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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 06, 2009 04:03 PM |
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That's what I'm saying? I got called a Troll for it.
The only second critique I have with the capitalistic system is that it places productivity and profits at a higher priority than the wellbeing of living organisms.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 06, 2009 04:08 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 16:09, 06 Feb 2009.
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Quote:
Talking to you about economics is like teaching a quadriplegic how to swim. I'm done. You will never listen. You will never even come close to listening.
Well mvass, nobody listens... only you do, right? Probably you're expecting others to do what you don't? 
@Deadman:Quote:
Marx would be ashamed - he rightly supported conquering nature.
And who gives a **** that Marx would be ashamed anyway?
I am a socialist, not a "modern" hippie, but not Marxist either.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted February 06, 2009 04:12 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 16:13, 06 Feb 2009.
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Quote:
I am a socialist. But, from what I've seen, I cannot associate myself with the modern Left. It's full of hippies, deep ecologists, and black/hispanic/female supremacist groups. Marx would be ashamed - he rightly supported conquering nature.
So... um...
You support the un-environmentally aware, Earth-destructive, discriminative, culture-controlling kind of socialism?
We already tried that, you know. It was called communism and it killed 50 million people.
Thanks, but I think I'll go with the hippies.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 06, 2009 04:14 PM |
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I think I like your way of thinking.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 06, 2009 10:47 PM |
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DeadMan:
Eh, I agree, sort of. Marx really would be ashamed at the modern left. Half of them have (rightly [lol pun]) abandoned socialism, and the other half has attracted all kinds of riffraff. But I'm not a socialist, so...
But "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is a bad principle.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 07, 2009 12:30 AM |
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Quote:
That's what I'm saying? I got called a Troll for it.
It's all about mode of delivery, my friend.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 07, 2009 01:02 PM |
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I think it's already been established my way of delivery blows epicly proportioned monkeyballs
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DeadMan
Known Hero
The True Humanitarian
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posted February 09, 2009 03:55 PM |
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Quote:
You support the un-environmentally aware, Earth-destructive, discriminative, culture-controlling kind of socialism?
The proletariat is the most important species on Earth. The environment exists to serve it. Deep ecologism is a capitalist attempt to hijack the left - and this attempt has been rather successful.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 09, 2009 04:00 PM |
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Quote:
The proletariat is the most important species on Earth.
It surely doesn't live up for that title. If it is the most important then it should show that by not being greedy or demanding authority or control as they please
Only one species is capable of choosing a graceful exit; all others march on like robots. To call time and limit on the human race by choice, not necessity, would be the final victory of the human spirit over animal nature, an absolute emancipation from the diktat of DNA. Everyone, including humanity, must earn to live up to its title and respect, nothing is granted.
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DeadMan
Known Hero
The True Humanitarian
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posted February 09, 2009 04:05 PM |
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Quote:
If it is the most important then it should show that by not being greedy or demanding authority or control as they please
For too long has the proletariat been denied its place in the sun. The proletariat is already everything - it is the machine that makes everything run. I just want them to have political and economic power that reflects their importance in the world.
Quote:
To call time and limit on the human race by choice, not necessity, would be the final victory of the human spirit over animal nature, an absolute emancipation from the diktat of DNA.
You call yourself a man of the left, after saying such destructive things? The socialist is a lover of humanity, not a hater, as you are. You reflect the morally corrupt ideas that the capitalists have implanted in your brain - that nothing is worth anything.
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I don't matter. You don't matter. But we matter.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted February 09, 2009 04:54 PM |
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Quote:
You reflect the morally corrupt ideas that the capitalists existentialists have implanted in your brain - that nothing is worth anything.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 09, 2009 05:38 PM |
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Quote:
For too long has the proletariat been denied its place in the sun. The proletariat is already everything - it is the machine that makes everything run. I just want them to have political and economic power that reflects their importance in the world.
That's like being arrogant. Sorry but one thing is to deserve to be respected, another to command respect without deserving it, as you put it.
Quote:
You call yourself a man of the left, after saying such destructive things? The socialist is a lover of humanity, not a hater, as you are. You reflect the morally corrupt ideas that the capitalists have implanted in your brain - that nothing is worth anything.
I don't love things that don't deserve to. Of course I don't blame "humanity", but don't expect me to love them unconditionally and respect them without them deserving that. If you want to be called important or respected, then earn it.
By the way, I'm not a socialist because I love the human species. I'm a socialist because it advocates collective ideals (not individual) and because it is not based on selfishness (aka "profit"). This is one example (selfishness) why I don't like humanity. And your 'humanity' will not earn that either -- they'll just be selfish to their own species, thinking that they can command and do everything at will and then DARE to be loved and respected by, let's say, aliens 
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 09, 2009 10:58 PM |
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DeadMan:
The proletariat aren't a species. Are you suggesting that capitalists and proletarians can't have fertile children?
And as for the proletariat being everything.... wow, just wow.
Father:
You, like most people who say that they want to do away with economy, would merely replace it with a socialist one. To be honest, you have plenty of bad ideas, but seeing as how you don't want me to point them out, I won't, except suffice to say that there is no such thing as "free". You want me to present a positive program. Very well, I shall do so.
The fundamental principle of the economy should be free voluntary exchange. It's common sense. If you have something I want, and I have something you want, then we should trade it - and no one should stop us - and this exchange would make both of us better off. Thus, the government should interfere as little as possible in that area.
However, the government has a significant role to play. For example, a physically strong individual might simply initiate aggression against a physically weaker one, and thus no exchange would occur. This is why the government has to have police, courts, and jails, to prevent such things from happening and to punish wrongdoers when these things do happen. Thus, defense and law enforcement are the first duty of government.
The second duty of government concerns public goods, including various fields from the environment (partially) to education to defense (again). While people may voluntarily exchange in a way that benefits both of them, sometimes their exchange imposes costs upon people not involved in it. (Pollution and global warming are two prime examples of this.) Thus, the government has to make sure that the individuals pay for the environmental costs they impose on others. A practical application would be a gas tax.
Education is a similar situation - except that the externality it provides is positive. Regular exchange would indeed make the teacher better off (it would, or otherwise he/she wouldn't teach!) and it makes the student better off, but society as a whole is better off as well, because an educated populace has benefits beyond that of the individuals' higher productivity. A suggested application would be education vouchers, but they have problems, so I favor free public education up to the university level.
A third duty is that of managing the money supply. A recession could be much more dangerous if adroit monetary policy would not be there to counter it. That is why central banks must regulate the money supply.
And I would also like to address a specific case - that of workers being displaced by globalization. Free trade is a good thing. It makes the poor of the third world much richer - and it lowers the price of products as well. In the long run, everyone benefits. In the short run, nearly everyone benefits - except for the domestic workers who are displaced by the cheaper foreign workers. However, the best solution is not to prevent them from being displaced (as it would harm a great number of people) but to make sure they can get new jobs. That's why there has to be an extensive retraining program, and unemployment benefits that feed the workers while they are being retrained and looking for a new job.
TheDeath:
Your collectivism really bothers me. How can you be such an anti-individualist?
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Eccentric Opinion
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted February 09, 2009 11:30 PM |
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@Deadman
Have you ever tried to live in a communist country?
Just asking.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 09, 2009 11:34 PM |
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Quote:
Your collectivism really bothers me. How can you be such an anti-individualist?
Oh, well it isn't exactly anti-individualism. It's more like, doing something NOT for the reward (profit), but still being able, obviously, to be decent like others (welfare or whatever you wanna call it). For example, if you contribute free stuff to society, you're not going to be frowned upon as in capitalism where 'no profit = idiot'. That is, in capitalism, you are forced and encouraged to use your selfishness.
Not to mention, a capitalist society is itself selfish (as a whole I mean) just like DeadMan's communism society would be, since even the society itself cares only about its own "profits" in that case.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 10, 2009 12:27 AM |
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Under capitalism, it's not "no profit = idiot". It's "stealing others' stuff = idiot".
And, as I have described previously, self-interest is a good thing. But do you really want to get into that?
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 10, 2009 12:54 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 00:59, 10 Feb 2009.
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Quote:
And, as I have described previously, self-interest is a good thing.
What good thing? That's subjective, because "good" goal is subjective (one could say money, other could say productive, other could say love, it depends etc...)
I said it encourages selfishness because, be honest, you can't survive long in capitalism without being selfish and getting profits (or the alternative: seek donations ). The problem is that humans are inclined to this because everyone thinks they can become Bill Gates if they "work hard" or "study hard" (too bad it's a fantasy). The idea is that, instead of encouraging an already flaw in humanity, it's like giving a disease an even better way of spreading (accelerating it), we should cure it.
but that's a metaphor
By the way:Quote:
The fundamental principle of the economy should be free voluntary exchange. It's common sense. If you have something I want, and I have something you want, then we should trade it - and no one should stop us - and this exchange would make both of us better off. Thus, the government should interfere as little as possible in that area.
Mvass, whose property is Earth? Or its resources? (this includes pollution). "Property" when given a broader range is the inherent flaw in capitalism -- flaw as in UNFAIR.
Don't tell me "tough luck" that you claimed some property before me, if you used force to claim it, I can too (read: the government, in this socialist case). Someone must have first created some contract, you don't make contracts with God "Hey, I want to buy this piece of Earth" or stuff like that. (arguably, you could pollute something if it was yours, but it isn't). ESPECIALLY if with said property you make stuff and SELL stuff. (of course, that's only if we lived in socialism, right now we're kinda forced to be selfish to survive...)
There's a reason it is called a society and not just some gathering of people.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 10, 2009 01:01 AM |
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First, not everyone can be like Bill Gates. Anyone who thinks so is deluded. But no one has to be poor. Everyone can be at least middle class if they try.
Second, you can't survive under socialism at all. You have to go work in Gulag or Comrade Commissar will shoot you.
And "good" means whatever people want. The satisfaction of demand is maximum in a capitalist system.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 10, 2009 01:03 AM |
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Quote:
Second, you can't survive under socialism at all. You have to go work in Gulag or Comrade Commissar will shoot you.
That's communism
Think of it as non-profit organizations, without the donations (because they are automatically) 
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 10, 2009 01:06 AM |
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But true socialism inherently leads towards authoritarianism. And who would make these donations?
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Eccentric Opinion
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This thread is pages long: 
