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| Thread: if you could live forever |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT» |
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted April 28, 2010 09:05 AM |
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if you could live forever
here's a hypothetical scenario. in the future, scientists have developed cyborg bodies to place our brains in and continue to operate and to think. These bodies are strong and durable, and are able to last for centuries, with a nanobite injection that allows for rusted parts to be regenerated. my question is this.
if you could live in these robotic bodies as just a brain, would you, even without the senses of touch, smell and taste?
or to put it a bit more concisely,
if you could live forever, would you?
I think most people would, simply because we are all afraid of death. every single one of us are afraid of popping our clogs. that's why we subscribe to religions, to feel safe and secure, as the brutal reality provided by science is almost too much to bear. the idea that we as people, so full of ideas, and information, and hopes, and dreams, and fears, and hatred, and courage and joy and love, could be turned off no harder than a lightbulb.
though at the same time, I have stated that eternal life would not be a gift. after the first million years, yeah, maybe, but after that, it gets agonisingly long and painful, those you love will wither away, and you will continue on. it would not be a gift, but a curse. Mortality gives us purpose, the fact that we won't live forever gives us urgence to experience life to the fullest.
in all honesty, I am genuinely torn on this. I hate the idea of eternal life, but I also hate the idea that we just cease to exist.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 28, 2010 09:12 AM |
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I would. I'm constantly low on time.
You can always pull the plug so to speak.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 28, 2010 09:17 AM |
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I know it is mostly my own fault, but life is rather dull and boring. Why would I want an eternity of that? Nah. I'll pass thanks. No immortality for me. However, it MIGHT be closer then you think.
Combined with Cloning, there is something called Lifenaut. Which is working to try to record memories. So..you might see something like what happened in The Sixth Day (with Arny) sooner then you think.
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Message received.
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kookastar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted April 28, 2010 09:40 AM |
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is there life without touch and taste?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 28, 2010 10:10 AM |
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For me, it would already be interesting eough to "follow humanity through the times" so-to-speak.
A win-win situation, like Joonas said: ou can always pull the plug.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted April 28, 2010 10:23 AM |
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Hmm... I bet I could just use some neuro-manipulator-thingies or sumthin to' make my brain believe I'm tasting something or being touched etc. I mean, even people who have lost their hand can still feel their lost hand sometimes cuz the brain still thinks it's there, it's all in the brain.
But even without that I'd still do it, could always kill myself as people have already mentioned.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted April 28, 2010 10:25 AM |
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with the "you can always pull the plug" stuff...
would you really?
Would you, in you're heart of hearts, say that you will let yourself die at the end of it?
chances are, you won't. our natural instinct is survival, and what's to stop you from living indefinately.
more to the point, death becomes scarier the longer you are from it.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 28, 2010 10:26 AM |
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If you want to die you will kill yourself.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 28, 2010 10:29 AM |
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Quote:
our natural instinct is survival, and what's to stop you from living indefinately.
What about suicides nowadays?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 28, 2010 10:32 AM |
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What kookie said, what is the point of such an empty existence? You wouldn't be able to feel a warm embrace, the breeze of the wind, the refreshing feel of moisture.. Sure you could accumulate great amounts of knowledge, get acquainted with every piece of philosophy and literature, visit and live in different places of the world for years before moving on to your next destination. I won't deny that this sounds tempting.. But I'd simply feel detached, out of this world and not just because the world would keep changing. There's the matter of sleep, if you can't sleep or tire you will eventually have to keep doing something or end up thinking and thinking. For hours and hours everyday. If that doesn't drive you nuts it will certainly cause utter boredom.
I don't care if I die, everyone will at some point and I accept that. If I ever desired immortality it would be to experience all the things I have been unable to in my lifespan but certainly not at the cost of basic human senses or pleasures. And I have no desire to live a robot's life nor say a vampire's.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted April 28, 2010 10:35 AM |
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There is no way that I'd do it. Life is long enough, most people don't need or want any more.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 28, 2010 10:38 AM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 10:38, 28 Apr 2010.
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What if some people don't live through those feelings in the first place?
What if some people feel detached from this world already?
What if those some people live through the thoughts, fantasies and feelings coming from the inside?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 28, 2010 10:40 AM |
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Then they have nothing left to lose 
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 28, 2010 10:44 AM |
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I know that.
So, wouldn't the choice to live forever like that be just he decision?
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ohforfsake
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Initiate
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posted April 28, 2010 11:53 AM |
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I'd choose to live forever and I hope all those I love and care about would choose the same.
Bixie wrote:
Quote:
I have stated that eternal life would not be a gift. [...]Mortality gives us purpose, the fact that we won't live forever gives us urgence to experience life to the fullest.
You state that mortality is what makes life meaningful to live.
If anything, I see it the other way around, that is mortality removes purpose of life and in general I find those two concepts very unrelated.
I think Joonas makes some very good points also, which I believe shows somwhat why defining the value of your life through certain feelings [that you do not choose] is somewhat... well can't really find the word for it right now.
Edit: While I remember it.
Many would probably use general observations such as happiness in overdose does not really make you happy, an example of this is ice cream, or anything tastes good.
First time it tastes awesome, but if you only eat what tastes awesome, suddenly it doesn't taste so awesome anymore, because you get used to it.
Through this, I've seen people conclude that everyone needs negative aspects of their life, to get positive aspects, because it's not absolute terms, it's relative terms, it depends on the current situation.
That I think, is true, but only if you'd limit yourself to get pleasure through objects and not direct intervention.
Let me allow to define it very generally.
Object -> Body interaction -> Fluid transportation (drugs in the brain) -> Brain recieving (interpretate into a signal) -> Electrical impulse (happiness) -> You (consciouss self).
This is a very general, and not very exact way to show it, but I just want to seperate the important groups here, in reality it's probably much more complicated, but that's not relevant in this matter.
Now in the ice cream example:
ONE ice cream -> Absorbed by the body (eaten) -> Fluid transportation (drugs travels into the brain, stuff like flavour activators, etc.) -> Brain recieving (interpretate into a signal) -> Electrical impulse (happiness in form of a great taste experience) -> You (consciouss self expereince this form of happiness).
Now as the example goes we continue to eat ice creams:
HUNDRED ice creams -> Absorbed by the body (eaten) -> Fluid transportation (drugs travels into the brain, stuff like flavour activators, etc. (however now it may not only be different drugs than before, but also a different reaction inside the brain)) -> Brain recieving (interpretate into a signal (however now the signal it interpretates to is different)) -> Electrical impulse (due to another interpretation, the result is different) -> You (consciouss self expereince this other signal).
Conclusion from the person who cannot seperate these groups:
One ice cream, good, hundred ice cream, bad. Thereby happiness should come in small packages.
However it may very well be a conclusion only useful if you cannot seperate these groups, can you seperate, you do not need the entire sequence of:
Object -> Body interaction -> Fluid transportation (drugs in the brain) -> Brain recieving (interpretate into a signal) ->
Because it's very likely that the difference happens both in the drugs the brain recives, but also types of negative feedbacks, which means a higher dose does not produce a great results (the interpretation into a signal part).
Can we isolate the following sequence:
Electrical impulse (happiness) -> You (consciouss self).
We'd go around the entire negative feedback, and there's no limit to the feel of happiness.
Though I disagree with happiness to be important, I do think it's a relevant point that by direct stimulation of the consciouss self in stead of going through the layers of the body, negative feedback systems can probably be avoided by finding the 'final connection' the "happiness signal", if you want.
The same goes for any kind of emotion, both positive as well as negative. It means in principe, it could also be imagined one could block all types of negative signals.
An example of this:
Poison (known for activate pain) -> Absorbed by the body (eaten) -> Fluid transportation (drugs travels into the brain) -> Brain recieving (interpretate into a signal) -> Electrical impulse (in this case the experience of pain) -/signal cut off/-> You (consciouss self does not experience pain).
The example of pain, I find very relevant to this topic, because if you truely are immortal, what functions do pain have? Now it's "that hurts, i.e. it's a bad idea, becase it harms me", but if nothing can harm you, what good does come from it hurting?
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Living time backwards
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 28, 2010 01:28 PM |
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I already have eternal life. I have no desire to live as a cyborg. 
@Bixie
I disagree that we are all afraid of death. I am not and that is not why I "subscribe" to religion. Oh, what "brutal reality" does science provide? It does not prove that there is no life after death if that is what you meant.
I agree that "eternal life" as a cyborg may not be very pleasant. I disagree that mortality is what gives meaning to life. The fact that my body will one day cease to function is certainly not what gives meaning to my life.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted April 28, 2010 01:28 PM |
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People seem to become more complacent towards life and acceptant of death as they age, though is it because life only has so much to offer or is it because they're old and fatigue and life is incapable of offering what it once did? If they could have vitality again, would life regain much of its appeal? More than likely. Does eating cease to be enjoyable as you do it more? How about sex? How about a foot massage? Do you care about your loved ones less as life goes on? Does a father love his child less the longer he's been alive? To all the above, the answer is no.
We're approaching what could be, in a fashion, the best and yet darkest time in human history. Assuming such technologies are perfected that can extend life indefinitely, it's questionable whether we'll be able to do it to already existing humans or not. What if we can create a post-human species, superior to us, that can live indefinitely? Would we do it? [somebody would] We'd be creating children that are better than us, will live indefinitely, fully knowing that we will die. Or if such life-extending technology is developed, how long will it take for the technology to be available to everybody? If only the rich would get it, class warfare would almost certainly ignite since something like that has enormous more appeal than the usual luxuries. Or what if they can maintain a human but are unable to restore them to a youthful condition? The older generations would have to live with that. The amount of envy in the world would multiply.
Back to the original question, yeah sure.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted April 28, 2010 02:04 PM |
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I already have eternal life.
Bollocks. all humans die. I'm not talking about the soul or anything like that, I am talking mortal flesh and finite heartbeats.
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I have no desire to live as a cyborg.
well good, because you running around for eternity will drag the entire of mankind back a century in progression
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I disagree that we are all afraid of death. I am not and that is not why I "subscribe" to religion.
Utter trite. you, like many other, want to feel special and garunteed a place next to you're big daddy when you die. You have no more proof in those fairy stories you hold so dear than the hindus have in reincarnation. both are valid, both are invalid, both are possible, and impossible, both are completely and utter there to comfort each person and offer an answer to an unknowable question.
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Oh, what "brutal reality" does science provide? It does not prove that there is no life after death if that is what you meant.
the brutal reality that science, so far, has concluded (open to change if we get some alternative, testable, demonstratable proof from anyone other than hysterics) is that there is no afterlife, and when we die, our brains switch off and that's it.
and considering how callously life is treated in the world, where some people see it as acceptable to kill others over they're f**king job, that is truly, truly sad. millions of people, they're minds so knowledge, dreams, love, can just be rendered inert with the pull of a trigger.
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I agree that "eternal life" as a cyborg may not be very pleasant.
No, All forms of immortality apart from those born into it will be a nightmare to those who have it. as I say, it will be good from a purely intellectual point of view, but we are not machines. We are human beings, beings that need love, companionship, f**king emotions to consider ourselves human. It will take a mere thousand years for someone to loose all desire to love someone if they're partner is not immortal. It will take a mere thousand years to realise that angry, courage, honour and such are nothing. it will take a mere thousand years to say that imagination is useless. It will take a mere thousand years of a humans new, extended life, for them to cease to be human!
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I disagree that mortality is what gives meaning to life. The fact that my body will one day cease to function is certainly not what gives meaning to my life.
Finality gives us urgency, it gives us the need to act now, to think now, to love now, to dream now, to acheive now, to fight now, to win now, to cry now. It gives us the need to live for the moment, to enjoy friends, family, lovers and workmates, for we know that someday, we all die.
"Life is to important to be taken seriously."- oscar wilde.
Eternity will mean we can put stuff off, it will never get done. Gone will be the wonderous action that makes our society great, Gone will be spark and the life that careens our society into bold and unexplored areas. We loose that, we cease to be human. We gain immortality, we have any kind of immortality, we become slothful, ignorant and stupid. We loose our desire to learn, our desire to progress, because that can wait another thousand years. we become no more humans than stones.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 28, 2010 02:18 PM |
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On the matter of mortality giving purpose to ones life:
Bixie wrote:
Quote:
Finality gives us urgency, it gives us the need to act now, to think now, to love now, to dream now, to acheive now, to fight now, to win now, to cry now. It gives us the need to live for the moment, to enjoy friends, family, lovers and workmates, for we know that someday, we all die.
"Life is to important to be taken seriously."- oscar wilde.
Eternity will mean we can put stuff off, it will never get done. Gone will be the wonderous action that makes our society great, Gone will be spark and the life that careens our society into bold and unexplored areas. We loose that, we cease to be human. We gain immortality, we have any kind of immortality, we become slothful, ignorant and stupid. We loose our desire to learn, our desire to progress, because that can wait another thousand years. we become no more humans than stones.
You claim that it's mortality (limited life span) that makes us do things now, that we in principle could do another day, if we'd the time, and that if were immortal, we'd wait another day to do it.
That might be true for you, maybe you only do your actions, because you're "afraid" (sorry for lack of better word here) to miss something and you want to experience it all.
My own opinion is that, at least for me, life is not defined through experiences. I have no intentions of trying to smoke, drugs, parashoot diving or anything that'll very likely give an extreme thrill (emotional response to extreme environment).
What you seem to forget is that no matter what you do, even if you don't change your actions, you're doing something. Standing in one place for 5 billion years is still doing something.
No the point is, what do you want to do? If you want to create this project, then what stops you doing it? Because it can be done tomorrow as you have infinite time? Then you didn't really want to create the project, you only wanted the result of the project, I bet.
It's very important to seperate this, it's in my opinon, a huge confusion, that mortality gives purpose, at most it's completely opposite, because we're mortal we've to do things we'd otherwise not do. I mean who'd want to eat, if there was no purpose and you'd get the joy of eating wheneter you want? Yet you still have to eat when you'd rather do something else.
Here it's important to seperate the action and the consequence of the action. Eating, that putting stuff in your mouth and chewing it, is not interesting. The emotion it produces is.
Eating is the action, and the consequnece is the emotion. So when I write who'd want to eat, I'm talking about the action, not the consequence.
Because of course you'd be able to get the emotion triggered, probably even more powerfull, you've infinite time to figure out how after all.
All in all, my point is, your wants will be unchanged, however your priorities will change when moving from mortality to immortality, basicly allowing much more of your wants to be fulfilled. So if you want to do it, you'll do it, and if you're postponing it, I'll say that you only want the consequence and not the action that leads to the consequence, so go get the consequence.
In the case of learning, this would be, in stead of reading the book, you'd directly code into your memory the information from the book.
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Living time backwards
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 28, 2010 02:44 PM |
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I can say that I do not fear death. I do fear pain however, though I most of the times can force myself to ignore it. That does not mean that I will go and kill myself. I have insight enough to see that there's always yet another thing that life can offer you. Maybe death can as well, but there's neither proof or indication that that is the case. Even if there were, why take the guess? I of course speak through my experience, a lot of people are apparently willing to take that guess, either because of fate of a better result, or a perception that the stakes aren't high to begin with (I.E. there's a heaven after death, or that life isn't worth living).
The original topic: I would of course live on as a cyborg. I live not for the taste of ice cream nor the pleasures of flesh, even though I do enjoy them. Why I live then? I also find social interaction, knowledge, intelligence and self perfection are goals worth chasing, so that would be what I would do. When that is finished or I simply feel accomplished I would have no reason to live, and would there for stop.
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