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| Thread: What Do You Really Know About The Bible? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted May 27, 2009 01:14 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 13:30, 27 May 2009.
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Quote:
Now if I may explain naive: it's naive to believe that Elodin can "answer your questions" because he isn't open minded.
Thank you for the insult. I back my answers with Scripture when discussing relious topics. If you disagree with anything I say about the Bible present your argument with Scripture to back it up.
When discussing historical topics I try to present my view with relevant historical facts. Such as the writings of the founding fathers of America. The same with science.
I try to be as open minded and receptive to the truth as I can. I mentioned before my parents disowned me for a time because I left their denomination. I follow the truth wherever it may lead me.
Perhaps instead of saying I am closed minded and incapable of giving a correct answer about the Bible you should show what I have said about the Bible is wrong according to your opinion.
Please use Scripture to back it up for Scriputer must be interpreted with Scripture and receptivity to the Spirit or one falls into error. I certainly do not know everything but I have studied the Bible for many years. Not studying in order to prove a belief that I already have but to learn what the Bible truly says.
Edit:
I only skimmed through the quizz. It is from the anti-theist atheist hate group "Freedom from Religion." The "quizz" takes many things out of context and outright lies on other things (such as it says God tormented Job.)
I have already discussed the differences between the Old and New Covenants many times. The Old Covenant had civil penalties that only applies to the people living in Israel under the Old Coveanant. Christ established the New Covanant that was predicted by the Old Covenant prophets. The New Covenant has no civil penalties for sin as the church is not a nation. The church is never authorized to raise an army or conquer nations either. Christ did not come to establish a political kingdom but to sacrifice himself for our salvation.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
So the Bible command to stone rebellious children (of mature age) was only to the Jews who lived in the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant. It is not applicable to anyone else.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted May 27, 2009 01:32 PM |
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Using Scripture for somebody who does not believe in them is counter productive. So asking people to argue against your scripture with scripture is a bit odd to say the least. It is impossible to debate a 'belief' because it can not be proved or disproved either way. I could 'believe' that man is actually aliens (from space) who were stranded on this planet eons ago..and no matter what argument was made..you would be unable to change my mind. That is why it is called 'Faith'.
Personally I do not believe in your god, your scripture, or beliefs. I respect them, and respect your right to have them, but do not believe as you believe.
I believe in God, believe he had earthly messangers (if they were divine or not I am not sure of), and that God is a god of love and peace. I believe God has 'bigger fish to fry' then worring about who shares a bed with who, and many other things that people think god worries about.
This is really not the place to debate that though, there is threads for such. I apologize Angelito for spamming your thread, but felt it had to be said.
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Message received.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted May 27, 2009 02:47 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:48, 27 May 2009.
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Quote:
Using Scripture for somebody who does not believe in them is counter productive. So asking people to argue against your scripture with scripture is a bit odd to say the least.
Not if the topic is about the Bible and one person is accusing the other of being closed minded and incapable answering questions about the Bible.
If one is discussing a mathematical equation one can expect mathematics to be involved, yes? It would be strange to complain that one used mathematics to prove the equation correct or incorrect.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted May 27, 2009 05:52 PM |
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Quote:
It would be strange to complain that one used mathematics to prove the equation correct or incorrect.
But math is a quite different thing, dragging it into this is worse than comparing a browser shipped with an OS to tires to a car.
Elodin, your not closed minded. But you really lack the ability to doubt and view from different angles.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 27, 2009 05:59 PM |
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Could all those who try to teach Elodin how he should behave just try to give their opinion about the quiz and its answers so we get away from all these personal discussions?
Just to clarify it again: It is not important for this thread, if someones is open minded or not. It is important if he knows the text of the bible, and what's his opinion about some (or even all) correct answers to that questions asked in the quiz.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted May 27, 2009 07:08 PM |
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If you want a comment from me about a specific question I will be glad to address it. But I'm not going to give a detailed comment on all 50 questions.
I stated my general opinion of the quiz in my post at the top of the page. Most questions take verses out of context or even outright lie in the form of a question. The organization that produced the "quiz" is "Freedom from Religion", which is very hostile to religion and to Christianity in particular. They issued an official statement saying there is nothing but the material universe and that religious people are hard hearted and mentally enslaved so that tells you where they are coming from.
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted May 27, 2009 07:39 PM |
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A general question to you (or to any other here of course) from my side would be:
Do you think something like stoning the own son coz his behaving wasn't very accurate happened very often that time?
I mean, of course parents sometimes could turn crazy with their kids, but KILL it? Is a father or a mother really able to KILL the own son?
This is just beyond my imagination, especially because I am a father...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 27, 2009 07:45 PM |
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Agreed, Angelito, I cannot fathom it either. Of course, that's not the only occasion in the OT where someone is required to slaughter their own children.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 27, 2009 08:48 PM |
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Quote:
I mean, of course parents sometimes could turn crazy with their kids, but KILL it? Is a father or a mother really able to KILL the own son?
This is just beyond my imagination, especially because I am a father...
These days there are some much worse cases though. You can't say it's really impossible because it is happening.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 27, 2009 09:11 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 21:19, 27 May 2009.
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Quote:
A general question to you (or to any other here of course) from my side would be:
Do you think something like stoning the own son coz his behaving wasn't very accurate happened very often that time?
I mean, of course parents sometimes could turn crazy with their kids, but KILL it? Is a father or a mother really able to KILL the own son?
This is just beyond my imagination, especially because I am a father...
Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
Deu 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
1) There is no case recorded in the Bible of this ever being carried out so this was a very rare occurance.
2) This is not speaking of a young child. The normal discipline of a child was to spank the child. This is an older son. He would have been most likely late teen. A yound adult who was living at home. Remember that in those days the Hebrew custom was that the children would live at home until married.
3) This was not simple disobedience. This was an incorrigible disobedience and rebellion, beligerence towards his parents. By someone old enough to know better. He is a drunk and refuses to work in addition to his rebellion.
4)The mother and father were witnesses against the son (every trial had to have at least 2 witnesses) in a criminal trial. Trials were held at the gate of the city. Remember, that this is a civil punishment in the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant.
If the community had not observed the same behavior and deemed him guilty they would have spoken out in his behalf and the judge must consider their testimony as well.
This was a civil penalty to deter evil in the midst of Israel ("put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.)
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted May 28, 2009 09:25 AM |
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Thanks for your answer, was enlightening.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Galev
Famous Hero
Galiv :D
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posted June 01, 2009 11:58 PM |
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Edited by Galev at 10:06, 02 Jun 2009.
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I apologize for the poorly composed post that was here. I thought better of it.
Sorry, I was too tired when I wrote it and when I'm tired I forget about my certainty that I should not discuss serious matters in internet forums.
I don't delete this post so it will be a memento for me. Might for You too: think twice.
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Incidence? I think it's cummulative!
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted June 02, 2009 08:49 AM |
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If something can be misinterpreted, it was for sure not clearly enough written/said.
That's what the meaning of the word "interpretation" contents....subjective...not objective.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted June 02, 2009 10:28 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 10:29, 02 Jun 2009.
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Basically, one of the main reasons Jesus went down to Earth was to say "No, people, you got it all wrong, God does NOT want you to stone your kids."
People, however, nailed him to a cross.
Does that say that God is bad or that people are bad?
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted June 02, 2009 10:44 AM |
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Edited by bixie at 10:45, 02 Jun 2009.
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I veiw the bible as a collection of moral tales, like Esops fables, particularly the old testament. Thats maybe because I was taught it as thus.
during my early years, I grew up in a very relaxed mixed faith school, where we had everyone from catholics to hindus to muslims, nice little place, near Bracknell. whenever R.E came around, our teacher would get us in a circle and ask someone to tell us a story from their particular faith. I learnt, from there, about Rama, about Mohammad, about Jesus, about noah, about buddha, all manner of prophets and holymen with stories and morals to pass onto a younger generation.
My belief is that the bible is a collection of moral stories, and a believer would adhere to them rather than simply quote them. any man can quote "To be or not to be" but it takes a wise man to understand shakespeare completely.
if the above statement has caused offence, then pretend it was all a dream
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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jormungand
Adventuring Hero
The Hammer of Hate
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posted August 05, 2009 11:35 AM |
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Quote:
How should parents treat a stubborn and rebellious son?
 He should be stoned to death. --This cruelly excessive Mosaic law was actually enforced at one time by the Massachusetts colony and has been used to justify child abuse and murder.
"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them; Then shall his father and mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of the city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:17) "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he that cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)
Luckily my parents dont really believe in the bible or anything
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Gods of war I call you, my sword is by my side.
I seek a life of honor, free from all false pride.
I will crack the whip with a bold mighty hail.
Cover me with death if I should ever fail.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted August 05, 2009 02:13 PM |
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If you read my posts you will see the civil penalty of death for a rebellious son was not for simple disobedience of a child. And the person was brought to the city gates and a trial was held to see if he was indeed guilty of what the parents claimed (both parents had to testify as a witness.)
Also, the instruction was only for the Jews under the Old Covenant, not for Christians. Christians are under the New Covenant and have no civil penalty for sin.
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Rarensu
Known Hero
Formerly known as RTI
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posted August 09, 2009 10:51 AM |
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Edited by Rarensu at 10:55, 09 Aug 2009.
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The same argument can also be made against almost everything else in the old testament as well. Jesus did not intend to start a new religion, he intended to reform Judaism, which had drifted from its original path. If you throw out the covenant, then his teachings become meaningless, an appendix to no essay. Therefore I reject this argument.
Unless you believe that God's rules changed?
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Sincerely,
A Proponent of Spelling, Grammar, Punctuation, and Courtesy.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 09, 2009 10:58 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:00, 09 Aug 2009.
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What confuses me is the following.
Rev. 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Deut. 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Doesn't this say that nothing should be taken away from the bible (Including the old testament?)
Edit : Please take these verses with a grain of salt. I do not know the bible near as well as I once did, and am just asking for some clarification.
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Message received.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted August 09, 2009 06:15 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 18:20, 09 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
Jesus did not intend to start a new religion, he intended to reform Judaism, which had drifted from its original path.
Jesus came to die for our sins. He clearly stated that he was ratifying a New Covenant. Oh, the word Covenant is the same word as Testament, they are just translated into different words at times.
Quote:
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins
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The Old Covenant prophets had also prophesied of the New Covenant. They had promised a time when the Messiah would die for our sins. (Isaidh 53 for instance.)
Quote:
Jer 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant ...
Under the New Covenant we recieve the Spirit as the prophet Joel also prophesied would happen in th New Covenant. (Joel 2:27-32) Peter quoted this prophecy on the day the Christian church was born (the day of Pentecost.)
Quote:
Act 2:16-21 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit... And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
The Old Covenant was never intended to be permanent. It was to last until God became a man to die for our sins. The Old Covenant ceremonial laws were pointing towards that day. They were a shadow of the reality of Christ.
Quote:
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
@Mystical
What those passages mean is that mankind can't change the Word of God. No church leader can say, "OK, from now on it is no longer sin to steal," for example. No church leader can say, "OK, from now on you not only have to repent and be baptized to be saved, you also have to dance naked in the rain under a full moon in a flied of clover." No one has the authority to add to or detract from what God has said.
Mankind did not make the different covenants. God did. God sets the rules, not us.
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