it?
One of the reasons I find religion to be so unwelcoming is because it is precisely full of these sorts of hypocritical arguments that I see time and time again.
And another thing. The Bible is NOT devine revelation, (you have enough free will to defend that statement of mine, lol) it is a historical text written about a man named Jesus and written 4 centuries after his death, no less. It was not written by god, it offers no proof of god so therefore it is not a revelation FROM God. Although I do not like this book, perhaps you would like to read Jesus the Magician, by Professor Morton-Smith. It has a few very good points about the bible that any person with 'free-will' would like to read.
I think honour and free will are rather opposites, because one ascribes to a selfless moral code and the other ascribes to a selfish moral code. And let us not complicate things further with who makes better burgers. Mickey or King?
*smile*
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted May 01, 2001 11:08 AM |
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The_Castrated
Please someone castrate his keyboard as well =)
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted May 01, 2001 04:16 PM |
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Finer points
A finer point is just look: when a baby is borned, just visualise. All the atoms in his head/brain are arranged in this particular way. it perceives and respond, changing it and for the whole lifetime, will act according to 2 main things1(its original arrangement ) and 2(worldly life experiences which shapes it. theres no place for another thing. Even if there were, a god do exist or satan exist and is capable of manupilating it, y would then any1 b held accountable and get sent to hell, a place by god for eternal damnation. Just look, "Everyone comes with nothing, goes with nothing'. Isnt it clear that what we do, everydecisions we make is predetermined by these 2 things, especially life encounters?
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 02, 2001 05:46 AM |
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God stuff and Honor
Seems to me God's omnipresent power might be what actually holds the atoms in place. We see part of this through possibly quantum mechanics. Something in the Bible to the effect that God is all and through all would seem to give credence to this as well?
So is that baby possibly predetermined?
Shae, God comes into the picture when absolutes are appealed to. Sicne to define something like honor has no basis at all rather than popular opinion without an external standard. We must move outside our own realm of existence to arrive at some standard that is not simply an opinion of influential people. Thus, the debating of issues regarding God and existence ensue no? Seems inevitable to me.
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 02, 2001 07:15 AM |
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i'm enjoying this:)
The castrated - You said it yourself, atoms arrange in a pattern, they form solid matter... They order the world. Each atom has its own structure, so everything we know is just pure Order... What if what we call God is pure Chaos, a state of existence so allien, so different that we cannot accept it?
What power does a God hold? If it is a just an imaginary being, created to give mortals a sense of security in front of the inevitable end, has it no power?
Such a God has only as much power as we give him... but no single indvidual can challenge that power in the long run...
Hope this makes some sense.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted May 02, 2001 09:02 AM |
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3 wise men came
Albert Einstein believed in God.
He said "God doesn't play dice." meaning there is order in the universe. A divine plan maybe.
Carl Sagan said "Noone can disprove the existence of God."
Even Stephen Hawking believes in God (read "A Brief History of Time")
Now I know I'm intelligent. Always knew it since I was in school and stood out and got all these special test and crap.
Got put in special schools so I could accelerate my learning.
So f*ckin what?
All of us here are intelligent but only a fool would claim to be more intelligent than those 3 men.
I absolutely despise religion personally but have no problems with people who are religious.
I cannot propose to disprove their beliefs about Jesus or Buddha, etc.
So I don't choose to follow it but maybe one day I will. Maybe it will be revealed to me that someone or everyone is right about their religions.
I can certainly understand why people would cling to something like that. It's very powerful.
My point is, why has has this honor thread turned to talking about some omnipotent being?
And how does one propose to disprove it's existence as the castrated attempts to?
Personally I never doubt the existance of "god" but I cannot define it.
It is something larger than me that I feel connected to.
I remember being a teenager and falling asleep and praying "I need money bad and I am too young to get a real job. Please help me see the way." and waking up to the sound of a new lawnmower my grandfather had bought that day.
You just have to know my Grandfather. He never left the house. Let alone spend money. He had no idea that I needed a lawnmower.
I always know what is coming just by paying attention. There are always signs.
Castrated, read "The Celestine Prophecy". It talks about coincidences and how to listen to messages that are being sent to you.
They are sent to us through other people and often we are the messengers as well.
Recently I needed to track down an old friend very badly. She had moved and I hadn't seen her for years.
I tuned myself in to finding her (what people call prayer but to me it's just directing my mind) and forgot about it.
A few days later I was looking through used books and to my delight found "The Tolkien Reader". Brought it home and sat it on my desk.
I thought again about how I need to track Vanessa down. I looked at the book and opened it. It said "If lost return to Vanessa" and had her number in it.
This type of thing happens everyday but you have to learn to see it and be open to it.
The cynic or "intellectual" thinks it makes them look wiser to try to disprove there is something more than us but the saying "There are no atheist in foxholes" holds true for everyone.
We all need something to believe in and noone can prove a negative.
-Mocara
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted May 02, 2001 10:53 AM |
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Woohoo!
Hello Mocara!
That was VERY impressive, I liked what you said. It was one of the few things that I have read that make much sense. I have read the Celestine Prophecy and found that I was too young to understand the true depths of its meaning, but one day I will read that book again, perhaps when I'm in my sixties and as wise as you are.
There was one day when I was with a friend who was visiting a passed relative in a cemetary. Out of respect for my friend, I waited in the car for her to pray and burn incense and grieve to herself. The cemetary was an awesome place, tended down to the last weed, its perfection was literally amazing. I sat in my car, looking out over an expanse of green grass and at the edge of this 'field' were six or seven gigantic pine trees, planted all in a row to form a sort of wall.
I looked at these trees hard, for ages, I was mesmerized by them and all of a sudden, I was so painfully aware of the surrounds of my car interior, that I felt the need to climb out. I did so and stared at the trees some more, so transfixed by them, I could not take my eyes off them even if somebody slapped me in the face.
Still, I felt the need to be further away from my horrible car and closer to the trees. I decided to take off my shoes and socks and I stepped onto the grass.
It was so amazing, the feel of wet green 'carpet' beneath my toes and the feel of the cool summer breeze in my hair as I watched these age-old pines. The feeling was so intense that I cried. I cried tears of sadness and tears of joy and during this time, I dare say that I felt a 'connection' with the pines. LOL, call me stupid.
Anyway I have never been so appreciative of a tree in my whole entire life. Never.
I will always remember that time, perhaps I will understand the significance of it some day, just like one day I shall understand the Celestine Prophecy. It stings me to think that I am too young to fully appreciate certain things now and one day I will become a nostalgic hag who missed the importance of God.
Is there a difference between being spiritual and being religious?
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 02, 2001 01:43 PM |
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Hmm.....................
you cant even say grass thats funny
So has the honour topic went out the window now? To be replaced by god and spiritual? Well thats ok.
I seem to be having problems with the click to review this thread button and after its posted. I get this message "The requested URL was not found on this server." Not much to do with with anything on this page but i dont give a rats ass. 
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 02, 2001 08:50 PM |
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When I'm hungry and I see a big juicy steak I want to eat it. Or even a hamburger or salad would be good...
When its cold I shiver and try to find heat...
I seek out human contact for comfort and assurance...
When something bad happens I get sad or upset...
These are all human conditions or phenomenons. And this is all straight from my head...just basic stuff, nothing flashy.
No one thinks them unusual or "spiritual". They are common happenings for all people.
It is true that we do not know everything as a race or people or whatever, and we don't know if there is a god or what form or purpose it may have. But that does not necessarily mean that impulses we have or the linkings or dream associations or instincts out mind comes up with are not explanable without the assistance of the spiritual.
Then again there are many forces at work we do not understand. Even Einstein didn't know everything, but yet believed in a unity of the universe theory.
While intelligence (in my opinion) is very beneficial in the world we live in...and many seem to undervalue its importance. Maybe because some don't want to try and understand and only live from day to day...???
As a personal preference I enjoy the company of those who pursue truth and knowledge...it is both stimulating and comforting.
p.s. all the above is way too short for its subject matter...
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 03, 2001 02:56 AM |
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origins?
I am sure Einstein had more in mind then relativity when he spoke of God.
Some thoughts I have that lead me to the existence of God.
Three basic possibilities that all origins seem to fall into at some point:
The universe has existed forever and is continually expanding and will continue to do so to infinity .... best evidence suggests to me otherwise (entropy, big bang)
The universe has been continually contract and expanding forever (again the more the big bang becomes apparent this wanes)
The universe is a created thing and must have been done by an intelligent force outside the universe ... God?
When I consider the existence of the universe, which I do consider to be real (for the skeptics), I am compelled to believe that God exists. Now I hope to know God and all since I find that other conclusions to the universe's origins lacking in comparison to the amount of evidence in support of the big bang creation.
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 03, 2001 07:08 AM |
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Hehe...
Why should an intelligent being create the universe? If this had happened, then probably that more universes had,have and will exist, and ours is not the only or the most
important one. If A Being created the universe then i doubt that it cares what happens to billions of civilizations in particular... Perhaps the fate of the whole universe would matter to it, but i doubt that each and every mortal would be able to reach it with their prayers...
Since this being created the universe, what our religions call Gods are but simple Aspects, given form and power by the desires and fears of the masses.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 03, 2001 10:05 AM |
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some possibilities Zedrin
Quote:
Hehe...
Why should an intelligent being create the universe? If this had happened, then probably that more universes had,have and will exist, and ours is not the only or the most
important one. If A Being created the universe then i doubt that it cares what happens to billions of civilizations in particular... Perhaps the fate of the whole universe would matter to it, but i doubt that each and every mortal would be able to reach it with their prayers...
Since this being created the universe, what our religions call Gods are but simple Aspects, given form and power by the desires and fears of the masses.
Why should an intellegent being do anything? I would imagine cause they want to?
If there are other universes?? I don't care a whole lot until I meet someone from one and even then it shall just be a new experience.
How I could think what a being like this is actually capable of I cannot really postulate...but to understand thoughts might be pretty easy if one was powerful enough to create a universe.
Also, if there was a maker for this maker of our universe I think we only might care in practical terms about the responsibilities we might have to a maker of this universe.
Religions? I would think maybe investigation would help unless we close our minds to that option. Funny people like to believe in hugely minute possibilities life on other planets and yet have such a hard time exploring possible existence of God. Seems to me people just scared they might be held accountable to the morality of some God? Thus, they start out wanting to disprove an existence so their can continue making up their own rules for themselve in line with whatever desire they have.
I think some of the scared will even post here that we are somehow off topic rather than explore. I see the the discussion as still on topic as the conversation progresses. Wether we reach a unanimous single conclusion is probably unlikely, but still good discussion is always profitable in my thinking. Of course I consider this good discussion obviously.
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 03, 2001 10:30 AM |
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I personally do not believe in a God, at least not in a God conscious of our presence.
Long ago i had a theory that suited me...long ago. I thought that there were two forces, Good and Evil, pure and indefinable. These forces could be called anything since they both contained everything. You could only tell them apart if they were both present.
Where these forces met, huge amounts of energy were released. Some of that energy changed to matter and thus an "infinity"(sounds better than "a huge number") of Universes appeared, each containing both forces in different amounts. Thus we would be just an accident, byproduct of an eternal conflict.
We would be alone, without any outside help, since these forces are not sentient.
That was long ago though, when things were simpler.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 03, 2001 11:05 AM |
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Zedrin interesting point…but if there is a supernatural being then our limited sense of consciousness would not be comparable to their ability (thus supernatural/omnipotent)…so in the end I don’t think it is a necessarily limitation
The Castrated…first lets start with the understanding that in your thoughtful example of two identical persons…this cannot ever exist in reality.
Second God's judgement is not based upon any specific action but is based upon the belief in a sin nature…we are naturally born sinners (i.e. selfishness etc)…ok peoples don’t crucify me for saying that..lol. That is the whole purpose of parenting in one sense as children are not innocent as we would like to romantically portray but instead are born with a self centered nature that can lead to selfishness, fighting, hate, etc (thus we all deserve “hell” including myself).
I do not believe God judges us on anything that we do not have a choice in. That is why free will, sin, and responsibility fit so nicely in my theological understanding. There is no predetermined fate in my world view. We are only held responsible for what we are free to choose or reject. I hope I didn’t totally misunderstand your example God was only angry at Moses for his free will rejection (not fate) of God’s direction. I agree that if everything were fate then judgment would be a ridiculous and cruel consequence.
Mocara I appreciate your open mindedness! “I absolutely despise religion personally but have no problems with people who are religious. I cannot propose to disprove their beliefs about Jesus or Buddha, etc. “ I think in the end neither those with a specific faith nor those without a similar faith (or lack thereof) can ever PROVE their belief…as neither are truly 100% provable.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 03, 2001 11:14 AM |
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Shae either I was very unclear or you didn’t understand what I was saying. I feel compelled to respond to what I perceive as a misunderstanding/misquote. I never intended to imply that those who don’t follow a God can’t be honorable. To the contrary-everyone can be honorable, but for me I find my definition of what it means to be honorable through my spiritual beliefs.
To do what God tells me is the essence of free will in my opinion…for I am not forced to follow but choose to follow. Your description of God as telling me to do something inappropriate does not follow in my belief system as I believe he is all knowing and all loving-thus he would never direct me to do something that is “wrong”.
You must of clearly misunderstood what I said if you found hypocrisy-what exactly was I hypocritical about? Hypocrisy to me means that you preach one thing and judge people while you have no intention of attempting to comply with what you preached about in the first place.
Shae you seem to be working under some great misunderstandings of the historical context of the Bible. You are most definitely incorrect when you state that the Bible was written 4 centuries after Jesus’ death (See dead sea scrolls, archaeological evidence, mentioned by numerous non-Christian historians, 24,000 other manuscript copies, etc.[compare this to some of Plato’s works which only have 7 original copies]) The Bible was written over 1500 years by over 40 authors (who were peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, kings and scholars, etc.), in three languages, in three continents.
The latest New Testament book was written about 100 AD. Now if you are talking about when it was all gathered together by the Synod of Hippo (AD 393) then you are more accurate about your original date (compare this to the time span of Hommer’s Iliad whose original text was found 643 years after his death). Another example about its historical accuracy is found through textual criticism which has brought into question only 40 lines of the Bible whereas 764 lines of the Iliad are in question.
Contrary to your assumption the Bible claims to be written by divine interpretation so in a way it was “written” under his guidance. It offers a multitude of proofs for God’s existence over and over and over (i.e. II Timothy 3:16 “all Scripture is inspired by God”)
Well just some of my beliefs. Hope I didn’t offend anyone Sorry for such a long post.....I felt I must correct some misconceptions about my posts.
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 03, 2001 11:20 AM |
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Dargon, nice one
But if you say that our understanding of consciousness is not enough for a superior being, then we are unable to detect the presence of God or understand him. Then this is in vain since God can only be made himself known through direct action, and cannot comunicate with his "subjects"..
Btw, what makes hate a negative feeling?(except our own biased opinions) I have used hate to a great extent, and i can safely say that it is a very productive feeling.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 03, 2001 11:32 AM |
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at least it was long ago :) ....i take it that means abandoned now?
Quote:
I personally do not believe in a God, at least not in a God conscious of our presence.
Long ago i had a theory that suited me...long ago. I thought that there were two forces, Good and Evil, pure and indefinable. These forces could be called anything since they both contained everything. You could only tell them apart if they were both present.
Where these forces met, huge amounts of energy were released. Some of that energy changed to matter and thus an "infinity"(sounds better than "a huge number") of Universes appeared, each containing both forces in different amounts. Thus we would be just an accident, byproduct of an eternal conflict.
We would be alone, without any outside help, since these forces are not sentient.
That was long ago though, when things were simpler.
Were you posting this for nestalgic reasons
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted May 03, 2001 11:51 AM |
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My friend Zedrin
Zedrin…thanks for the compliment…out of this thread the thing that I enjoy the most is that we can give each other compliments and understanding even if we disagree Shows a real maturity on your part…lol…I hope I can be as mature
Well I agree that if there is a greater consciousness that is past our ability to comprehend then we are really out of luck. According to my spiritual beliefs that is why Jesus came in human form and God inspired men to write about him…so that we can have some grasp about who he is. We will never have full understanding in this life, but I believe he has given us enough to get us where we need to be
Hate in my opinion is never good (hate seems to enslave us)…anger is an understandable and a natural feeling…but how we respond to our anger is the really critical point to me.
Oh yeah back to the thread...honor (for those purist in the audiance)...it is a really cool thing that we should try to emulate;P
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted May 03, 2001 02:08 PM |
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Dargon
Sorry, I always thought that the bible was written after Jesus' death, not during or before it. Call me uneducated in these things, lol.
I read your post many many times because I knew that you were trying to tell us something different and I know that you meant no deliberate harm by it. But after reading it so many times, your, shall we say 'wording', led me to the conclusion that I made. You have clarified things greatly and I thank you. You have made much more sense to me now.
Once again, I am sorry.
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MatronBaenre
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Zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted May 03, 2001 06:22 PM |
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If hate enslaves us, doesn't love enslave us also... or should i say passion, since hate seems to be the "upgraded" version of anger, as passion is to love
And thus our discussion seems to be going towards Gods and feelings, towards the immaterial and improbable, to the land where nothing is ever certain...
Won't this be fun?
"The purists" as you put it Dargon will be terribly angered.
How nice
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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This thread is pages long: 
