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| Thread: What Do You Really Know About The Bible? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted May 26, 2009 12:10 PM |
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For instance in one of my grandmothers bibles (which went to a great uncle of mine) there was mention of Saucers (no not chariots of fire but "Saucer shaped objects in the sky") and Dinosaurs. While I seriously doubt those were in the original text, it just goes to show that things can be added or taken away by MAN.
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Elodin
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posted May 26, 2009 02:41 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:49, 26 May 2009.
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Before Moses, God's name was Elohim.
Different names of God emphasize different things. There were not two different gods or a name change. Both names were still used after the Mosaic law as the below verses indicates. These are just a couple of many such verses.
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Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD [Jehovah] your God [Elohim] which I command you.
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Exo 34:23 Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord [Adon] GOD [Jehhovah], the God [Elohim] of Israel.
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He believed in Freedom. Lucifer, one of God's angriest angels, believed in Law and Order. Unfortunately, they got into a fight about it.
I don't know where you are getting your information but is is not from the Bible. You cliamed you would do an analysis of the Old Testament but have referenced no verses and your claims contradict the Bible.
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Here's the tricky part: Lucifer supposedly gave Eve the power of knowledge, which traded their innocence for Free Will.
Actually Satan only claimed the fruit would make her as wise as God. Judging the human condition I think it is obvious humans have not become as wise as God. Satan is a deceiver.
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Then there was some kind of war in heaven, and somebody got kicked out. We're told it was Lucifer, but really we don't have much information about this. It is unclear whether this happens before or after Abraham's revelations.
Actually it is clear that Satan got kicked out before Adam and Eve fell into sin. Satan tempted them to disobey God and called God a liar in the garden of Eden.
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Now the next time God appears, he is speaking to Moses and he has a new name: Yahweh (or Jehovah, depending on how you translate).
Sorry, but God is mentioned many times between the fall and the Law of Moses. And he is even refered to as Jehovah before thE Law of Moses.
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Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD [Jehovah.]
And as I showed near the top of the post the names Elohim and Jehovah were often used in the same sentence refering to the one God.
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He also has a new personality. He gives Moses the Ten Commandments. Now why would he do that? That's acting for Lucifer's side of the argument: Law and Order. That's the second clue. In addition, Yahweh begins acting violently on a regular basis, which does not at all seem like Elohim.
God is not violent. God judged before the Law of Moses. Ever hear of Sodom? Also, there is nothing recorded in the Bible about a supposed disagreement about freedom and law between God and Lucifer.
I repeat, whatever your source is it is not the Old Testaent although you claim that is what you are analyzing.
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God's enemy has a new name too: Satan.
Satan mean advasary.
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This name was actually given to him by a catholic pope.
Sorry but the name Satan was in the Bible long befor Catholicism came along. It is used a number of times in the Old Testament which was around long before the Catholics were.
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If you do a strict literary analysis of these three clues, then it is not hard to come to the conclusion that we are being lied to about the outcome of the "war in heaven", in which God and Lucifer fight over the issue of Free Will vs Law and Order.
Actually, pretty much nothing you have said has any basis in the Bible.
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Suppose for a moment that the Fall from Grace actually happened the other way around: Elohim gives Eve the power of Knowledge and Lucifer wins the war. Now, suddenly, everything makes sense. Lucifer wrote the Ten Commandments? That's definitely something he would do. Elohim encourages people to break Lucifer's rule? That's within his personality. In my opinion this is the story that we should be using.
Since nothing you have said has been out of the Bible (and the claims are just outright false) even though you claimed to be doing an analysis of the Old Testament I can only conclude that you are just Christian bashing.
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I don't follow the teachings of Christ, but If I did, I would be forced to call myself a "Satan-worshiping Christian". This is not a contradiction. It is possible to follow the teachings of Christ without acknowledging Yahweh as the rightful ruler of the universe
No. Jesus said that he is Jehovah (Yahweh/I AM.) "He" is not in the Greek text.
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Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
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Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
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Actually its not. 99% can be the words that got no meaning, while the 1% remaining can be what is the actuall defining factor.
Actually that is not what the varient readings are. The varient readings are things like this:
http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Integ/B-0701.htm
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She trimmed his gray beard.
She trimed his gray beard.
She trimmed his gray beard.
She trim med his gray beard.
Trimmed she his grey beard.
She trimmed his gray beard.
His grey beerd she trimmd.
She trimmed his gray beard.
His grey beerd she trimmd.
Shet rimmed his gray beard.
She trimmed his gray beard.
She trimmed hes gray beard.
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On the average, Old Testament documents yield about one variation per page of text; New Testament manuscripts yield only a tenth of one percent variance. In other words, 99.9% of those manuscripts are in perfect agreement.
Though an occasional scribe altered a text to be copied, the resulting deviant copy constitutes only an infrequent departure from the plethora of copies available for corroborating comparison. Even as later copyists unknowingly passed on certain aberrations, appeals to still earlier or more reliable documents still preserve the original message.
Thanks to textual criticism and on-going archaeological discoveries, even as time passes far beyond the date of the original writings, we may be confident that the Bible of today is a fully trustworthy duplication of the original autographs.
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Like cencoring out the gospel of Maria Magdalena, removing of Lillith, what words about Judas you wanted. It happend. Its cannot be denied.
Sorry but the "gospels" of Mary Magdalene and Juda have been proven to be fakes. They were gnostic gospels written long after Judas and Mary died.
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For instance in one of my grandmothers bibles (which went to a great uncle of mine) there was mention of Saucers (no not chariots of fire but "Saucer shaped objects in the sky") and Dinosaurs. While I seriously doubt those were in the original text, it just goes to show that things can be added or taken away by MAN.
I don't know what kind of Bible you Grandmother was using but it was not a good translation of the Bible. There are no manuscripts that refer to flying saucers and I am not familiar with any translation that uses the word saucer. Maybe someone wrote their own version of the Bible like some pepole on this forum seem to do.
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del_diablo
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posted May 26, 2009 02:49 PM |
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They were gnostic gospels written long after Judas and Mary died.
Does that not apply to most of the new testmant anyway? And none of them is proven fake last time i checked.
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angelito
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posted May 26, 2009 03:32 PM |
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How about we don't turn this thread again into a believer - nonbeliever discussion, but just talk about this quiz and those given answers? And what we think about the correct answers?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Lexxan
Honorable
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Unimpressed by your logic
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posted May 26, 2009 06:04 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 19:42, 26 May 2009.
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You are entitled to your belief but the Bible does not bear witness to your claims.
Of course. Books can't actively do anything.
About the answers: Do we have to conclude that the Hebrew God is very Cruel and Evil? Or that Jesus was Over-optimistic?.
Imo it matters little. Like I said, things we cannot possibly explain or know, become what people make of them. The same counts for the so-called "Paranormal" and "Almighty". God is cruel if you see Him as cruel and act as if He were Cruel. God is good if you see Him as Good, etc...
Whoever Jesus Christ were, A Good-natured Cleric, A optimistic Believer, Son of God or a Pious Jew, He is, and will always remain, the man who has had the largest impact on mankind. Without Him, the World would have been a completely different place, if not more cruel and harsh. We will never know who he really was, like we will never know What God actually is... He too is what we make or have made of Him. Whether that's the truth or not, we, again, might never know, but one thing is certain: History has been kind to the Messiah.
The whole theological debate only leads to the conclusion that mankind (for the biggest part) controlls it's own destiny and beliefs. Nature is the only force and factor we cannot controll fully. Otherwise, our Future and Destiny is fully in our hands, as our Past used to be, a long time ago.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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angelito
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posted May 26, 2009 08:42 PM |
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So let me clear one thing which I haven't realised as of yet:
All questions of that quiz refer to the OLD TESTAMENT?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted May 26, 2009 10:10 PM |
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Quote:
So let me clear one thing which I haven't realised as of yet:
All questions of that quiz refer to the OLD TESTAMENT?
Quite some are reffering to the NEW one too, especialy on the subject on the people who ended up being made the foundation for the church.
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Lexxan
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Unimpressed by your logic
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posted May 26, 2009 10:22 PM |
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Quote:
So let me clear one thing which I haven't realised as of yet:
All questions of that quiz refer to the OLD TESTAMENT?
No..., but Most do.
Old Testemony: Ancient Jewish Lore, everything before Christ
New Testemony: Jesus Christ + Psalms+ Apostle's Letters.
Just in case you didn't know this, which I highly doubt.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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angelito
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posted May 26, 2009 10:45 PM |
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Quote:
Old Testemony: Ancient Jewish Lore, everything before Christ
New Testemony: Jesus Christ + Psalms+ Apostle's Letters.
Just in case you didn't know this, which I highly doubt.
This I know, yes.
But I do not know where to put "Deuteronomy" or "Leviticus", just to take those 2 from the example I wrote in my first post. I even do not know if those are books, letters or even names....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted May 26, 2009 10:52 PM |
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Edited by Totoro at 22:53, 26 May 2009.
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How should parents treat a stubborn and rebellious son?
He should be stoned to death. --This cruelly excessive Mosaic law was actually enforced at one time by the Massachusetts colony and has been used to justify child abuse and murder.
"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them; Then shall his father and mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of the city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
Did Jesus say this? Isn't it the fault of the parents who brought him up? It makes sense in the way that then other idiot sons will come to their senses, but wouldn't it be simply a sacrifice of this boy for the benefit of the society?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted May 26, 2009 11:14 PM |
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But I do not know where to put "Deuteronomy" or "Leviticus", just to take those 2 from the example I wrote in my first post.
Those are from the Old Testament. I even found those quotes in my Tanakh book.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted May 26, 2009 11:17 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 23:20, 26 May 2009.
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Psalms, Deuteronomy, and Leviticus are all Old Testament books. Psalms and Proverbs are sometimes included in a copy of a book with the New Testament just because they are favorite books of some but they are Old Testament books.
Here is a list of what books go in what testaments.
http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?ver=kjv
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Lexxan
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Unimpressed by your logic
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posted May 26, 2009 11:29 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
How should parents treat a stubborn and rebellious son?
He should be stoned to death. --This cruelly excessive Mosaic law was actually enforced at one time by the Massachusetts colony and has been used to justify child abuse and murder.
"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them; Then shall his father and mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of the city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
Did Jesus say this? Isn't it the fault of the parents who brought him up? It makes sense in the way that then other idiot sons will come to their senses, but wouldn't it be simply a sacrifice of this boy for the benefit of the society?
No. This is the Old Testemony. Read what I wrote about the Old One in pervious posts, and you probably won't need this post (or/and the above two) to know this
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Shadowcaster
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Shaded Scribe
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posted May 27, 2009 06:51 AM |
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21. Probably would have scored higher if I'd have looked at what the acronym in the domain stood for.
All I will say is what I believe about the context of much of the admittedly atrocious laws outlined in this quiz. I won't have proof because it is simply my perception of how one possible explanation could be true, based on a belief with which you may or may not agree. I only say this because I don't wish to become entangled in debate of any kind should one continue to arise. Anyway, on to the meat.
When the Deuteronomic covenant was first conceived, God's people were a wandering rabble of slaves and descendants of slaves looking for a land in which they could settle. Not the most stable of situations. Even for centuries after they did settle in Canaan the Israelites were subjected to battle after battle, as well as a few conquests of land promised to them. God's chosen people needed rules to live by or else they would falter, as evidenced by their hesitance to enter the Promised Land because they did not believe God could conquer the giants that lived there and the calf idol they created while Moses was receiving the very rules they were proven so desperately to need.
Granted, these rules are extreme by our standards, but they were undoubtedly less so back then. And the commandments God laid out for His people probably needed a tinge of extremity so that the people wouldn't waver and buckle given their unstable circumstances. It could even be argued that these extreme laws are what allowed the Jewish nation to persevere and thrive as it did, even given the various and numerous turmoils they faced over the centuries after its founding. By the time Jesus came around and established a new covenant, belief in Yahweh had become much more widespread and God's people lived lives of stability relative to those in the time of Moses.
It was an interesting quiz in many ways, though, I will admit.
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>_>
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Azagal
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posted May 27, 2009 07:51 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 07:59, 27 May 2009.
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May I ask what your intention was when you created this thread?
Look at this line
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I was very surprised about some answers, and maybe some of our "hardliners" can tell here if those answers given there are correct, and what their opion is about them.
So you created it so that everyone can see how "cruel" the bible really is and then have people who don't take the bible literaly defend it (you refer to them as hardliners)? Wouldn't you also say that the quiz isn't particularyly objective? There are two outcomes:
If you have no idea about text passages about the bible you'll end up with tons of quotes from the bible that are very cruel and babaric. If you do know the answer to the test you'll simply reply with cruel stuff etc. so in the end all the test tries to do is show you what a hooooooorrible book the bible (thus christianity) is. This is soooo small-minded. The test has nothing to do with actual christian teachings (or do you see anyone preaching to stone their children if they misbehave...?)
Like any religious book or any good book the bible isn't just text. So a test based on how much text knowledge one has over the bible is bound to be biased. But yeah never mind the "hardliner" lol.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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angelito
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posted May 27, 2009 08:51 AM |
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Sometimes it's quite hard to follow your thoghts Azagal...
I think my post describes pretty well what my intention was.
- A friend of mine sent me this link
- I took the test and "failed badly" (mostly because I did NOT chose the cruel answers of course)
- I do not know if this site is a serious one, and I also do not know if those answers are correct at all
- I know we have some "hardliners" refering to the bible here on HC
- So it is quite obvious to bring this quiz here and let those, who have much more knowledge about the bible (Elodin said he studied the bible for years) answer my questions.
- And if these answers are correct, I would like to hear what the people here who always talk about a loving God say to these whole stoning threats written in the bible.
- I am not a believer, therefor I didn't know the OT had close to nothing to do with God and Jesus (at least this is what I have read here in the given asnwers), while the NT is the important part
So what is your problem now Azagal?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Azagal
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Smooth Snake
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posted May 27, 2009 09:08 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 09:11, 27 May 2009.
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You already listed my problem:
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And if these answers are correct, I would like to hear what the people here who always talk about a loving God say to these whole stoning threats written in the bible.
That you take quotes from the bible (doesn't matter wether they're cruel or not but in this case they are) and think that they count for some sort of "proof" or that they make an valid argument. That's my whole problem.
I guess my problem goes even futher... You speak of "knowledge" if the bible and it's a bit naive (pardon me, I'll explain) of you to believe that you'd find answers from more "knowledgeable" people here.
Now if I may explain naive: it's naive to believe that Elodin can "answer your questions" because he isn't open minded. Why is that important? You of all people have seen all the countless debates where he quotes the bible, right? He knows enourmous ammounts of bible passages and knows where to find what and if I understand you correctly you label that as "knowledge", right?
But it isn't (which is my problem). All he does is utilize bible quotes to make points he want to make. Knowing the bible by heart isn't knowledge (atleast not the kind you need to answer those question of yours). But the point is that very much in the bible is up to interpretation.
I didn't believe you'd actually go looking for answer (and especially not turn to our hardliners for answers) since the bible isn't such a hard thing to understand (which is of course only my very personal opinion). When I saw this test I thought you simply wanted to go "Yeah you see that all Christians? That's the true face of your bible", since the test has nothing to do with real knowledge of the bible.
Seems like it wasn't your intention. So sorry if my initial answer came a little to heated.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 27, 2009 10:51 AM |
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In your defense that is clearly the quiz author's intention. Azzie's assumption might have been misdirected but it didn't come out of the blue.
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angelito
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posted May 27, 2009 12:47 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 12:48, 27 May 2009.
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Where did I say I am looking for answers ?
I said I want to know if the answers given in that quiz are correct.
That site could be a joke site making fun out of bible quotes, couldn't it? I am not able to judge it, because I do not have that much knowledge of the bible. But others do (like Elodin), and they can say: "Yes, those answers are real quotes from the bible!" or they can say: "Angelito, you've been fooled by a bunch full of ahteists who formed quotes out of nowhere!"
Of course I could have done these checks by myself. Looking for a bible and search all the texts they mentioned. But why spending so much time if it is much easier to ask people who know that?
And IF these answers are correct, I am (was) interested in an explanation, why God that often "asked" for stoning to death when he on the other always praises life and forbids murder.
I am still not completey sure, why so many passages in the OT (the most questions of that quiz seem to be related to it) are that cruel, but maybe someone can be a bit more precise in his explanation.
I've read something about OT is mostly ISRAEL laws. So is it more true to say: The OT was written by israelits with some kind of law-book included, but it was not filled by "God's words" like it mostly is when it comes to the NT.
Is that correct?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted May 27, 2009 01:02 PM |
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Well, I personally have never seen most of the things from that site in a bible. At one time I could quote just about every verse, but it honestly has been years. One thing you have to be aware of, however, is that there are several different bibles (some not even called that). My memory also has issues..so...
For instance the Torah which I believe is the Jewish Bible. They do not believe that Jesus is the son of man, but worship God.
Then there is the Mormon Bible. They believe John Smith (I believe) is the Masiah, not Jesus.
Then there are Jehova's (spelling?) witness, Catholic, Protestant, and the list goes on. Mostly the Bibles are ALMOST identical, with only the interpratation being different. Some do not believe in hell, etc.
While I am sure that somebody will say there is only ONE bible, I will respectfully disagree there. Which is why I say to follow the spirit of the word, and not any man or any groups 'understanding' of the bible.
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Message received.
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