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| Thread: Morals VS Technology... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Fauch
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posted May 24, 2011 03:57 AM |
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depends if they are aware of the risks.
you could go as far as to take mentally ill people who will have no way to understand and say "that's ok, they agreed"
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Salamandre
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posted May 24, 2011 04:40 AM |
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But if you combine the two - getting money for donating a kidney - it's suddenly wrong. Doesn't make any sense.
I see this very sensed. Mutilating yourself for other people health should remain a voluntary act and free of remuneration. Can't you imagine what would happen if tomorrow everyone is allowed to sell parts of his body? It would be catastrophic.
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mvassilev
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posted May 24, 2011 04:40 AM |
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Fauch:
If they're mentally ill to a great enough extent, they're not capable of agreeing. (That is, even if they can physically say "I agree", it is no more agreement than a child doing the same.)
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Elodin
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posted May 24, 2011 04:51 AM |
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It's unethical because if one person can pay for a kidney and you can't merely because you don't have the means it makes it unethical as seen by standards which apply in our society,
Why is it unethical because one person has the means to buy a kidney and one person does not?
Obama owns a 3 story mansion in Chicago. Was it unethical for him to buy such a home since everyone can't afford one?
If someone wants to sell one of their kidneys why should they not have that option? It is 100% their body.
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Salamandre
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posted May 24, 2011 05:03 AM |
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Because people are stupid enough to kill themselves by removing multiple organs within cheap medical structures, for better profit. Besides this it will create a parallel economy, with all the worse things coming from it: stealth companies forcing people to mutilate themselves, by diminishing the real risks, promising moon and earth. In the end, it will cost the tax payers much more, because a lot of people will become really ill. John will remove his both kidneys for dollars just because he can, then Elodin will pay all his life John holidays in hospital. Among others.
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mvassilev
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posted May 24, 2011 05:10 AM |
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If people are stupid, let them be stupid. If they kill themselves, that's no one's fault but their own. Freedom also means the freedom to make mistakes. If John is stupid, he should pay for his own stupidity and all the costs of staying in the hospital. Just because some people would hurt themselves doesn't mean we should restrict freedom for everyone.
As for force and fraud - that is already illegal, and those who practice it in the organ market would be cracked down upon.
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Salamandre
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posted May 24, 2011 05:12 AM |
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That's not how it works. Tax payers have to pay for ill persons, this is health-care and the mark of a civilized country. The tax payer does not know where his money goes, and how John became ill. You can not say on one side "sell your kidney" and on the other side "you will have to take care financially of your post illness", because this will not make sense, denying the profit from organs traffic.
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Smithey
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posted May 24, 2011 05:13 AM |
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Edited by Smithey at 05:15, 24 May 2011.
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Why is it unethical because one person has the means to buy a kidney and one person does not?
Obama owns a 3 story mansion in Chicago. Was it unethical for him to buy such a home since everyone can't afford one?
If someone wants to sell one of their kidneys why should they not have that option? It is 100% their body.
I'm sorry, did you just compare human body to a house ?
Considering you are the religious one here, I assumed you would see human body as a sacred thing, guess I was wrong.
Human body is not for sale, whether it's for prostitution, body parts, slavery or any other aspect, to your insane question why shouldn't people have the option to sell body parts well it's simple - a person who chooses to give his organ for free does so out of his free will, because he so desires, a person who chooses to sell his organ does so because he needs the cash, if a person gives away his organ so he can receive a payment it wasn't his choice to do so but instead outside factors forced him into that action...
Laws were created to spare people from making harsh decisions such as self mutiliation for money, it's a frightening thought to even imagine a world where we would auction body parts, looking to cut the price of organs by people's desperation levels, you call yourself a man of god yet have the decency to suggest that....
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Salamandre
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posted May 24, 2011 05:24 AM |
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Elodin is right on one thing, our body is 100% our.
But most of us do not know how it works, and what can hurt for ever its integrity, we lack those medical informations. And there is an unspoken nature law, don't try to modify what you don't understand, because you will screw. We don't talk about circumcision here, but about harsh modifications on your vital organs which millions of ignorants will suddenly jump on.
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mvassilev
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posted May 24, 2011 05:31 AM |
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Sal:
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Tax payers have to pay for ill persons, this is health-care and the mark of a civilized country.
I don't see why they "have to" or how using force to fund health care makes a country civilized - people should pay for themselves - this ensures personal responsibility (if you do something stupid, the taxpayers don't bail you out), efficiency (people pay for the treatment they prefer, instead of their care being managed by the government), and basic common sense (people aren't forced to take care of strangers). It makes perfect sense to say, "Sell your kidney if you want, but you're responsible for dealing with the consequences.'
smithey:
If nothing else, a person owns their own body. As such, they should have the right to do what they wish with it, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else - ingest drugs, prostitute themselves, sell body parts, etc. Otherwise, you're infringing on their personal autonomy. If a person wants to put their body up for sale, why do you have the right to stop them? A person who donates their kidneys and a person who sells them equally do it of their own free will - assuming no one is holding a gun to their head. It's about personal choice, and you seem to be against it.
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Salamandre
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posted May 24, 2011 05:37 AM |
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I don't see why they "have to" or how using force to fund health care makes a country civilized - people should pay for themselves -
I hope you will remain in good health for your entire life. Because in your "everyone cares only about himself", if you have the bad luck to get really ill and can't afford, you will be soon dead in atrocious sufferings. Health care is everyone's chance to survive and on its turn to help others survive, more over it is the proof that your money income is not automatically giving to your life a better value. Only rich can survive then?
Illness has not always a logical cause or triggered by our "bad" actions, thus you can not held one responsible for his illness.
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assuming no one is holding a gun to their head.
The poverty is similar to a gun over your head. I think Smithey explained it rather well.
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Elodin
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posted May 24, 2011 06:13 AM |
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That's not how it works. Tax payers have to pay for ill persons, this is health-care and the mark of a civilized Marxist country.
Marxism is not equal to civilization dude. In fact, Marxism is very uncivilized.
The government should let John sell both his kidneys and then let John die unless some charitable tax payer decides to save him. The government is not supposed to be a nanny. It is not there to make your decisions or to bail you out when you do stupid stuff.
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Considering you are the religious one here, I assumed you would see human body as a sacred thing, guess I was wrong.
Yes, I see the human body as sacred. However, I don't have a right to control your body.
I see smoking, eating too much, drinking to excess, exercising too much, and many other things as being harmful to the body and thus being sin. But that does not mean I think those things should be illegal.
One of the many problems with liberalism is that liberals want the government to control everyone's bodies and dictate what they can think and say.
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Salamandre
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posted May 24, 2011 06:20 AM |
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I don't see how health care is the mark of Marxism. Are you suggesting that Europe is still marxist?
Secondly, I don't understand your logic: you are pro a law allowing to sell organs, but on the other side you call this action a "stupid thing".
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mvassilev
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posted May 24, 2011 07:48 AM |
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Sal:
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I hope you will remain in good health for your entire life.
I don't have to. A combination of savings and catastrophic health insurance will serve quite well - unless of course the government will make it illegal. Also, why does "bad luck" entitle you to steal from others? Is being lucky a crime? Do the unlucky deserve to punish the lucky?
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The poverty is similar to a gun over your head.
These kinds of statements are insults to people who are really enslaved and forced to work against their will. There's a vast difference between being coerced and not being coerced.
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Salamandre
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posted May 24, 2011 08:07 AM |
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I had the same ideas when I was 15 and my parents were paying my bills. Things changed later, even the best job is very vulnerable, the body starts to behave weird after 35 yo, and when you get on your own feet, you realize a world without cooperation and sharing between humans is gonna be too stressing and discriminating. In all, your conclusion is that the money is determining your fate, you have enough, you are safe, you don't, wait for your doom.
Last time I checked, an hospital day was between 1000-2000 euros. That's one month of a standard income. To cure a cancer, it takes months for example. The combination of "savings and bad insurance" is simply not enough, unless you are Rothschild.
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mvassilev
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posted May 24, 2011 08:26 AM |
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None of what you said gives you the right to steal from others to make yourself healthier. Why do they owe you anything? Why do you have a right to their money?
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Last time I checked, an hospital day was between 1000-2000 euros. That's one month of a standard income.
What kind of "standard income" is that? Maybe if you only make slightly above minimum wage - nothing close to the average. And there's no way a typical hospital stay is that expensive. I've had relatives go into the hospital recently, and while expensive, it definitely wasn't anywhere near 1000 euros.
If you make $40,000 a year - fairly average - you can afford to save a lot, and while health care treatment is expensive (and that's partly the government's fault too), you can save up quite a lot.
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Zenofex
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posted May 24, 2011 08:34 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 08:41, 24 May 2011.
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I don't see how health care is the mark of Marxism.
It is, to a pretty large extent. Not exactly marxist but rather a result of worker movements in the XVIII-XX century and the ideological threat from the Soviet Union after that (the marxsim is just one of the many such doctrines, but it was the most developed one). The thing is that the average mid-XIX century worker was working 12-16 hours, sometimes even more, for an existence minimum salary and was generally living a dog's life. And that's not in some backwater country but in the most advanced European powers. If it wasn't for the worker movements, the "communism", the Soviet Union and other such now diabolical things - some of which have their pretty bad sides indeed - the situation would've been the same even today.
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Smithey
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posted May 24, 2011 08:39 AM |
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Edited by Smithey at 08:55, 24 May 2011.
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Yes, I see the human body as sacred. However, I don't have a right to control your body.
I see smoking, eating too much, drinking to excess, exercising too much, and many other things as being harmful to the body and thus being sin. But that does not mean I think those things should be illegal.
One of the many problems with liberalism is that liberals want the government to control everyone's bodies and dictate what they can think and say.
I don't get what liberals have to do with selling body parts ?
This has zero context to politics, this is about reason only, let me explain in a simple manner (even though it seems pretty useless considering you are in some irrelevant politic discussion with yourself)
If people are allowed to sell organs for money, there is a supply of organs, demand as well, both leading to the creation of an organ market, now considering there is more supply (way more poor people than rich ones in need of organs) than demand the price of organs is going down, meaning what was once 50k will go down to 40k and will keep dropping until there are desperate people who will sell organs for a couple of meals because it's better to give up on one organ instead of to starve today, bad people will round up homeless ones making a profitable business of selling their parts, total abuse of people, the next obvious step is bad parents who own their kids organs untill the latter ones are 16 years old, sale of kids organs has just began so parents can buy booze, drugs or a freaking tv..... Is your delusional mind capable of seeing where I'm going with this or will you build some insane irrelevant political context here as well ? Its beyond me how you can be religious and support such abuse of human body, jesus! I swear I have never encountered someone with such blind vision to everything....
edit : forget it Salamandre, mvass is living in a fantasy world, unaware of reality which is that in the states one MRI costs a couple of thousands dollars and that is just an MRI which is done if you sprain your ankle/knee, expenses of a small surgery reach well beyond 10000 $ and that is excluding the use of private hospitals which can reach tens of thousands...
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Salamandre
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posted May 24, 2011 08:45 AM |
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Mvas, the income of an university teacher, which is the best job you can find in this branch, is about 30 000 euros a year, at highest. Maybe it goes up to 40 k after 20 years of work, but unlikely. All the other jobs, excluding lawyers, surgeons and marketing freaks are way lower than that.
The standard income is around 1300 euros/month. A scientist, even at top of branch, is around 30 000/year as well. Europe is not USA, but at least you are fully covered if ill. Fortunately, otherwise you don't make it.
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mvassilev
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posted May 24, 2011 08:52 AM |
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The standard income is around 1300 euros/month.
That doesn't sound realistic at all. I know France isn't quite as rich as the US, but there's no way the US is twice as rich.
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