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| Thread: HC Olympics: Calm Arguing |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted August 31, 2008 12:59 PM |
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but now you have been converted to quoting and I have never heard of somebody who has recovered from quoting.  
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2008 12:59 PM |
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I will do this. I need to practice.
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Message received.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 31, 2008 05:33 PM |
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I'll judge... This'll be so much fun...
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted August 31, 2008 05:39 PM |
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Wow, so many people who like to argue! 
Well, I'm still waiting for Mvass to say that he's in. I'll start this later.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted September 01, 2008 01:44 PM |
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Don't take this personally. It's mostly not even my opinion, it's just a part of the game. This is only something to argue with.
@William, Asheera, Lexxan and Eugen (Tavern):
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You always praise your own team, talk about how good it is, and it might be getting a bit annoying. It isn't that amazing, so maybe you can actually play more and talk less.
@TheDeath, Azagal, JoonasTo (OSM):
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You are in a forum which what you do in it is generally fighting with each other, arguing and creating mess. Wouldn't this forum be more calm and better without your forum, without those endless arguments? HC would be a much more peaceful place.
@Dj and anti (Libary):
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Your team members always try only what they're good at. Why not doing other things, just for the fun, not for winning?
@Mytical (Glade):
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Why did you stop trying to make the Glade work? It seems like you're desperate of the forum, why did you have to stop?
@Skeleton_King (VW):
Spamming in a pointless way and laughing about spam is what going on in the VW. It's not even funny anymore. Why do we even need it?
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted September 01, 2008 01:49 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 13:50, 01 Sep 2008.
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You always praise your own team, talk about how good it is, and it might be getting a bit annoying.
*sigh* I never expected someone outside the Tavern to understand. See, we simply are one of the , if not the, best team around. It's a simple fact.
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It isn't that amazing, so maybe you can actually play more and talk less
Play more? Excuse, me Gadi, but I'm sorry to say that me already participated in every game of the olympics, I don't know how we can participate more... Win more, yes, but that's another case.
btw:
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You are in a forum which what you do in it is generally fighting with each other, arguing and creating mess. Wouldn't this forum be more calm and better without your forum, without those endless arguments? HC would be a much more peaceful place.
Owned
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted September 01, 2008 02:23 PM |
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@Lexxan: It seems to me that even in such a game as this one which requires the abolishing of Quote Wars, your affection to the Quote Reply button is something that can't be controlled. Strangely enough, people look at me as the ultimate Quote War machine, but to be honest I've never been too fond of them, except when arguing with mvass for some reason that I gave up some weeks ago (gave up in Quote Wars I mean).
Anyway onto the quote:
Quote:
You are in a forum which what you do in it is generally fighting with each other, arguing and creating mess. Wouldn't this forum be more calm and better without your forum, without those endless arguments? HC would be a much more peaceful place.
This quote is both interesting and kinda hard to reply to because I can't find where to start from. While I agree that quote wars, arguing with each other and "fighting" as you put it create "mess", it is by no means limited or even implied by the OSM, but rather by seriousness. There are many threads and excellent posts in there that should not get overlooked. What I find somewhat disturbing however, is the lack of serious discussions in some members. We all know that chilling out is good, but we have to draw a line somewhere, and not treat everything as a joke. That is one of the purposes of the OSM, I believe, but also sometimes in Tavern!
Now let me say first that I agree with most points made. The OSM has become a warfield that serves very little of it's original purpose: the discussion of serious problems or point of views. Flame wars serve absolutely no purpose, especially if viewed from those NOT involved in them. It is something that has to end somewhere.
I hate discussion that need to "take sides" as if it's some kind of competition -- the OSM is about discussions. Everyone has to think up reasons and read the informative posts, not the flame junk. People that I qualify as contributors are mainly those that don't get involved in flame wars, or "defend" a position, but simply put out their thoughts on the subject. People like mvass (I remember he said it somewhere in the abortion thread) need to realize that this is not some kind of game, which is a childish view IMO, where someone "wins" or not. The only one that wins is you, the one that reads the new informative stuff and only your deep thinking "wins".
Recently the OSM has been a place where people start to not only express their own thoughts, but actually even provoke or attack those that do not share them. Discussions are mainly interesting when people have something to add.
I have also figured out another of OSM's qualities: you get to know people better. You get to know their beliefs, thoughts and views on a given subject. It is just as important as knowing people in real life. This is one of the things that is still "alive" in the OSM and not turned into a stupid flame war
Basically I agree a radical change of attitude in the OSM is required, but NOT a less serious one. Not everything is a joke and mature people have to draw a line somewhere and balance out when it's the time for jokes and when you should get serious enough.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted September 01, 2008 02:44 PM |
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Quote:
@Lexxan: It seems to me that even in such a game as this one which requires the abolishing of Quote Wars, your affection to the Quote Reply button is something that can't be controlled. Strangely enough, people look at me as the ultimate Quote War machine, but to be honest I've never been too fond of them, except when arguing with mvass for some reason that I gave up some weeks ago (gave up in Quote Wars I mean).
LMAO. Don't worry, I love the Quotes Reply button as much as Omega likes chickens. You aren't seen as the Ultimate Quoting machine, Mr. Vassilevsky is. You only have...eh.. the urge to make us understand your point (means: you are very opinionated )
And you gave up in Quote Wars? Why would you give something up you're good at doing? (horrible grammer... :S) After all you gained the gold...
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 01, 2008 02:45 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 14:46, 01 Sep 2008.
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You always praise your own team, talk about how good it is, and it might be getting a bit annoying. It isn't that amazing, so maybe you can actually play more and talk less.
Actually, it is very amazing. The best threads are at the Tavern with a lot of diversity: funny and joke threads, excellent (word) games, the legendary What do you see in the Picture & Text, Despute Ring, threads about some sport games, interesting stories like William's and GL's, the great Peanut Planters and Sour Ram Testicle Throwers Headquartes, the Personalized HC Sigs, Phoenix's thread about playing Heroes online which helped a lot of people to actually start playing online (including myself), and the incredible "Ultimate Male's Guide". We also have interesting and useful threads like the Sociogram, the HC DICTIONARY and the Birthday List, and I think the list of great Tavern threads is endless. Moreover, the Olympic Games master thread itself is in the Tavern
Play more? I actually played in every contest that I had a chance (this means without the Heroes 3 ones, in which I have absolutely no idea) but even then the others from my team filled this hole. We have a lot of diversity in our team, just like a party of adventures should be (not have a party of 4 fighters, for example)
Talk less? That's a bad idea. You see, the interesting things which keep the Tavern superior to other forums is the incredible amount of talking. This lots amount of talking is the reason the Tavern is admired and praised. This is what keeps it alive. Talking less will make the Tavern fade in darkness and be only a shadow of its former glory. It will become almost a deserted place in which nobody will actually feel like at home. It will become exactly like the dreaded OSM: not very active, inflamatory posts and the rate of QPs/penalties will be below a value of 1 (which means more penalties than quality points)
And what about the VW, hmm? You see, every VW thread which is extremely good in that forum and needs to receive a Quality point is moved to the one and only Tavern. While the VW is more for SPAMing and some useless "chat" threads, the Tavern is the place to relax and have some good laughs, while still being able to read some interesting threads as well. Still, the fact that quality-worthy VW threads are moved to the Tavern implies that the VW is somehow of a "child" of the Tavern. A "bad" child, but at least it's part of this family. The bottom line is that the Tavern is so great that it had to expand in two sub-forums of HC. And this actually improved even more than it was, by splitting the "bad" sides of it in the VW and let only the "good" sides exist in the calm and relaxing place known as the Tavern.
There's another good thing about the Tavern: we have three (3!) Moderators watching over it, and this tops the number of Mods in the Discussion Boards. And great and active Mods, by the way.
Now truly, if there's a better place than the Tavern, it's only in your dreams.
Besides, lately this "praising" has shifted from the Tavern to the Other Side. For example, we have in this thread:
Azagal:Quote:
oO! Huge lead Joonas. Waaay to go. Wuuuuhu nice work .
Joonas:Quote:
Wouldn't wanna disappoint me mates, Azzie.
All for the good of the otherside!
And in this thread:
Azagal:Quote:
That's the OSM for you baby ~~
1 Gold, 3 Silver, 2 Bronze.... now we just need calm argueing to start and the trivia to end and it's byebye tavern.
Hahahaaa Don't take me serious guys I just love competitions xD.
Joonas:Quote:
But still...GO OSM GO!
It's true, sadly, the worst forum in HC (according to GL) is praised by some delusional members
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 01, 2008 03:00 PM |
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Quote:
Owned
Considering this is "Calm argueing" I don't exactly see the deeper purpose of that post. Not that I mind less competition though.
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You are in a forum which what you do in it is generally fighting with each other, arguing and creating mess. Wouldn't this forum be more calm and better without your forum, without those
endless arguments? HC would be a much more peaceful place.
Well perhaps it would be best to actually define what the OSM really is before we start debating on this subject.
The Otherside of the monitor
The otherside is a forum where the community can debate real life issues which makes it so unique compared to the other fora. In the other fora you are not neccessarily required to behave and (above all) to be serious. The otherside is a place where you share your point of view with other people and discuss other opinions, so the basic ideas and ideals of the OSM are highly informative and extremly cooperative (due to the high degree of communication).
More than any other fora the otherside is inparticulary dependant on it's participants. If you want to stay true to the ideals mentioned above you need participants who are able to reason. Why?
It is quite simply. No other fora comes anywhere close to the level of confrontation which we have in the otherside. Confrontation itself isn't a bad thing at all! It is by conflicting ideas that we are able to learn and develop .
Of course we have confrontations in other fora but the core difference (which gives the othersides it's temper if you'd like to call it that) is that they are not real life issues and will therefore never atain the level of seriousness any subject in the otherside has (when it is still unstained by unreasonable mass fights). And that is exactly why the participants need to be reasonable. Conflicting views require a healthy attitude towards discussing and explaining your point of view if not a discussion will turn into a "fight" which is far from any positive affect you ever wanted to achieve in the first place.
Unfortunately (as TheDeath has already explained) the othersides level of discussion has declined dramatically. But to abandon this forum simply because there is bad discussion going on? Not adequat if you ask me. Every poster has the responsibility to be reasonable when posting in general but it is of unmatched importance for the otherside. It is not the othersides fault that the level has declined.
And one of its great charms (and perhaps also it's biggest danger) is the fact that no where on this forum you'll get to see the true side of people like in the otherside. It is so simple. How can you see that in the Temple,Altar,Tavern,Wastelands, etc? It is never as clear as in the otherside because we have real and serious issues and no matter what your reply looks like it will most certainly tell you a little if not a lot about the poster. And that is why so many people here avoid the otherside because they are not brave enough to take a stand and to speak out.
Nevertheless there is no argueing that the otherside posters need to take more responsability in order for the otherside to become once more what it is ment to be. If you just take a little time searching the otherside you find things so wonderful and so interesting that you can't help but to apreciate them.
If you take away the otherside you take away the one place on HC where you actually are the person you are in its realest form.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 01, 2008 03:02 PM |
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Your team members always try only what they're good at. Why not doing other things, just for the fun, not for winning?
Its misleading if you thought this way,for both me and Dj attempts everything,exept h5 dual,and i didnt do that,becouse i dont belive in 3.1 patch,and i refuse to dl it on princip,terefore i will dual anyone,who has 3.0
also dj didnt do it,couse hes pc cant make h5 happen,i dont belive in 3d,so that why i didnt mod i was very close to gaining bronze or siliver in trivia,and i tried the qoute wars.
althought it seems that zamfir won,even if i qouted more then him
therfore and hence that it is wrong. Do you think not
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types in obscure english
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted September 01, 2008 03:02 PM |
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I don't like how this goes. Ash seems to provoke the OSM on something which the subject was not about. I didn't even comment one bit about the Tavern's flaws. And frankly I'm not even going to do it simply because this is supposed to be calm arguing. Suffice to say that the Tavern has attacked the OSM without any prior provocation by the OSM, but rather by GL's quote. Not to mention, this is supposed to be calm arguing -- Ash post is clearly a provocation for the OSM members to get in the "fight" but I will not attempt to do so.
Not many threads in the Tavern are "praise worthy". I for one do not like the so excellent Peanut Planters or SRTT HQs. Not everyone enjoys only funny jokes, some mature people are into serious discussions. This does not mean one is more praise worthy than another. This only means that everyone has different views. You may like jokes, that doesn't mean everyone enjoys them and they are praise worthy.
Just because the Tavern is the place to "relax" and you like relaxing does not mean it is praise worthy. Serious people that want to discuss mature subjects go in the OSM. I understand most of the OSM today is in the bottom of a hole, but we need to restore it to it's former glory as it once was. Not every serious member is after relaxation all the time.
Also, while you keep saying and point out examples (that are obviously some kind of joke) how the OSM members praise their team, you did so yourself in THIS post. You keep saying "the Tavern is so great that it had to expand in two sub-forums at HC". In short, there is little point in giving examples about the OSM team's flaws when you do them yourself. I don't think you have any kind of support to your statements in this respect, since you have fall in the trap yourself with that post.
And thank you for calling members "delusional", we appreciate your provocative argument.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 01, 2008 03:03 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 15:17, 01 Sep 2008.
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You only have...eh.. the urge to make us understand your point (means: you are very opinionated )
Which makes TheDeath one of the best posters out there simply because he cares about what he says and wants people to understand.
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It's true, sadly, the worst forum in HC (according to GL) is praised by some delusional members
GL I am also concerned about the direction this seems to take. I thought we were to discuss our given topics but what I currently see is that some find it more interesting to critize TheDeath (perhaps not intentionally). I hope you will say some guideing words or I shall take action as I don't see why I should tolerat such behaviour. TheDeath may take the honorable way of letting this pass but this competition is not half as important to me as defending people who are unjustifiedly being critizied...
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2008 03:07 PM |
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Hey, I'm in. Why'd you start without me?
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You are in a forum which what you do in it is generally fighting with each other, arguing and creating mess. Wouldn't this forum be more calm and better without your forum, without those endless arguments? HC would be a much more peaceful place.
There are several things to say here, not the least of them being that the Other Side could certainly be better. But the first thing that has to be noted is that the Other Side is a necessary and integral part of HC. Back in the day, in the stone age before I joined , there was no Other Side, so all Other Side-style discussions took place in the Tavern. The Other Side was created so serious discussions about the real world could be contained in one place, to make references to separate discussions easier, to encourage members not to worry if they're being off-topic posting a serious thread in the Tavern, to give members an organized place to read other members' thoughts/ideas, and to give members who don't want to browse through such threads the opportunity to not have to do so. All of these things the Other Side does admirably. At the most basic level, it allows its posters to say, "You don't like serious discussions? No one's forcing you to read them." However, a different problem arises. Many people do like serious discussions, but don't like the particular style of arguing favored these days, nor the subjects that are common topics of discussion. Indeed, unfortunately, many threads tend to degenerate into the same few subjects (capitalism, society/rights, weak vs. strong). It is understandable that a person who does not wish to discuss these topics would not find the Other Side much fun these days.
Another problem is that some members provoke others with their nationalistic, religous, or other frevor and attempt to bring the thread down into angry arguing, rather than calm discussion.
What is to be done? First I will say, and it should be no surprise to people reading this, that I disagree with TheDeath. He is right in that the Other Side is a place for discussions, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with taking sides. I mean, on many subjects a person can either be for, against, or apathetic, though on several subjects there are positions in between. Though people can differ on their bases (plural of basis) for their viewpoint, there is a finite number of positions one can take on a given question. Thus, it is perfectly normal for the "for" people to gather into a group, and the "against" people to do so as well. It is important for the basis for the view to be discussed as well, so the differing views within these two groups can be exposed, but here is where the Other Side often gets sidetracked - people get so busy discussing the philosophical bases that the original subject is forgotten.
Thus, what should be done? Perhaps a solution to this problem would be to have, as Celfious suggested, a separate subforum for philosophy. It's certainly an interesting idea. However, removing philosophy from the Other Side would leave very little in it, apart from "Downhill Times" and some political threads, because people's positions on the environment, abortion, etc. are formed by whatever philosophy they might have, and it is rather difficult to discuss the subject at hand without addressing the core philosophy that makes such views as they are.
To return to what I was saying previously, there is nothing wrong with people taking sides, as long as people don't do it for its own sake, and become belligerent or provocative towards members of the other side. But people who agree tend to clump together. And I see nothing wrong with defending a position. If you just put your thoughts out there, then someone will mentally counter them, but what? What good is that, if there is to be no discussion? One person will find flaws in the idea, while the proponents will defend it.
Finally, it would be nice not if people had less conviction but if they were less prone to anger, and less provocative. As I have asked numerous time, chill out. It's all for fun, anyway. (Note that there is a difference between "for fun" and "joke".)
Superfinally, there is a difference between being serious and being SIRIOUS. We can have serious discussions without being SIRIOUS. We can inject humor into some of the most serious of discussions and make them more fun, while keeping them serious. We can discuss something serious without being SIRIOUS. We have to be able to understand when someone is joking, and not have such easily bruised feelings.
And, lastly, two things. People need to have more endurance and not give up in discussions so easily. It's boring when they do. And, TheDeath, when I said, "You're just mad because you're losing." in the Abortion thread, there was an there to tell you that it was a joke. SIRIOUSness indeed. There's nothing wrong with injecting a bit of humor into a serious discussion.
Superlastly, I will say that removing the Other Side would make things worse, not better. It would spread such discussions into the Tavern, and I'm sure Taverners wouldn't like that.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted September 01, 2008 03:10 PM |
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BTW mvass what I meant with the "taking sides" things is that there are actually an almost infinite possible sides -- in an abortion thread, people may be pro-life, but each with different arguments, thus they are not, in the real sense, on the same "team", since there is no common goal apart from discussion (which would mean everyone is on the same team anyway ). It's not like a side wins or anything. Everyone has different micro-arguments for their macro-views (shall I say, larger classifications).
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 01, 2008 03:16 PM |
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I miss the point of this debate
everyone pretty much debates on what he wants,ignores the rest,an expect someone to do something?
Why do you think Ash provokes you into qouting her? so you would pay attention to her posts.
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types in obscure english
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 01, 2008 03:19 PM |
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Anti we are supposed to discuss the topics GL gave us. Not what other people had to say on their subjects nor what we think of other people. Besides provokeing people so that they respond is not a good idea wouldn't you say? And least of all in a contest with the name "Calm Argueing". Unless we'd get extrapoints for makeing others loose their temper.......?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 01, 2008 03:19 PM |
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@Death:Quote:
I don't like how this goes. Ash seems to provoke the OSM on something which the subject was not about. I didn't even comment one bit about the Tavern's flaws. And frankly I'm not even going to do it simply because this is supposed to be calm arguing. Suffice to say that the Tavern has attacked the OSM without any prior provocation by the OSM, but rather by GL's quote. Not to mention, this is supposed to be calm arguing -- Ash post is clearly a provocation for the OSM members to get in the "fight" but I will not attempt to do so.
Oh please, if you see it that way than you have serious problems
The point is, that the best way to counter the fact that you're guilty and prove your innocence is to compare yourself with someone who made things a lot worse than you and still is considered innocent and is not "attacked" by others. Of course, what I said was a metaphor, but in our case the Tavern is the one attacked of "self-praising" when actually the OSM did as well, and I pointed that to counter the accusations of the Tavern. If you really see this as provocations to the OSM when I just wanted to clear things up with GL then you're really weird
Besides, your last post was really a provocation, since you attacked my points from my post where I tried to explain the Tavern to GL. Of course, you "attacked" me with your subjective ideas, and that makes it more or less a provocation. Me, on the other hand, where I pointed out those "self-praising" OSM facts were really addressed to GL and were objective and not biased with my opinion one bit. It's really not my fault that you from OSM can't help yourselves to praise the "great" forum you have. I understand that we from the Tavern did this as well, but that's exactly why I pointed to GL that we are not the only ones to do it, so that these accusations will either be lifted as it should be, or go to OSM as well since otherwise it's not fair.
Oh and I'm sorry Death, but while you think I praise the Tavern, you're the one to actually say "I understand most of the OSM today is in the bottom of a hole", therefore you actually admit that the OSM is a bad place of HC. Thank you for your anti-support for the OSM And no, we don't need to "restore" the OSM since we're talking about the forums now. I mean, the OSM may even turn in a Tavern-like place but what's the point in arguing then? We should argue about the forums which exist today.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 01, 2008 03:25 PM |
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Would the OSM team mind not responding to that post? I think it'd be best to wait for GL to judge the situation. I don't see what good it would do (right now) to take Asheeras statements apart and point out what is right and what is wrong. If GL however chooses not to stop this cross over fighting you guys continue with the calm argueing and I shall focus on the "confrontation with non-on-subject posts".
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 01, 2008 03:28 PM |
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Ok, this post doesn't count, but I need to clarify myself:
Quote:
Quote:
It's true, sadly, the worst forum in HC (according to GL) is praised by some delusional members
GL I am also concerned about the direction this seems to take. I thought we were to discuss our given topics but what I currently see is that some find it more interesting to critize TheDeath (perhaps not intentionally). I hope you will say some guideing words or I shall take action as I don't see why I should tolerat such behaviour. TheDeath may take the honorable way of letting this pass but this competition is not half as important to me as defending people who are unjustifiedly being critizied...
1) I was joking with that "delusional" word (hence the smiley)
2) GENIELORD said:Quote:
You are in a forum which what you do in it is generally fighting with each other, arguing and creating mess. Wouldn't this forum be more calm and better without your forum, without those endless arguments? HC would be a much more peaceful place.
So it's not ME who attacked OSM.
And no, I haven't provoked anyone, and I didn't quote other's posts unlike TheDeath which immediately "attacked" me, as usual
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