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| Thread: What Do You Really Know About The Bible? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elodin
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posted August 11, 2009 01:27 PM |
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@Mystical
But truth is truth regardless of how many people believe it. 2+3=5 even if only one person in the whole world believes it. So substituting "X" for 2 changes nothing, only one solution is possibl for the variable "X."
@angelito
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Isn't that obvious?
Have you ever SEEN God? Have you ever SEEN the Holy Spirit? Have you ever SEEN eden? No? But religious people believe they "exist". So how can you make yourself a picture of something you have never seen? Exactly....IMAGINATION.
Actually God has at times manifested himself in physical form.  But he fills and transcends the universe so all you can see is a manifestation of God.
I am filled with the Spirit of God. I know he is real.
You can't "know" there is no God. You can't observe and measure everything in all the universe(s) at every instant in time nor can you see what lies outside the universe(s.) For an atheist to say "There is no God" he is claiming to be all-seeing and all-knowing, which is clearlly a delusional thing for a mere human being to say. Perhpas similar to halucinations from LSD? I'm not saying it is bad for atheists to live in their imaginary world but they should not get mad at me because I live in reality. 
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Azagal
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posted August 11, 2009 01:27 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 13:30, 11 Aug 2009.
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What's so wrong with that statement?
Ehm... you're kind of going in the wrong direction.
I don't take offence in the fact that you say we "imagine" things. The problem is here "and live in imaginations" I do think you understand the difference. The phrase "living in imagination" is what I took offence in. Clear now? You know living in in imagination grammatically equals saying that non-atheists are detached/not down to earth. I'm pretty sure you knew that...
Again: I don't see how one can not believe in a god without being detached/not down to earth from this world. Simply because you believe in a garden Eden, Jesus and whatnot doesn't mean you can't be a perfectly rational person. But if you so persistantly say otherwise then maybe you can explain to me how you are right and how all non-atheists "live in imagination".
About the LSD thing... I get what you are trying to say I just find it in bad taste to do so. The fact that you say "forget for a moment that it's a hardcore drug that seriously damages your psyche and health" doesn't really make it less bad taste... you're still comparing it to a really bad drug drug. Not the "drug" aspect of the drug I get that, but I do hope you do see how it's not the optimal metaphor for saying "it creates pictures in your mind"...
(while I also think that your jabs at religion "is something BAD (but of course everybody is free to interpret things the way it fits best...)" aren't the most serious thing in the world).
Apart from that you say "which aren't really there"... well for you they're not. Can you prove to me that they don't exist? No you can't. Of course I can't prove to you that they do exist. Afterall I just believe they do.
And interesting side question: do you know the "Höhlengleichnis" Doom spoke about? It really gets you thinking.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted August 11, 2009 01:40 PM |
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Exactly...YOU belong to HIM....so it is YOUR faith...and YOUR truth. I do NOT belong to him.
You did not create your computer, but still it is YOURS, right? So something doesn't have to be created by anyone specific to be called HIS....
Errrr...you are part of the creation of God. God created humanity. Yes, you belong to him.
No, I bought my computer. Therefore my computer belongs to me. Now if I had stolen the computer I am using I would not be using "my" computer.
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2+3=5, And Harry Potter is the reincarnation of Jesus, even if you disbelieve it So believing in Harry Potter is THE truth (or can you give evidence against that?)
That is quite easy. The author of the Harry Potter stories says it is a fictional work.
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Agnostics don't say "There is NO god", they say "I don't care". It seems very hard for you to understand, because it was mentioned pretty often nin this and in other threads.
Saying "I don't care" is even worse than saying "There is no God." The existence of God has quite a few temporal and eternal ramifications.
And some "agnostics" seem to argue rather pressingly that there is no God.
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Contradiction. "Spiritual" and "Reality" have as much in common as Kate Moss and Sumo Wrestling
So how do you call yourself an agnostic when you steadily make such statments steadfastly denying anything beyond the physical?
Man has very limited knowledge and limited ability to observe and measure the world around him. It is not unusual for what things that man "knows" is reality to be proven wrong. Truth is truth. Truth is not perception.
Man is more than a sack of random chemicals reacting in a random manner and there is more to the world than what your physical eyes can see.
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted August 11, 2009 01:49 PM |
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Just as we can't actually prove you're wrong, you can't prove you're right ... it's pathetic. Oh, and no need to feel sorry for the non-religious .. it's far more easy living a life without having to worry about some old book, and that if I sin I am gonna burn forever.
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Azagal
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posted August 11, 2009 02:38 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 14:54, 11 Aug 2009.
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yeah...because religious people constantly worry wether they live according to the bible... come on.
Being religious doesn't come with fixed character traits . Neither does being an atheist, of course. So why all these presumptions about everyone oO?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Salamandre
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posted August 11, 2009 02:47 PM |
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Just as we can't actually prove you're wrong, you can't prove you're right ... it's pathetic. Oh, and no need to feel sorry for the non-religious .. it's far more easy living a life without having to worry about some old book, and that if I sin I am gonna burn forever.
The science can invalidate 90% of the bible facts, while the bible can't invalidate even one scientifically proved fact. I am not saying the science is understanding all, and there are still unknown variables, and those variables are the catalysis of the believers...however, more we advance, less unknown variables remain.
All those threads are purely fictional: one believe in something not tangible and he feels the spirit of an entity inside him. Other people do not feel it. I guess it is a matter of education, one who was told since his early childhood that "God" exist and survey each of his actions is more addicted to develop this personal feeling.
Talibans have their own god, and we are not close to say it is healthy. Which "God" to choose from, Elodin's or talibans? How do we know which one is real, as both will answer in the same manner. And both are equally fanatic and lack tolerance. It was wisely avoided since last posts, but now the words were pronounced and atheist considered unhealthy and spiritually empty.
Now, pun intended, we all know a bit of history, and what was the church role in oppressing the truth and crudely punishments. Many brave and innocent people died only because they were not believers. Today they still die. I still can't see any history fact where "atheists" started a war on christians and slaughtered them because of their beliefs.
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Minion
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posted August 11, 2009 02:48 PM |
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This seems to be just provocation from one side to the other, and I see more clearly now why it is against the CoC. Not only is this "conversation" fruitless it is also a sore to read. 
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted August 11, 2009 04:51 PM |
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The science can invalidate 90% of the bible facts, while the bible can't invalidate even one scientifically proved fact.
No, you are "mistaken" in your claim. Science has not invalidated anything in the Bible, though some atheists love to claim their "mistaken" statement.
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All those threads are purely fictional: one believe in something not tangible and he feels the spirit of an entity inside him. Other people do not feel it. I guess it is a matter of education, one who was told since his early childhood that "God" exist and survey each of his actions is more addicted to develop this personal feeling.
Perhaps atheists are adicted to the idea that they are essentially god. Accountable to no one. They make their own Law of what is right and wrong. Any behavior can be justified. They "know" the truth and condemn every other belief when it is their own delusional belief that is false. They are adicted to their delusion and refuse to consider other possibilities as being true.
No, I am not deluded. I have received the Spirit of God. It is impossible for you to know that I have not and yet you make the claim that I am delusional and my beliefs fictional.
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And both are equally fanatic and lack tolerance.
Actually, the most fanatical group seems to be the "militant" atheists who claim they know the truth and condemn others for saying they know the truth.
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Now, pun intended, we all know a bit of history, and what was the church role in oppressing the truth and crudely punishments. Many brave and innocent people died only because they were not believers. Today they still die. I still can't see any history fact where "atheists" started a war on christians and slaughtered them because of their beliefs.
Actually, far, far, far more people have been murdered by atheists than by followers of all other religions combined. Atheist tyrants murdered over 250 million people in the past 100 years.
And no Christian has ever murdered anyone. There have only been pretenders who have.
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1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Anyone who claims Christianity commits or sanctions murder is quite simply either a liar or ignorant of the facts.
It seems you have never heard of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, ect. All atheists. All murderers of religiouos people for the simple fact that they were religious people.
I objected to atheists being allowed to call religious people drug addicts precisely because of what is happening now.
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Darkshadow
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Cerise Princess
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posted August 11, 2009 04:55 PM |
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Anyone who claims Christianity commits or sanctions murder is quite simply either a liar or ignorant of the facts.
Well, apparently history is an ignorant liar 
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Elodin
Promising
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posted August 11, 2009 04:59 PM |
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Anyone who claims Christianity commits or sanctions murder is quite simply either a liar or ignorant of the facts.
Well, apparently history is an ignorant liar
Sorry, but the Bible says who is a Christian and who is not, not you or anyone else.
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Darkshadow
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posted August 11, 2009 05:03 PM |
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Anyone who claims Christianity commits or sanctions murder is quite simply either a liar or ignorant of the facts.
Well, apparently history is an ignorant liar
Sorry, but the Bible says who is a Christian and who is not, not you or anyone else.
So no one in the middle ages was a christian?
Interesting...
Actually by that statement no one is a real christian
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Salamandre
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posted August 11, 2009 05:22 PM |
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This is inaccurate. Stalin killed millions of people not because they were religious, but because they did not want to follow HIS religion, the stalinism. He made no difference between believers or atheists, both were deported and killed, only for not submission, which brings me to something similar:
God orders israelites to destroy pagan temples:
Exodus 34:11 "...behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite. Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
God killed Jews at Taberah: During the 40 years of wandering through the desert, some Jews complained about their hard life. God heard the complaints, became angry, and destroyed some outlying parts of the camp, presumably killing the inhabitants:
Numbers 11:1 "And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp."
God sent a plague which killed 14,700 Jews: Following the mass murder of 254 leaders and their families, almost all of the Israelites complained about the terrible loss of life among these holy people. God was displeased and sent a plague which killed almost 15,000 Israelites:
Numbers 16:41-49 "...all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD...And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces. And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun...And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed. Now they that died in the plague were 14,700, beside them that died about the matter of Korah."
God orders genocide of the Midianites: God ordered that the Midianites be exterminated because of their religious beliefs and practices. The Israeli army kills all of the Midianite men, and took the women and children captive. Moses was angry that the army had taken the women captive instead of murdering them. He ordered all of the boys and any women who were not virgins to be killed in cold blood. Virgin girls, some 32,000, were allowed to live:
Numbers 31:7-41 "And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males...And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods...Moses was wroth with the officers of the host...And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?...Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
I am sorry, you will again tell that I extract quotes outside their context. Actually the context is controversial, and I assume we do not interpret it in the same way. Maybe this was Stalin's problem as well.
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angelito
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posted August 11, 2009 06:09 PM |
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@ Azagal
I would recommend to read posts of others properly before you start to reply and get picky.
I have NEVER said non religious people LIVE in imaginations, I said they LIKE to live....
That doesn't mean their whole life is an imagination. But as soon as it comes to God, Jesus, Eden and whatever is mentioned in the bible aswell, it has to be imagination. And for the matter of fact, religious people think quite often about the things I just mentioned, the imagination part isn't a small one.
If someone is an H3 addict, he isn't an addict in EVERYTHING he does.
So now again my question: What is wrong with the statement: "religious people like to live in imaginations"?
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Salamandre
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posted August 11, 2009 06:14 PM |
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Angelito, I have to disagree with your previous post: an HoMM3 addict is not healthy, but very unhealthy. Every addiction to a video game is a terrible thing, which destroys entirely social life. May god help and cure us!
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angelito
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posted August 11, 2009 06:18 PM |
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About the LSD thing... I get what you are trying to say I just find it in bad taste to do so. The fact that you say "forget for a moment that it's a hardcore drug that seriously damages your psyche and health" doesn't really make it less bad taste... you're still comparing it to a really bad drug drug. Not the "drug" aspect of the drug I get that, but I do hope you do see how it's not the optimal metaphor for saying "it creates pictures in your mind"...
If you, for a short moment, remember how many different kind of religions exist out there, how many "spiritual leaders" we already had (and still have), especially in the USA (Davidians anyone???), and they all believe in some kind of God, then you again try to tell me this isn't any similar to LSD effect what happens/happened there? Only if you claim Christianity is the one and only, others think the same about their religion. And believe me, they have SEEN their God the same way as you have..
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Apart from that you say "which aren't really there"... well for you they're not. Can you prove to me that they don't exist? No you can't.
Easy question: Imagine I am standing in front of you. We are both alone in a small room. Now I say: "Azagal, here right beside me on my left side, you can see my girlfriend naked on her knees"
How do you PROOVE she is NOT there?
I'm eagerly awaiting your answer on this
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
Promising
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posted August 11, 2009 08:03 PM |
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This is inaccurate. Stalin killed millions of people not because they were religious, but because they did not want to follow HIS religion, the stalinism. He made no difference between believers or atheists, both were deported and killed, only for not submission, which brings me to something similar:
I'm sorry but you need to do some research. The Lenin/Stalin and the Militant Atheist League were determined to destroy religion in the USSR. Churches were burned, the Bible was declared illegal, ect. They believed religion was a drug, much like bigotted opinions on this board have said and they were determined to eliminate religion from the USSR.
Atheism was made the state religion. So in that sense he did not want to destroy all religions, just all religions except for atheism.
Atheists love to point their finger at religion but atheism is responsible for most of the mass murders of history. And why not? Man is nothing but a sack of random chemichals, right? Of no more value than a pile of cow dung.
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I am sorry, you will again tell that I extract quotes outside their context. Actually the context is controversial, and I assume we do not interpret it in the same way. Maybe this was Stalin's problem as well.
Yes, I will. Some athiests seemingly love to do that. I already addressed that very situation in a discussion with JJ. I'll sum it up rather than go through all the scripture again.
Basicaly the Midianites and Moabites conspired together. They hired a pagan diviner to curse Israel but he realized he could not. He then advised them to try to lead Israel into sin and they carried out that plan. God judged them and the Jews who sinned. So what?
Yes, the women who participated in luring the Jews into the sexual orgy to their gods were judged. So? The women who did not participate were not judged.
You don't like it that you are responsible to God? Tough. Hide in your cloak of atheism and see if your imagination can escape accountability.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted August 11, 2009 08:14 PM |
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Elodin, Wolfsburg already answered to this, so I will just quote, as I have nothing to add...or remove:
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You can further especulate how ignorant I am on the bible's content, but Im certainly not engaging in discussion around it with you. If you claim the bible to be the living word of god you will not allow a single flaw to be pointed out of it. You will defend the most awful pieces of text with teeth and nails against any counter argument. YOU HAVE TO. Otherwise, a single flaw will make the whole God's word theory colapse. I mean you have found yourself justification for the most spitable acts known to mankind, what other possible argument would be strong enough evidence to push you a single step back?
Answer: Nothing. If god would have sent Joshua on a raping fever and have all of the 12 year olds under Ai's reingn fckd, you would endorse it with some "contextualized" excuse. You see this is a pointless discussion thats only going to hurt you?
Chinese and russian governaments didn't kill people in the name of atheism. Thats one more of the unending stream of logical fallacies of your kind. This one is called correlation-causation falacy.
A) The two aforementioned communist governaments killed millions of innocent people.
B) Their leaders happened to be atheists.
C) Therefore atheism causes suffering, death and mass murdering.
My turn now!
A) Hitler and Stalin killed together aroun 27 million innocent people
B) Hitler and Stalin both had ridiculous mustaches
C) Having ridiculous mustaches turns normal people into bloodthirsty dictators
Does the correlation really indicates causation?
Bogus enough for you to visualize the absurdity of your argument?
On the other hand, catholics have killed specifically in the name of the cristian god. And even assuming those were bad wolves hidden in sheeps fleece, its still a fact that the bible verses were used to endorse their actions.
This discussion here is particularly pointless. Im not going to sit here and point all massacres promoted by the catholic church. Its pointless and presents nothing to invalidate the fact that YOU are a good individual independent of what THOSE religious zealots were. Just as MUCH as I am a good person independent of what STALIN was.
I just recommend you not to judge me as an ignorant, converting-freak, theist-hating unbeliever. You would be wrong in all those hypothesis except the last one.
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TheDeath
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posted August 11, 2009 08:40 PM |
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I don't think that was Doomforge. I think it was Wolfsburg.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Salamandre
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posted August 11, 2009 08:51 PM |
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Elodin
Promising
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posted August 11, 2009 09:52 PM |
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Elodin, Wolfsburg already answered to this, so I will just quote, as I have nothing to add...or remove:
Sorry, the militant league of atheists is composed of atheists. They and Lenin/Stalin specificly had the stated goal of erradicating religion in the USSR. That is an action by avowed atheists.
They established atheism as the state religion.
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If god would have sent Joshua on a raping fever and have all of the 12 year olds under Ai's reingn fckd, you would endorse it with some "contextualized" excuse. You see this is a pointless discussion thats only going to hurt you?
You have made another "mistaken" statment (you endorsed his statements.) God never approved of any rape and never will. The penalty in Israel for rape was death. Some of you atheists don't care one bit for any truth.
If you want to lie about what I would or would not support maybe I should make upo stuff about what you would approve of? The next time you want to accuse me of supporting rape look in the mirror, point your finger and say LIAR.
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