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| Thread: Collaboration project: Let's make a Dwarven Fortress! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 21, 2008 09:30 PM |
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Ok to try to summarize the latest posts, this is what I get:
Elemental theme: Fire and Ice combined.
Constructs or not: Not, apparantly. At least not completely.
Defenders: In
(Polar) Bears: In
Rune Priests: In
Magma Dragons: In
(Thunder) Thanes: Out
Thunderbirds: Out
Wolves: Out, probably (remain Neutral).
Dragon Golems: Perhaps?
Efreeti: Perhaps?
Another topic I would like to have your feedback on is the low-level ranged unit of the fortress. To be honest, the whole concept of Spear Wielder seems a bit thin to me, the Harpooner even more so. What are your oppinions on this - do we like them, or do they go? And what do we want instead - the old Hafling slinger? Something new?
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What will happen now?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 21, 2008 09:34 PM |
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Low-tier shooters yes or no should be based on the lineups of other factions and the places shooters have there. At least I would personally aim for diverse lineups. If there are already 2 lineups that have a shooter at tier 2 and 5, I wouldn't use that same shooter lineup for Fortress, it makes the factions less diverse.
Other than that the whole harpooner concept is plain crap, of course.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted February 21, 2008 09:35 PM |
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While I would prefer reintroducing the good ol' halfling, i do not really see any viable background for its appearance in h6. If h6 will take where the dm:elements left off (just supposing it could end this way!!!!), ashan will be shattered into pieces just as we saw in that mysterious map some time ago and so mutations might affect the land (thus, the halflings).
Otherwise, there are possibilities like the aforementioned and proposed so commonly falconer unit which in a sense is a ranged unit. It would be nice and I would definately understand why erling comes with an owl-ish bird on its shoulder.
As well, there could be magical dwarven entities among them taking up a ranged unit's space in the faction's lineup. Dunno anything about them and that is just a mere proposal but it might work.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 21, 2008 09:38 PM |
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Please don't put halflings and dwarves in the same town again. There is absolutely no reason for that. They live in different types of societies in different climats and areas and in all the HoMM history were united only once by the game that among othr things brought us the infernopolish.
That being said a dwarf spear weilder does sound kinda awkward and should probably be replaced. So I would like to present (again) the idea of Rock Giant (I say giant because the word golem took the discussion in a different direction). He can be a sturdy stone hurler. They can be smaller than I first thought they would be to fit their 3rd tier and could even have abilities similiar to spear wielder - short range, cripple. Of course the harpoon is out, but we could add a stun effect or something entirely new.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 21, 2008 09:40 PM |
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You should like the concept I had for a Rock Giant then, Geny  I pictured them as Dungeon tier 6 units, with HP and Defense on par with tier 7 units, and Ranged attack abilities on par with tier 5 units.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 21, 2008 09:45 PM |
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Somehow, it's hard for me to picture them in Dungeon, but let's not get too off-topic in alc's thread. Who knows what that might lead to.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted February 21, 2008 09:48 PM |
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Quote:
Thunderbirds: Out
Why, actually?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 21, 2008 09:49 PM |
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Fire = good
Fire + Water = straining, but hanging on
Fire + Water + Air = Devestatingly messy.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted February 21, 2008 09:51 PM |
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My vote on that matter goes to Ice, Water or whatever: a true mountainous snow-based town is missing here, while the Inferno already covers the Fire aspect, leaving us (me at least) a little overwhelmed with all that flame...
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 21, 2008 10:05 PM |
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I discarded Thunderbird to avoid the Lightning taint which sort of messes up things. Guess one could go with a Frostbird instead. Likewise, I have to admit I'm not overly excited with the concept of a Rock Giant (or Rock whatever) here, as again, it seems to mess up things a bit. Maybe that's just me.
I agree Halflings are perhaps not the best unit to put with the Dwarves, but what about Gnomes? I think Gnome/Dwarf industrious societies have been heard of before, and a Gnome smurf could go in to support a possibly mechanical unit. That being said, I dislike the idea of minor races taken up the place of smurf units with major races.
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What will happen now?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted February 21, 2008 10:12 PM |
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This might sound a little ignorant and sorry about that, but Halflings might be far more suited than Gnomes as they have a background in the series' storyline: back in Heroes II they weirdly acted as allies of the Wizards, in Heroes III they were wandering victims of the Kreegans' war and more settled in Heroes IV.
They do fall into place in the Fortress... apart from the same old neutrals, where else would they go? Not the desert, that's for sure They've been around for three installments, that's significant enough to warrant a return, and Fortress would be ideal choice.
Agreed that too many concepts what with the Thunderbird and all should not be tied in at once, but I aim for an Air 'n' Water based Fortress rather than the "been there done that" Fire and Earth version, or the Ice / Fire paradox.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 21, 2008 11:21 PM |
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Been developing a dwarf town since HoMM5 was in the planning stages, and thus have:
Lvl 1
Gremlin (Academy now gets novices at level 1) ~ cannon fodder
Lvl 2
Gremlin Mage ~ low end spellcaster
Lvl 3
Dwarf  Axehurler ~ basic infantry low level archer, bad range, good damage
Lvl 4
Berserker ~ faster offensive unit
or
Crossbow ~ more normalised archer than Axehurler
Lvl 5
Iron Golem Iron Warrior ~ powerful tanker, immune to mind spells
Lvl 6
Thane ~ good spellcaster, uses gold instead of mana
or
Sentinel ~ v. tough defensive unit
Lvl 7
Dragon Gold Dragon ~ basic tough dragon also provides gold
As for the special buildings
Ore Mine ~ +2 ore per day (town uses more ore than wood)
Gold Mine ~ +1000 gold per day
Armourer ~ +1 defence per visiting hero
Weaponsmith ~ can also build ammo cart (main siege engine is ballista)
Bastion ~ adds to strength of fortifications.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 21, 2008 11:23 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:25, 21 Feb 2008.
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I think H6 Fortress should be insipired by norse mythology.
So this would be my creature line-up.
1. Defender-Rune Defender/Hillguard, walker
2. Dire Wolf-Fenris Wolf/Alpha Wolf, walker
3. Berserker-Gladiator/Einhjar, walker
4. Runepriest-Runemaster/Valkyrie (female dwarf), shooter & caster
5. Roc-Thunderbird/Firebird, flyer
6. Mountain Giant-Flame Giant/Frost Giant, walker
7. Wyrm-Nigghog-Jormungandr, walker
That would be mine creature line-up.
Yes i like Valkyries, i use them in all my snow or mountain towns.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 21, 2008 11:34 PM |
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I actually like the idea of Gremlin mages at tier 2...
usually, mages at low tiers is a non-issue, but it makes sense when a generally weak species has their "stronget" type at a low tier. That really fits.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted February 22, 2008 12:43 AM |
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Thought: For level one, how about having a tomte?
They're sortof farm spirits that would tend the animals, esspecially during winter. I think they could be warrior units, called to fight but unhappy about it. They have the ability of pacifing animals, decreasing their (attack/damage/initiative)
When I say animals, I mean beast units. Unicorns, for instance, Hell Hounds, Griffins, etc. all count as animals. And there could be a partial effect for mounts (Bear Riders, Champions, etc) since they are somewhat domestic.
I know this would make them weaker agianst Necropolis and Academy, but there is surely a way around that.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 22, 2008 01:25 AM |
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Tomte means Santa in swedish
However up to 80 years ago people in sweden belived that small "gnomes" helped them in their farms.
If you didnt give them milk (it was something like that) they became unhappy and caused destruction on the farm
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted February 22, 2008 01:54 AM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 01:57, 22 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
Ok to try to summarize the latest posts, this is what I get:
Elemental theme: Fire and Ice combined.
Constructs or not: Not, apparantly. At least not completely.
Defenders: In
(Polar) Bears: In
Rune Priests: In
Magma Dragons: In
(Thunder) Thanes: Out
Thunderbirds: Out
Wolves: Out, probably (remain Neutral).
Dragon Golems: Perhaps?
Efreeti: Perhaps?
I liked berserkers, but disliked bears. The whole idea of dwarven rider is ankward to me.
Imho, only bears and spear throwers need replacement.
And i would prefer frost theme to fire. Demons are there to do that already.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 22, 2008 02:30 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 02:46, 22 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
Imho, only bears and spear throwers need replacement.
Crossbows replacing spears maybe. The problem with removing bears is the fact that most dwarf units are slower than those in contemporary towns, so they need something that can go a bit faster than the others, especially as they also lack ranged units at lower levels.
Quote:
And i would prefer frost theme to fire. Demons are there to do that already.
Agreed, after all, dwarves were originally a nordic race, so I think it would make sense for them to have ice/frost based spells. (The nordic version of Hell was Hel, a dead icy land).
A few styling issues as well, give the defenders proper axes and shields, and lose the tartan in favour of leather.
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 22, 2008 05:22 AM |
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If I remember right.. didn't Alc made a Dwarf town long before it was announced? (but his were bit differnt from the expansion version.. and I like his better)
For line up.. what is now is not bad.. the only problem is the Magma Dragon... Dwarfs just don't seem to be worshiper of Fire Dragon that much (atleast in my book)
I would go kinda with Xerox's line up...
1. Miner/Defender
2. Axe Thrower/ Hammer Thrower
3. Bear Rider/Armor Bear Rider
4. Brawler/Berserker
5. Rune Priest/ Rune Patriarch
6. Mountain Giant/ Frost Giant
7. War Maiden / Valkyries
and some abilites would be differnt too.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 22, 2008 08:36 AM |
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Yeah, I made a Dwarven town long ago, but that was on a different set of premises than the Nival one. When I started this project, it was not really to come up with a "new" line-up as to see what the current line-up should have been to satisfy people. Thus, I want to stick with the mythological framework of Heroes 5, i.e. Dwarves worship Dragon of Fire, and I also want to keep them in the Arctic setting.
From what I gather, the main issues as it is now are with level 2 (or 1) and level 6. What I get in a general impression so far for the different levels is this:
Level 1: The defender works pretty good. Could be moved to level 2, if we want a smurf (possibly a foreign creature) to enter the line-up. Style is Viking / Arctic.
Level 2: The Spearwielder is out. The concept of a Dwarf hauling a spear is not very popular. The big question is what goes in its place. A range of different smurfs have been suggested, but in the spirit of Heroes 5, I would like to know whether anybody can come up with a healthy concept of a ranged Dwarven unit - or, if this unit should be ranged at all?
Level 3 and 4: The Bears are a pretty good concept that fits well with the Arctic theme. For balance reasons, I would probably move the Bears to level 4 and drag the Berserkers - also a very good thematic unit that fits right into the Viking theme - down to level 3. They suck pretty much at level 4 anyway. Style is Viking / Arctic for Berserker and Arctic for Bear.
Level 5: Here would remain the Rune Priest. This is a very sound concept, because it fits right into the mythological aspect, the thematic aspect, and fills an important place as shooter/caster in the line-up. Also links the Fire-Ice theme very nicely. Style is Viking / Arctic coupled with Fire.
Level 6: This is the big joker. There are so many options of what we want here, and none of them seem completely perfect. Options are Dragon Golem, Thunderbird, Frost Eagle, Fire Thane, Lightning Thane, Efreet, Valkyrie ... you name it.
Level 7: I still think the majority support the Fire Dragon here, and it is a conceptually pretty good unit I think, as well as it takes up very well the role as the tanky level 7 of the game (a bit too well, perhaps, but that could be fixed). Style is Fire.
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What will happen now?
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