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| Thread: Choosing hero vs random hero |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 09:46 AM |
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Choosing hero vs random hero
Any player on TOH have the right to select hero, faction for game. Only exception can be random hero tournament. I am right good people of TOH or not ?
Story of creation of this topic. From Msn -
14.12.2008 18:34:44 (#) Jinxer (#) So you cant stand it... when I go ahead of you on ranks.. you have to rush out and recruit another newbie on UBI server to use and abuse to get ahead of me ehhh? LMAO
14.12.2008 18:38:19 Infinitus i free for game for any with good ranking points, i proposed many time game to Willge but he was ocupied in other games  if you wish we can play on m2
14.12.2008 18:39:28 (#) Jinxer (#) I am just kidding with you mate... 
14.12.2008 18:43:53 Infinitus ahh, i see  take a look to m2, test in game with noobs i sure you will love this template i hope we play soon many nice games
14.12.2008 19:01:41 (#) Jinxer (#) well... I would love to play you many games also... but I am sure we are not comptible is game setup preferneces.
14.12.2008 19:02:55 Infinitus (#) i hope this is only temporary misunderstood battlegroun 2m, rest we can negociate
14.12.2008 19:18:18 (#) Jinxer (#) does 2m template come in HUGE version?
14.12.2008 19:18:50 Infinitus it's for large maps with no under
but with 2 player on map its big enaf, i mean map is created for 2 players, but on map are many towns
14.12.2008 19:19:55 (#) Jinxer (#) I will look at it... but no promises
17.12.2008 19:26:26 (#) Jinxer (#) you have 18 games on Genesis.. why do you refuse to play it? Instead of us both sitting here doing nothing.. lets play that map.. and then I will have time to practice 2m... and next game we play 2m
17.12.2008 19:41:43 (#) Jinxer (#) so what did you think of my deal?
17.12.2008 19:41:58 Infinitus let my think a bit
17.12.2008 19:42:49 Infinitus how about to start with 2m and continue on Genesis ?
17.12.2008 19:43:42 (#) Jinxer (#) the problem is.. I am not familiar at all with 2m... you are. Genesis we Both know.. so its fair and balanced. And we are currently the top 2 ranked players.. would be a nice game.
17.12.2008 19:44:50 Infinitus so if Genesis, I Ossir you Dwarf ?
17.12.2008 19:45:09 Infinitus i affraid dwarfs
17.12.2008 19:45:22 (#) Jinxer (#) no... we go all random and can ban some towns from random draw if you hate them
17.12.2008 19:47:11 Infinitus i dont like random cos i dont play even now all towns, and dont like go random On genesis i can be Sylvan, Academy or Haven
17.12.2008 19:47:40 Infinitus you see we have one more problem
17.12.2008 19:47:54 Infinitus faction/hero problem
17.12.2008 19:49:30 (#) Jinxer (#) well might take some reloads to get it.. but we can random generate until you get one of them towns.. and I hate orcs inferno dungeon... so we generate until you get one of them 3 and I also have one of the other 4 towns.. then we can play.. I just dont wanna pre pick before.. and random heroes is a must.. you claim you dont always have to play power heroes.. heres your chance to prove your self
17.12.2008 19:51:20 Infinitus i don't like random faction, hero in any form ... I like to choose faction/hero ... For example i can be Dougal Haven
17.12.2008 19:51:26 Infinitus or Sylvan Ossir
17.12.2008 19:53:22 (#) Jinxer (#) lol.. ofcourse as I always say on message board... you ONLY are able to be successful with POWER heroes. So please dont deny it on board when I say it.. Cause you just proved it. You still need training wheels. its funny! LMAO OK... I go take a nap.. good luck...seems we will never play... since I will never let you where your training wheels in our games hihi
17.12.2008 19:54:38 Infinitus i dont understand your point of view. In WC3 all pro players start with blade master as main hero so ?
17.12.2008 19:54:55 Infinitus what this mean ? they are no more pro ?
17.12.2008 19:55:17 Infinitus night elf always go demon hunter
17.12.2008 19:55:52 (#) Jinxer (#) Not really... if they were truely skilled.. they could win without having the BEST hero..
17.12.2008 19:56:56 Infinitus k, we play another cos i no random player
17.12.2008 19:58:08 (#) Jinxer (#) I doubt we ever play mate.. as I said.. I wont ever let you pick always Ossir Dougal Havez Ingvar etc etc.. No hard feelings.. I will just remove you from my msn.. so I dont bother you any more.. Take care.
17.12.2008 19:58:19 Infinitus np
17.12.2008 19:58:31 Infinitus remove me please
17.12.2008 19:58:47 (#) Jinxer (#) ok doing it now.
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 19, 2008 10:01 AM |
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I have always believed to be called great you should be able to play any hero/town against any hero/town. That is why I do not consider myself a great player. I am decent with Necro or Sylvan. I am much better with Stronghold, and can be a difficult person to beat with them. Even without Haggash . But when it comes to the other towns I have problems, serious problems. So I for one always like the option to at least pick the town, and prefer to pick the hero. However, I have no problem going full random, it just won't be much fun for the other person most of the time as I am not much of a challenge that way.
Each person has to decide how they want to play, and play people who agree. Simple as that, people will never agree to everything.
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Message received.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 10:18 AM |
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Random player it's not automatic good player. It's just a way to play a game. And for many games random faction style have really low usage on pro level. In Warcraft 3 all pro players play only one faction, yes they are masters with all faction, but they are specialized in one faction. Random players simple can't compete on pro level. Same situation is for Heroes 5, and i want to prove that !
Yesterday i started game on random map 2m vs TOH baron, ex lord last season, in couple of turn he refused to continue - i have no mana, creeps to strong ! I was just shocked, this is skill, this is pro ?
People just forget how to creep on regular map. On map like Genesis they get from start buildup town, tons of gold, experience for free. Sorry but in this condition any noob can be pro ....
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 10:29 AM |
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Every one have his view for fun and stufs. For me real game is only when both give his max and best. Its mean both can/need to choice his race/hero and lets better player won.
When i start play in ToH all my games i tell oponent i want to choice race and hero. For me its was most fun for play but many ppl who cant ever play say "its lame learn other races". So i was choice to defend my view for fun game or accept play all random with "great plyer". I choice second because its most easy. First most ppl who play all random dont know any race good and they are "free points for me". Second when some one talk so much its best to accept his rules and give him leason. So i did it.
But alot new ppl come and ppl in ToH. They are different. I dont see why need "kill them" with accept stupid reqest. Every is free to choice his race/hero and if you are good can beat him.
About this convo. I think Jinxer is over react. Realy cant understand how its end with remove from msn list Infinitus. Here not personal offences just different view for game rules. What i dont like in Jinxer is: he is "sad man". All time in forum he is cry. Why he cant just play and get fun from games?
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 19, 2008 10:38 AM |
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While not everybody who plays full random is good, the ones that can maintain a high victory rate with full random has higher regard in my eyes. Anybody (but me since I forget way too easy) can play the same map with the same hero/town a million times and get to know all the short cuts and such. As I said, I am all for picking town and hero however.
Honestly though, which is more impressive? Somebody defeating a good Acedemy player who has Jhora with Haven and the hero which gives bonus gold from peasents (can't remember name )who they have never played with, or winning with a town/hero they know inside and out?
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Message received.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 10:42 AM |
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Its simple who "pro n00bs" want all random. They dont know any race well. They think all random give them better chance because oponent can get "bad luck". So in real all end again for game points/won.
Cheap....and sure not effective way for play.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 10:45 AM |
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It's impressive, and i have nothing against random players. I talk about the right to choose hero/faction. If someone can beat me with random faction, fine, even better. But please don't force players to go random faction ... This end up with some players leaving TOH, going play on UBI server ...
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted December 19, 2008 11:28 AM |
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On a sidenote, I like Elit more and more... His last interventions were wiser than the usual , and he seems to have learnt some english also
Great going Elit, hope you start playing Arena so we can smack each other some time.
And on the topic, the problems are:
- ToH point system : awarding 30 points for win, 20 points for loss, and difference in rating... that makes strong players avoid each other and gather points from worse players. There could be a situation, where two players start playing 200 games against each other, each winning 100 and both reach 2000 points ... and become emperors, without too much heroes skill
Obvious solution: 20/20 points for win/loss + difference in rating.
- Playing your best faction/hero, against opponents best faction/hero, is very interesting way to test who is better, but the problem occurs when both players like same faction and same hero...
A solution would be having a Ossir and Ossiress system(female counterpart of Ossir), with same skills and abilities, for all heroes.
Also mirror games suffer from the random ATB problem... which might decide the game
- Playing full random , is an indication of understanding the game better, and a player who has very good win ratio in this system is good, but there are some guys who play their race better, and maybe you should let them choose their race
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 12:04 PM |
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TOH has always been playing full random town/random heroes until clans came up.
And i think the highest ranked player if he is good enough, should have the guts to go for random town/heroes.
In this case, i don't see why infin rejected the game in genesis, i think most likely its related to the possibility of facing ingvar.
He is scary, but definitely beatable in genesis
If you wanna be the best, then prove yourself to be the best
It is very satisfying to defeat opponent with an inferior race for sure
If he is good enough, and the skill levels isn't too close, he should still win it.
Or just generate 3 random pairs and do 1 strikeout each.
Problem solved.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 19, 2008 12:13 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 12:15, 19 Dec 2008.
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And then infinitus says he picks other factions too, LIES!! Yes jinxer is overreacting but he is entitled to his beliefs just as infinitus is. But it's this rigid mindset that destroys all the fun and why jinxer was pissed, he even compromised and allowed banning the factions of your choice. To be honest I still consider it lame when a player with almost 200 games under his belt refuses to try something new - Just watching your opponents' moves you should have learnt them all by now 
About elit's comment I always thought the opposite. It's noobs that are afraid of random since they only know 1-2 factions decently and almost nothing on the rest.
Edit: Btw why did I instantly guess who wrote the thread on seeing the title? Guess the right answer and you win a hero cookie!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted December 19, 2008 12:36 PM |
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If someone thinks he is a good player, he should be able to play any hero / any town.
This discussion reminds of the so called "polish style" in H3 tournaments. Most of the polish players only wanted to play BALANCE template, M size, Rampart...and Ivor. This combo is very hard to beat, stronghold and hack/gurni may be able to, but need luck too.
If you got a driving licence, you should be able to drive a VW Golf and a Mercedes aswell..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 19, 2008 12:37 PM |
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The situation reminds me of the Eddie abusers in tekken lol 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted December 19, 2008 12:59 PM |
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random or hero of a choice? it's a matter of personal taste. i for one, will never play 2 games in a row with same race, not to mention same hero, i consider it boring and i always want to try a new combination and this way i feel like i reset the previous game.
Also, i always ask the opponent, to make his choice town/hero if he wants that because sometimes you are in the mood for magic, sometimes you want melee, sometimes you want to experiment something with a particular town, so , in order to have fun choose what you like, this won't affect me at all, at least in negative way. For me any game it's a source of fun, no one is pointing a gun to my head forcing to win, else... game reserves a lot of surprises and never know if you can succeed with a less expected to win race.
About jinxer-infinitus conversation, i fully understandable that they didn't come to an agreement because of some factor:
-lack of maps options - 1 random with new template for one and 1 map designed mostly for good races, so from the beginning the possible game setup is shrink a lot
- the list of races to be chosen, for both, is very short, actually for infinitus is not a list him is the only one who cannot surprise me with town/hero at all . but i don't blame him, it's his call. some can eat same soup an entire life, hot or cold depends if is RMG or custom
- ranking/points in toh reduces the flexibility
About pro and pro-noob and noob considerations it's all very relative, could call pro ATB for instance if some stacks attacks twice before enemy even move his first creature or hero. who can be called to be proer than pro when both do same things in about same time, same casualties but all the game hangs on some artifacts or key perks? Points in toh can give a vague idea about who's better but it surely cannot state this for sure.
for me, 100 points won't compensate a game where the opponent suicides and game ends before its limit, cause i feel like i wasted those hours. and i don't have kids for friends to brag with my record around
to conclude, i'm not against people to choose what they like, it's only me that i'm not a fan of repeating myself
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 01:01 PM |
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OMG, all random kingdom vs me
Ok, here is example why i like to choose hero...
Map Key to Victory, i Necro, opponent Vitorio with balista, or any other hero going to take balista. To counter triple balista+flaming arrow i want to go destructive+cold death (instant death to balista) with circle of winter spell even more. But here is the problem, were to get ice spells ? NP, on this map are present Water Elemental guard. All i have to do is to take enlightenment+eagle eye and gg Hmm, nice strategy but not 100% probability to get enlightenment+eagle eye in time. Solution ? I will take as main hero Zoltan, he already have from start enlightenment+eagle eye. So, going Necro on Key to Victory, why should i go random hero, then i want certain tactic vs certain hero ? Sorry, not understand ...
I not rigid (or maybe i am ), TOH veterans become old and rigid
To Towerlord - if players like same faction, same hero, i take another faction, hero. In case with Nerevar (he like Ossir ), i take Haven, or Orcs.
Legend that tell us random player are better compared to one faction specialist is totally false. Example Warcraft3, thousands of players of all kind, random and not. No competition win by random players, all top players are masters of one faction. Examples - Moon (night elf), Grooby (orc), Fly (orc), Tod (human) etc ... Yes random players are funny, nice replays, innovation etc ... Still they are loosers Heroes 5 is complex game, situation is the same.
And again, noob or not, bad or good, i have the right to choose my faction/hero. This is the right given my by game interface
Nice position Teacher, thanks
____________
Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 01:04 PM |
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Quote:
If someone thinks he is a good player, he should be able to play any hero / any town.
This discussion reminds of the so called "polish style" in H3 tournaments. Most of the polish players only wanted to play BALANCE template, M size, Rampart...and Ivor. This combo is very hard to beat, stronghold and hack/gurni may be able to, but need luck too.
If you got a driving licence, you should be able to drive a VW Golf and a Mercedes aswell..
BALANCED is crap temple. Noting balanced here. You give good example for rampart+Ivor. I dont like how ppl play h3 now. Its not close to real old game. So much rules and so much "bad" temples where you have alot gold.
If you want real hardcore h3 games rules are no DD/Fly/Diplo/2min limit/200%/no start log hero. and you are going random temple. So when you choice one race can be good for temple A but not so for temple B.
About H5. Its simple. If you want to play all random do it...but dont force your oponent to be all random to if he dont want.
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 01:35 PM |
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I don't agree about about the random player can't play a race well.
Every player although playing random also have a specific race they tend to play more.
But when both players can't agree on something, going random is the best solution.
Example, when i play elit, he hates to see me play sylvan, and i hate to see him to play academy, so we ended up playing random most of the time.
Its the same with jinxer's case, you don't wanna fight ingvar, and he doesn't like to fight ossir, so why can't go random ?
And i believe the worst random situation is when one person gets inferno, and gets suicide creeping in week 1, while the other gets a power creeper hero. Why can't it be a lesson to learn to play inferno ?
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 01:37 PM |
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"Yesterday i started game on random map 2m vs TOH baron, ex lord last season, in couple of turn he refused to continue - i have no mana, creeps to strong ! I was just shocked, this is skill, this is pro ?"
Well, this isn't really nice. First, of all, I didn't refused to continue, but, as I remember when you were persuading me to try your random template you said that if I don't like them we will play something else. And here is why I didn't like it:
I got 3 trade posts next to each other. (pretty imbalance don't you think - does it mean that some can get 3 artifact merchant instead, or some other good combination).
Secondly, after clearing wood and ore mines and crypt without losses, rising some skeletons I was left with following choices to battle:
1. 13 earth daughters and 25 warmongers (the easiest not considering no 5 - which would mean I would have to go back to flag mines and lose too much time)
2. lots of ancient treants
3. lots of arcanes and lots of high druids
4. lots of arcanes, pack of high druids, few savage treants
5. lots of minotaurs taskmasters (which were 3 or 4 turns away)
I had 75 skeleton archers, about 15 zombies (same amount left in town) and 1 ghost. For previous battle I got 1 lvl. So lvl 2 hero, with raise dead and 2 mana.
So, it was pretty obivious, that this template is pretty imbalance. On the other hand you taking all Haggash centaurs, plus those from hero and town building, results in approximately 55 centaurs. So I guess taking those guars with mere 55 centaurs is skill and pro. Yes?
Here's idea: try your map without Ossir, Havez or Haggash or their extra troop and see how skilful and pro you truly are. Or better yet try my setup with necro. Maybe you'll learn something. Show me how to beat those guards. Any of them (except no 5). C'mon master Infinitus. I am waiting for replay. I bet everybody here would like to see it.
ps. I hope you kept your saves separately after yours last nigh d/c. Cause I am REALLY looking forward to prove my skill and pros in our blind game from then. I mean it seems fair enough: blind is blind for both of us.
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 01:46 PM |
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Quote:
Legend that tell us random player are better compared to one faction specialist is totally false. Example Warcraft3, thousands of players of all kind, random and not. No competition win by random players, all top players are masters of one faction. Examples - Moon (night elf), Grooby (orc), Fly (orc), Tod (human) etc ... Yes random players are funny, nice replays, innovation etc ... Still they are loosers Heroes 5 is complex game, situation is the same.
And again, noob or not, bad or good, i have the right to choose my faction/hero. This is the right given my by game interface
In h5 specialization is not a guarantee for anything. In fact neither you pick hero/faction nor random setup alone will not make anybody a good player.
As I see it picking hero/faction is a good way to become a good average player fastly. If you play one faction, your general knowledge about the game is very low. For further improvement you need to play full random. The reason is simple, to win a CLOSE game, you need to know your opponent's options to defeat you.
But this argument above has nothing to do about the topic, whether you have a right to choose or not.
I think you have a right to pick. And, if I am your opponent, I have a right not to play with you. The thing is that your chosen one, Ossir, he is a half-god hero. I will not spend a hours to play, when by default I have 30% maximum to win. And, even I think to myself as a good player, I am not a wizard to keep the pace with a creeping machine. Furthermore its sure that sylvan became top faction in 3.0, now storm wind reduced their potential a bit, but generally they are more than cool.
So the answer is to your real question, who is better player in toh, my answer is: who wins most of the close matchups.
By picking a strong hero/faction for a game, chance of close matchups radically decrease, and its ultimate boring to play Ossir vs Deleb all the way.
(Not to mention the ubi-disaster, where mostly they chose hero/faction, when you are ready, oppnent changes to another guy, who is better againt me, now I change....etc )
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 01:48 PM |
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To Pera - Played many time with other heroes. With orcs without centaur bonus i won, replay is posted here on TOH. With Necro, i was Kaspar, np with creep, but i loose to Sylvan.
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I got 3 trade posts next to each other. (pretty imbalance don't you think - does it mean that some can get 3 artifact merchant instead, or some other good combination).
Nether seen 3 artifact mercant in one zone, trade post it's a bit other thing, don't you think ?
Yes i have save. What skill ? Tons of gold, tons of experience boosters, tons of resources, 30 min creep fights every turn.
To Kispagat - Imba talk, Kispagat version, you think 50% of heroes are imbalanced and solution is to go random hero. Going random mean increased luck factor. Increased luck factor - ohh, nice way to balance Heroes 5, now game have perfect balance, luck decide ho get Hagash and won the game. Nice tactic ... Of cos players must know 100% all factions. Still focus on one faction have a lot more benefit.
Quote:
(Not to mention the ubi-disaster, where mostly they chose hero/faction, when you are ready, oppnent changes to another guy, who is better againt me, now I change....etc )
Again imba talk, what hero is killer for another hero ? Replays please.
____________
Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted December 19, 2008 02:24 PM |
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Quote:
To Kispagat - Imba talk, Kispagat version, you think 50% of heroes are imbalanced and solution is to go random hero. Going random mean increased luck factor. Increased luck factor - ohh, nice way to balance Heroes 5, now game have perfect balance, luck decide ho get Hagash and won the game. Nice tactic ...
Quote:
(Not to mention the ubi-disaster, where mostly they chose hero/faction, when you are ready, oppnent changes to another guy, who is better againt me, now I change....etc )
Again imba talk, what hero is killer for another hero ? Replays please.
Please, I have never mentioned 50%. Without kkowing the map, my guess is that there are 4 superior heroes. Namely: Wyngaal, Haggash, Ossir, Ingwar.
But naturally map may add few or decrease the number.
So random gives better chance for close matchup in general.
Replays? Try necro against dungeon. Try dungeon against wizard. Try wizard against sylvan and so on. And we did not mentioned heroes, just factions. But we can play, name your hero and map, and I try to name the killer one. But please, forget the superior ones for a sec.
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