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| Thread: What is a religion and what is not. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TheDeath
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posted May 21, 2009 06:34 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 18:35, 21 May 2009.
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If you prefer, it is an anti-theist organisation. But it is founded around anti-theism (although anti-religion would be a more accurate term), not around atheism.
Mvass you are freaking joking me.
I perfectly understand what you mean, that you don't want to be put in the same camp as them, and it is understandable nobody put you there 
What I mean is that is the same basic analogy as the more extreme or fanatical religious leaders -- who may call themselves religion X. As long as you don't have a problem by not putting every single religion X believer into the same camp (it would be stupid), then why do different with atheism?
Like any religion, it has normal people like you, but also the more extreme fanatics (we even had one on this board, remember Wesley?).
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Corribus
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posted May 21, 2009 06:48 PM |
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@Death
If you define atheism as a religion, you are implying that every person in the world necessarily belongs to some religion, which is further to imply that religion is an innate human attribute. I don't accept that and challenge it as an indefensible position.
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TheDeath
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posted May 21, 2009 06:56 PM |
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No. "True" agnostics are usually the ones who don't have any
Further I didn't necessarily say it's a religion, but organization. In my opinion it's far more important (imagine the difference between an organized religion and a personal religion, and regarding which one do anti-theists have more 'arguments' against).
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Cepheus
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posted May 21, 2009 07:10 PM |
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So, hypothetically, a person born in a cave with no connection to the outside world and no belief in any religion, let alone that any exist, is still to be classed as a member of this organisation?
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TheDeath
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posted May 21, 2009 07:13 PM |
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What organization?
If he has no connection to the outside world, he has no connection to the word atheism. If he has no beliefs, then he simply has NO IDEA if a "higher being" exists or not. Which makes him an agnostic, not an atheist.
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Cepheus
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posted May 21, 2009 07:20 PM |
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What organization?
My apologies, misread, I thought you said "an organisation" above.
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If he has no beliefs, then he simply has NO IDEA if a "higher being" exists or not. Which makes him an agnostic, not an atheist.
No, that's not agnosticism, it's called implicit atheism. Agnosticism indicates more awareness of the situation. Actual rejection of religion is called explicit atheism.
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TheDeath
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posted May 21, 2009 07:28 PM |
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My apologies, misread, I thought you said "an organisation" above.
"Above" was a post about agnostics saying they are the only ones without an organization -- actually that isn't true, I'm more talking about state of mind rather than social attributes. Whatever.
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No, that's not agnosticism, it's called implicit atheism. Agnosticism indicates more awareness of the situation. Actual rejection of religion is called explicit atheism.
How can you say "I don't believe in God" or "There is no God" (atheism) when you don't even know what God is.
If someone comes at the caveman and says "God exists!", and the caveman has no idea what 'God' is (obviously), he would respond "No idea, what do you mean by 'God' and how did you come to such a conclusion?".
Then he offers explanations or whatever. Caveman replies "Well theoretically God could exist, by what you have said, although it is not certain, in fact [insert personal subjective chance] (i.e highly unlikely). That said, being fair, I simply have no idea about it."
Caveman B: "No dumbass, I've talked to God, He exists!"
Caveman C: "Wrong. God doesn't exist, I haven't seen any fact that would make it almost 100% undoubtely certain".
Caveman B: "Yes, I've talked to him you idiot."
Caveman C: "Shut the **** up moron, you're delusional."
*B and C start fighting*
Caveman A: "Why should I bother? I have no idea about it anyway."
*walks away*
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Cepheus
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posted May 21, 2009 07:35 PM |
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How can you say "I don't believe in God" or "There is no God" (atheism explicit atheism) when you don't even know what God is.
You can't. There's a term for this situation; it is a form of atheism, not agnosticism. Atheism encompasses more than saying "you believe in God, I don't".
I don't argue about the caveman scenario, just the terminology.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 21, 2009 09:10 PM |
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Isn't this a typical useless Death-case?
I mean, THERE ARE NO CAVEMEN. There may have been cavemen, but we have no idea what they may have thought.
Even cavemen have not been born in a void.
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Corribus
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posted May 21, 2009 09:14 PM |
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Further I didn't necessarily say it's a religion, but organization. In my opinion it's far more important (imagine the difference between an organized religion and a personal religion, and regarding which one do anti-theists have more 'arguments' against).
Everyone believes something. I don't see what the distinguishing characteristic is that makes "I believe there is no god" a religion and "I believe there is no evidence either way" not one.
I don't consider my beliefs to be part of a religion, because I don't even really think about them. They're not a part of my life. They doesn't influence my morals. There are no rites or rituals surrounding them. I only respond when someone asks me what I believe. For me, believing that there is no god is no more a religion than believing that mushrooms are disgusting.
I don't think belief is the criterion that distinguishes what is and what isn't a religion.
Moreover, categorizing atheism as a religion is about as logical as categorizing "not a banana" as a fruit.
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baklava
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posted May 21, 2009 09:34 PM |
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Atheism isn't a religion, but it includes as much faith as one. I think that's the initial idea behind what Death's trying to say.
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Corribus
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posted May 21, 2009 09:39 PM |
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That's at least a defensible position; however, I do not believe the "degree of faith" required for atheism is equal to that of, say, Christianity (assuming you could even define such a parameter). I don't think it requires much effort to not believe in something for which there is no empirical evidence.
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mvassilev
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posted May 21, 2009 10:35 PM |
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Death:
Quote:
What I mean is that is the same basic analogy as the more extreme or fanatical religious leaders -- who may call themselves religion X. As long as you don't have a problem by not putting every single religion X believer into the same camp (it would be stupid), then why do different with atheism?
But the more extremist religious people are the ones that are adhering more closely to the teachings of the religion. Atheism doesn't have any teachings - these anti-theists aren't any more or less of atheists than I am. These people are atheists, but their organisation is based around anti-theism, not atheism.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 21, 2009 10:45 PM |
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I don't think it requires much effort to not believe in something for which there is no empirical evidence.
Trouble is, it requires not much effort to believe in something must be responsible for all the empirical evidence for something.
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TheDeath
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posted May 22, 2009 12:44 AM |
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But the more extremist religious people are the ones that are adhering more closely to the teachings of the religion.
There are a whole lot of problems with this statement. First of all, the simpler one, the part about "more closely" is really debatable, depending on religion in question. Secondly, since we were talking about organizations (and religious organizations for that matter -- i.e not personal religions), then it makes little sense to talk about "teachings" because it only complicates the matter.
Fact is that both adhere to a set of 'rules', which in religion are called 'teachings', as obviously any organization must or it wouldn't be an organization -- i.e you wouldn't have an anti-terrorism organization allowing terrorism would you? Does that mean the anti-terrorism organizations have these anti-terrorism guidelines as 'teachings'? If so similar can be said for atheism.
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Corribus
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posted May 22, 2009 01:21 AM |
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That's not a particularly good analogy, Death. Anti-terrorism is not the absence of terrorism. Your argument doesn't really apply.
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TheDeath
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posted May 22, 2009 02:12 AM |
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It was just an example. It has really nothing to do with being "anti" something.
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mvassilev
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posted May 22, 2009 02:17 AM |
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First of all, the simpler one, the part about "more closely" is really debatable, depending on religion in question.
You have to admit that extremist organisations tend to not compromise their beliefs - which means they are more fundamentalist.
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Does that mean the anti-terrorism organizations have these anti-terrorism guidelines as 'teachings'? If so similar can be said for atheism.
It's different, because it's not an atheist organisation - it's an anti-theist one. Atheism is nothing. You can't have an organisation centred around nothing. In this case, "teachings" refer to religious guidelines/advice/philosophy/whatever you want to call it. Atheism has no such teachings. But anti-theism has anti-religious guidelines (but they aren't teachings).
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TheDeath
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posted May 22, 2009 02:20 AM |
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It's different, because it's not an atheist organisation - it's an anti-theist one. Atheism is nothing. You can't have an organisation centred around nothing. In this case, "teachings" refer to religious guidelines/advice/philosophy/whatever you want to call it. Atheism has no such teachings. But anti-theism has anti-religious guidelines (but they aren't teachings).
So these signs are based around nothing?
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Elodin
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posted May 22, 2009 03:22 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 03:24, 22 May 2009.
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If you prefer, it is an anti-theist organisation. But it is founded around anti-theism (although anti-religion would be a more accurate term), not around atheism.
So you are saying even though they don't believe in God, the sacred, spiritual, ect that they are not atheists? What is your definitiion of an atheism?
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This is another highpoint in absurdity.
In your opnion. I think it is absurb to think you can ignore what God says and obey the state instead. And the Bible backs up my belief, not yours. And this was being discussed about Christian baptism/communion.
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How stupid this god would be you always talk about.
No. How stupid is the state that thinks it has the right to tell people when they are allowed to be baptism and to partake of communion. The state can't put the rules of its beaurocrats in the place of God's requirements.
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Not so. No matter how much real thing may be into all of those rituals, they are not enough to turn people. Some priests are doing horrible things, even though they do the rituals each day.
I always thought BELIEF would be a necessary prerequisite.
Go back and read my posts. I quoted about three sets of verses that said belief is necessary for baptism or communion to have any validity. You may remember that I said that is why an infant baptism is not a Biblical baptism. Baptism or communion wthout faith is only an empty ritual. With faith it imparts a spiritual blessing.
A child should not be forced to be baptised or to take communion but neither should he be forbidden if he has expressed faith in Christ.
It is the ultimate in delusion of garndeur for the state to think it can forbid a person who wants to be baptised or to take communion from doing so.
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Some priests are doing horrible things, even though they do the rituals each day.
I already discussed this numerous times. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is. Jesus said there would be wolves in sheep clothing who would seek to prey on the flock.
While a Christian will not be perfect if a person is living in sin he is not a Christian according to the Bible. A Christian is one who submits himself to the gospel of Christ and who remains in obedience to Christ, repenting when he sins. To repent is not only to confess one's sins but to turn from them.
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You don't go around and force 5-year olds to smoke sigarets do you? Well atleast not you, but there are groups doing someting similar, religious or not.
It is ludicrous to compare a child wanting to be baptized or to take communion with a child wanting to smoke.
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But the more extremist religious people are the ones that are adhering more closely to the teachings of the religion.
So if you actually practice the teachings of your religion you are an extemist?
I would say that a person who does not attempt to follow the teachings of his religion is a hipocrit or at least an immature believer.
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