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Haregar
Famous Hero
of destruction
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posted October 04, 2015 03:30 PM |
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@this discussion
This discussion is pointless not because it repeats the topic that has been with us since May 1999. Too bad the reason to start an argument was, is and propably will be the same: Forge as not being canon town. Source of it's almost every single time the same, I mean lack of knowledge about Might&Magic lore.
Dj said:
you have no idea about lore, you re like those few fans who were against the official forge.
Totally agreed. torrasque, sadly, propably doesn't know the story of Ancients, their technology and how it disappeared on Antagarich (yes, there were advanced technologies before the story of HoMM 1).
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted October 05, 2015 10:00 AM |
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Haregar said:
Totally agreed. torrasque, sadly, propably doesn't know the story of Ancients, their technology and how it disappeared on Antagarich (yes, there were advanced technologies before the story of HoMM 1).
I"m afraid neither you or DJ guy can ready with comprehension. His point was not about lore which he obviously knows, re read his posts please. He was arguing about term "mutation" and lore doesnt have to do with anything here, its just useless speculation whether something is or is not a mutant in a fantasy world.
Dj said:
source *rollseyes*
Its far from being an official source that i asked for. Its just some journalist saying random thangs. I want the original creator quote.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2015 10:14 AM |
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When Hellhound upgrades to Cerberi, what else it could be if not mutation? IT gets additional heads in his lifetime.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted October 05, 2015 10:19 AM |
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There is a reason why old Forge thread was closed. People disussing about their beliefs and expectations.
However, the fact is that Forge was released for VCMI and you either can like it or make you own.
All these pseudo-scientific arguments about fantasy game (which never pretends to be realistic) are just ridiculous and can't change anything.
____________
The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Haregar
Famous Hero
of destruction
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posted October 05, 2015 12:50 PM |
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revolut1oN said:
I"m afraid neither you or DJ guy can ready with comprehension. His point was not about lore which he obviously knows, re read his posts please. He was arguing about term "mutation" and lore doesnt have to do with anything here, its just useless speculation whether something is or is not a mutant in a fantasy world.
I'm afraid you did not undertand my point of view. I referred mostly on stupidity of complaining around fantasy lore, trying to mess with scientific terminology. I do understand their argument was (is?) mostly about the meaning of term "mutation" and both of them know at least basic history of Might&Magic universe (especially Dj), but seriously... these are - as you said - only speculations and theories meant to stay only theories, or beliefs or both. As Warmonger have already said, that was one of the reasons why previous Forge thread was closed. There were getting less and less decent materials, but more and more storms about how illogical "x" is, how stupid "x" is, how canon "x" is or how dumb person "y" is.
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Pavijan
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 02:13 AM |
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Edited by Pavijan at 10:46, 10 Oct 2015.
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It seems that I will have the honor to break this mutated debate. 
Now, I have tried the town and must say that I'm impressed with the quality of work, honestly a good job!
I had only few concerns with the Forge:
1) City looks very off on the adventure map, not because of gray color, but from blandness of it. It looks like someone stripped all texture from it, like the placeholder for the random city from map editor. This could be easily remedied by painting it like the castle building from the town city window. That really looks nice.
2) Lack of specific traits for some creatures, like for upgraded stingers and upgraded thugs (forgot their name, sorry  ). Immune to death ripple doesn't count, sorry  One creature without ability in a town is acceptable. 2 in a single town isn't. Give ether upg. thugs or upg. stinger at least something characteristic and it will be good.
3) Dreadnought seams bit lackluster statistic-wise, among the weaker lvl 7 creatures, primarily HP and defense-wise (while also it's attack and damage isn't impressive ether). I believe it should be MUCH tankier, given that that something named like that should represent enormous, incredibly tough armored, monstrosity.
Yes, it has a 30HP regeneration, while it could be useful for creeping early on, but later in massive battles, it doesn't really matter that much. (Also it's movement animation could be a bit speed-up. )
That's my feedback, keep up the good work!
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sergey808a
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 11, 2015 01:04 PM |
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Where can I find this DEF with full animations? and who is an author of this model?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 22, 2015 03:53 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 03:54, 22 Oct 2015.
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I have cleaned about a dozen of the most off-topic posts. The point of this thread isn't really to discuss whether the Forge belongs in HoMM. There are other places to do that, although so many decades later, you'd think all lines of argument would have been exhausted by now...
Also, please try to keep in mind that the Code of Conduct forbids insults and provocation. Some of you aren't too far away from that.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 23, 2015 09:33 PM |
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Just wanted to post my appreciation to the Polish Forge Team and their awesome work, I admit I was a tad disappointed to see no Cyber-Zombies nor Naga Tanks in the lineup, until I played it, truly great lineup, Guards looks real nice and I'm especially fond of the Brainsuckers, love them!
Music theme is fitting too, overall atmosphere of the town is a success in my opinion.
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Dj
Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
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posted November 23, 2015 09:46 PM |
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i have good news for you: naga tank is planned as an alternative creature for forge by the VCMI Mod Design Team
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Haregar
Famous Hero
of destruction
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posted November 24, 2015 08:38 AM |
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Good to know, Dj. That's great we're gonna have naga tank in Forge, at last (as alternative or not, but still).
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted November 25, 2015 08:42 AM |
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pellish
Famous Hero
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posted December 07, 2015 02:30 PM |
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Does anyone have the complete .def of the Pyromaniac made by Alex-ander?
http://speedy.sh/r2g3x/pyromaniac.def
This one is missing its turning and up and down attack animations.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 07, 2015 02:51 PM |
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pellish said:
Does anyone have the complete .def of the Pyromaniac made by Alex-ander?
http://speedy.sh/r2g3x/pyromaniac.def
This one is missing its turning and up and down attack animations.
i'm interested in this as well.
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SkeleTony
Hired Hero
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posted April 06, 2016 01:55 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
@torrasque
mutation
noun
1.
Biology.
a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome.
an individual, species, or the like, resulting from such a departure.
2.
the act or process of changing.
3.
a change or alteration, as in form or nature.
So yeah, Vampire mutates (changes, see point 2 of definition) into bat.
And, btw, no need to insult other members.
You guys who keep posting this nonsense are completely ignoring something called CONTEXT. While you may indeed be able to find a listed dictionary usage which you can semantically stretch to fit whatever idea you are proposing, this does not work to make vampires into mutants. Vampires do not "mutate" into bats. They CHANGE INTO BATS through supernatural/magical means as befits their origins in folklore and fantasy mythology.
Mutants are a science fiction archetype and while there is no reason they should not be found in science fantasy (which is the genre of the Forge town. Not "steampunk" or "mad scientist")I think the objection being offered by (I forget his name but it begins with a 'T') is that the brainsuckers and such are inconsistent with the theme of the town and comes off like "We got tired of making new graphics so we just grabbed the most science fiction-ish graphics we had and made a new unit.".
It is like the Conflux town in this way since sprites (and arguably phoenixes) do not really belong and don't fit the 'elemental' theme. Which is understandable considering the NWC guys had to bang out a new town in record time because of a bunch of ignorant children at the "Astral Wizard" fan site.
"Brainsuckers" are the sort of unit you would expect in say Starcraft, as a Zerg unit or some such.
Having said all of that, I have no dog in this fight and unless the Forge comes to HotA I don't plan on using such and even if it did I would only check it out as a curiosity.
Speaking of curiosity...in this Polish Forge what did you guys decide on for the Might and Magic heroes? I remember an old Forge thread (may have been for Wog) where the authors of another Forge project had come up with "Cyborgs" (as the Might hero?) and some other nonsense and I tried to inform them about more appropriate hero types like "Technomancer" and "Artificer" and such but they did not seem to understand what I was talking about.
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SkeleTony
Hired Hero
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posted April 06, 2016 01:59 PM |
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Macron1 said:
When Hellhound upgrades to Cerberi, what else it could be if not mutation? IT gets additional heads in his lifetime.
That is not at all "mutation". The Hellhounds are not turning into Cerberi. The structure which produces them is upgraded so that cerberus AS WELL AS Hellhounds) can be produced.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2016 06:14 PM |
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SkeleTony said:
Macron1 said:
When Hellhound upgrades to Cerberi, what else it could be if not mutation? IT gets additional heads in his lifetime.
That is not at all "mutation". The Hellhounds are not turning into Cerberi. The structure which produces them is upgraded so that cerberus AS WELL AS Hellhounds) can be produced.
You can upgrade Hellhounds to Cerberi in town or in Fort On The Hill
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Dj
Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
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posted April 06, 2016 07:14 PM |
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Edited by Dj at 19:28, 06 Apr 2016.
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SkeleTony said:
You guys who keep posting this nonsense are completely ignoring something called CONTEXT. While you may indeed be able to find a listed dictionary usage which you can semantically stretch to fit whatever idea you are proposing, this does not work to make vampires into mutants. Vampires do not "mutate" into bats. They CHANGE INTO BATS through supernatural/magical means as befits their origins in folklore and fantasy mythology.
Mutants are a science fiction archetype and while there is no reason they should not be found in science fantasy (which is the genre of the Forge town. Not "steampunk" or "mad scientist")I think the objection being offered by (I forget his name but it begins with a 'T') is that the brainsuckers and such are inconsistent with the theme of the town and comes off like "We got tired of making new graphics so we just grabbed the most science fiction-ish graphics we had and made a new unit.".
i was not speaking nonsense. what i was trying to say, and apparently no one understood, is that homm lore has its own concept about mutation. it is not stolen from DC/Marvel comics (like torrasque said) and it s not a science fiction archetype, not necessarily. the original devs had their own idea of mutation.
about CHANGING into bats, you can also call it SHAPESHFTING since the vampire SHIFTS his shape into a bat, but the modern archetype of SHAPESHIFTING is correlated with the druids who SHAPESHIFT into different wild animals. so you re not right either. i called it mutation because it can be interchangeable with change, shift, etc. I was trying to prove that the homm universe already knows the concept of mutation and that it is diverse and not borrowed/stolen.
Quote:
the authors of another Forge project had come up with "Cyborgs" (as the Might hero?) and some other nonsense and I tried to inform them about more appropriate hero types like "Technomancer" and "Artificer" and such but they did not seem to understand what I was talking about.
again, im talking to people who have no idea about the lore or the original concept of the forge, but that's my own fault.
the official version of forge's heroes:
'Might hero is Cyborg and Magic Hero is Technician.'
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SkeleTony
Hired Hero
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posted April 07, 2016 05:12 AM |
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Macron1 said:
SkeleTony said:
Macron1 said:
When Hellhound upgrades to Cerberi, what else it could be if not mutation? IT gets additional heads in his lifetime.
That is not at all "mutation". The Hellhounds are not turning into Cerberi. The structure which produces them is upgraded so that cerberus AS WELL AS Hellhounds) can be produced.
You can upgrade Hellhounds to Cerberi in town or in Fort On The Hill
Correct and that is where we have to remember that this is a video game and about as 'un-simulationist' as a game can get. Therefore we have to ignore a few irrational ideas and play the game for what it is. Ergo, you can magically transform creatures into upgraded versions of themselves at certain structures.
My point remains however that this in no way resembles "mutation" in the context we are discussing here.
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SkeleTony
Hired Hero
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posted April 07, 2016 05:37 AM |
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Dj said:
SkeleTony said:
You guys who keep posting this nonsense are completely ignoring something called CONTEXT. While you may indeed be able to find a listed dictionary usage which you can semantically stretch to fit whatever idea you are proposing, this does not work to make vampires into mutants. Vampires do not "mutate" into bats. They CHANGE INTO BATS through supernatural/magical means as befits their origins in folklore and fantasy mythology.
Mutants are a science fiction archetype and while there is no reason they should not be found in science fantasy (which is the genre of the Forge town. Not "steampunk" or "mad scientist")I think the objection being offered by (I forget his name but it begins with a 'T') is that the brainsuckers and such are inconsistent with the theme of the town and comes off like "We got tired of making new graphics so we just grabbed the most science fiction-ish graphics we had and made a new unit.".
i was not speaking nonsense. what i was trying to say, and apparently no one understood, is that homm lore has its own concept about mutation. it is not stolen from DC/Marvel comics (like torrasque said) and it s not a science fiction archetype, not necessarily. the original devs had their own idea of mutation.
torrasque did not say that though. he compared THIS FORGE town's units, one or two of them specifically as being similar to comic-book science (fiction).
You are committing what is known as the groundless assertion fallacy -aka the 'bald assertion' fallacy. You are merely asserting something as you would like it to be with no grounds given for the assertion. The only things we can say as yet about the devs' intentions are that they intended to do a turn-based strategy game in a mostly typical heroic fantasy setting.
Quote:
about CHANGING into bats, you can also call it SHAPESHFTING since the vampire SHIFTS...
I want to stop you right here as we are in full agreement so far in that you can rightly call the vampiric ability "shapeshifting", as the term only implies (in any real context) to the fantasy/sci-fi/horror/mythological archetype of a being shifting it's shape to assume a new form.
Quote:
... his shape into a bat, but the modern archetype of SHAPESHIFTING is correlated with the druids who SHAPESHIFT into different wild animals.
Now here however, is where you completely fall apart. Where are you getting this idea that the D&D (crappiest RPG ever designed IMO) Druid character class is somehow THE modern archetype of shapeshifters?! Maybe at Gen-Con...
Quote:
so you re not right either. i called it mutation because it can be interchangeable with change, shift, etc. I was trying to prove that the homm universe already knows the concept of mutation and that it is diverse and not borrowed/stolen.
But you completely failed in all of this. You merely offered semantic arguments, twisted in impossible ways to somehow fit your presuppositions. AGAIN, you have to keep context in mind here and probably half or more of the listed usages for the word in the dictionary do not apply in this context. tarresque(spelling?) was only pointing out that units such as "brainsuckers" are more fitting in a Starcraft-like science fiction or sci-fi/horror genre than your typical heroic fantasy setting. I am not saying he is necessarily entirely correct (and I am not saying he isn't either) but I am saying that you guys' counter-arguments are no good at all. Sorry for being harsh here but that is the simple truth.
Quote:
Quote:
the authors of another Forge project had come up with "Cyborgs" (as the Might hero?) and some other nonsense and I tried to inform them about more appropriate hero types like "Technomancer" and "Artificer" and such but they did not seem to understand what I was talking about.
again, im talking to people who have no idea about the lore or the original concept of the forge, but that's my own fault.
the official version of forge's heroes:
'Might hero is Cyborg and Magic Hero is Technician.'
Source?
If true then it would not surprise me as the devs of HoMM 3 made a LOT of goofy decisions in the development of the game and I would level the same criticism at them if what you say is true.
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This thread is pages long: 
