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TheBaron
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posted August 30, 2011 04:15 AM |
bonus applied by Corribus on 31 Aug 2011. |
Edited by TheBaron at 12:09, 30 Aug 2011.
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I find it strange that the same people who think it's fine for a parent to "mete out justice" to their children would be appalled at the concept of a teacher doing the same thing. I would have assumed that a parent should be even more tender and nurturing than a teacher, so why hit?
Also Elodin, although I agree with you about boundaries and consistency, I also agree with Corribus about violence not being necessary to enforce those boundaries. Additionally, you're making a connection between delinquency and spanking, which is blatantly ludicrous when considering the variables that exist in the information age, especially compared to those of our parents' or grandparents' generations. Your parents (like Shyranis' and mine) may have received the cane or switch at school, and they might not be murderers, but just because they're not murderers doesn't mean that they haven't been damaged by those beatings - which are well documented as being traumatic.
Our schools, like our homes, should be places of safety and security. If a person can't be free from harm in their home, how will they ever feel safe at large in broader society? The answer is they won't. There is a real connection between children who have received beatings in private settings and those who carry weapons in public. Remember that just because something isn't true for you, doesn't mean it's not true for someone else.
This ties into what I was going to say about Truancy: The only thing that will bring kids back into schools is a long-term desire to actually be there, and there is no real reason they shouldn't. School should ideally have all the things a young person wants - safety, friendship, mentors, a fun environment and food. The reason they're not coming to school is because they don't believe that those needs are being met, and are seeking them elsewhere. If we want to bring kids back into schools, we have to make sure that is what they are or become. Kids need to want to be there.
We know what best practice is, and it certainly is not the stick nor the cash-carrot. It is especially not Red Army style 'reporting'.
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"My favorite" - Jean-
Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 30, 2011 08:08 AM |
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted August 30, 2011 12:57 PM |
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Baron, there is a vast difference between a child, who is loved, but sometimes 'harshly' disciplined via spanking or other methods and a child who gets beaten by a drunken father every-day for no other reason then being there.
It is unsafe to assume that they both produce the same product.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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TheBaron
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posted August 30, 2011 01:24 PM |
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I totally agree, there is a large difference between the two, however I also worry that we might be instilling a habit that we no longer want or need. If we teach our children from a young age that it is OK for an authority figure to use physical force on someone who is doing something they don't like, we open up a bit of a can of worms that can become a cycle of influence:
"She took my toy so I hit her." 5 year old
"He hit me so I hit him." 10 year old
"He was talking trash about me so I punched him." 15 year old
"She slept with another man so I bashed her." 20 year old
Yes, there is a big leap from a love-tap to domestic violence, but we should be trying our best to eliminate violence from our lives and the lives of those we love. I would say the same about using emotional force as retribution.
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"My favorite" - Jean-
Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg.
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted August 30, 2011 01:27 PM |
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This is just my own opinion but I think ever since they removed the cane at school, made it illegal for smacking children at home, that the youth of today are bloody delinquents. So many of them are stuck up little ****s that think they can get away with anything. I'm thankful, in a way, that I did get smacked when I was a kid otherwise my anger may have gone out of control. It kept me at bay, in some cases. Youth just get away with anything these days and the only way to really get it into their heads is now illegal.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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TheBaron
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posted August 31, 2011 12:57 AM |
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It saddens me how common that view is. I would just like to reiterate that kids are not misbehaving because we're not hitting them enough. There are so many factors in our society that contribute to disconnection and anti-social behaviour. Thinking that caning kids would solve these issues is just plain naive.
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blizzardboy
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posted August 31, 2011 01:20 AM |
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Corporeal punishment is a minor issue. The reason bad experiences from corporeal punishment are well-documented is that corporeal punishment is - by its nature - very easy to document and authenticate. It's absurdly more difficult to authenticate the effects of psychological punishment and to even identify it in the first place. That is the underlying and true reason that corporeal punishment has been banned in schools and in some places at home - because it leaves an easy trail and is thus an easy target for lawmakers and judicially inexpensive compared to the severe headache of trying to track the far larger issue of intangible forms of abuse.
Overall I think it's best that they did away with it, if not for anything else than to protect the teachers and school authorities from legal problems. You don't run into fine-lined issues of what qualifies as okay or not okay when you just outright say that physical punishment isn't an allowed policy, period. And since corporeal punishment is a heated topic for a lot of people, you can guarantee that there would indeed be many long, tedious, obnoxious, and time-consuming disputes.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Elodin
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posted August 31, 2011 01:59 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I would appreciate it if you would not comment about me personally and would instead comment on the issues. You are wrong about me by the way. I in no way have a hive mindset and some of my evangelical brothers would wrongly accuse me of being a heretic.
Nothing you have ever written has suggested to me that I'm wrong about my appraisal of you. If you have appreciations, you can direct them towards the mods in the Feedback side.
Me? I'm past the point of civility with you. Request denied.
Lol!!!! I am a conservative. Conservatives are rugged individualists. It is liberals who have the hive mind in my opinion. Wealth redistribution is about the collective. Welfare is about the collective. Ect. It is not really a stretch to say liberals worship the government. One can see the liberal hive mind in action if one looks at footage of Obama campaigning and the collective liberal masses dumbly intoning "Yes we can!" on que. Liberals want a massive government whereas conservatives want small government.
"Obama's gonna save me. Obama's gonna make sure I have a full tank of gas. Obama's gonna pay my mortgage. Obama's gonna....blablaaablaaaaa."
Clicky
So your claim that I have a hive mind is bizarre to say the least.
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Revelation
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Elodin
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posted August 31, 2011 02:03 AM |
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Quote:
I find it strange that the same people who think it's fine for a parent to "mete out justice" to their children would be appalled at the concept of a teacher doing the same thing.
Actually I sent my kids to a private school. In that shool parents have to agree to either come to school to paddle their children when they need it or allow the administration to paddle the children when needed. The shcool is a very well disciplined school unlike public schools.
No, spanking a child does not cause them to carry weapons. Not disciplining children results in juvenile delinquents.
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Revelation
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TheBaron
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posted August 31, 2011 04:04 AM |
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Edited by TheBaron at 04:05, 31 Aug 2011.
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Quote:
Actually I sent my kids to a private school. In that shool parents have to agree to either come to school to paddle their children when they need it or allow the administration to paddle the children when needed. The shcool is a very well disciplined school unlike public schools.
What an odd school, but hey, if there's a niche....
Quote:
No, spanking a child does not cause them to carry weapons. Not disciplining children results in juvenile delinquents.
You seem to have a very narrow-minded view of what discipline is, and I don't think you really got the point of what I was trying to say. I suppose that's my fault for not articulating myself properly. Let me try again more clearly: Parental physical punishments/punitive actions are associated with both academic and extra-curricular delinquency. In fact, some methods of parental discipline may be reinforcing, if not creating, the very behaviour they were designed to combat.
Interestingly, it has been shown that family activities are a major contributor to youth delinquency (both positively and negatively). This is in strange contrast to how the child believes their parents feel about them, eg. A child is less likely to exhibit delinquent behaviour if they have been participating in positive family activities, even if they do not feel a strong social bond to their parent. In addition, young people are more likely to exhibit delinquency in the reverse situation - where they experience negative family activities, even if they believe that their parents truly love them.
@Blizz. I agree, although in Australia at least they are trying to quantify and reprimand emotional/psychological abuse as well. It's a bit of a grey area, but that's not a surprise given the nature of the beast.
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baklava
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posted August 31, 2011 01:58 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 14:01, 31 Aug 2011.
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I'm thankful, in a way, that I did get smacked when I was a kid otherwise my anger may have gone out of control.
Whoa.
Better not to imagine what it'd look like if it did get out of control, mate.
***
Me, I got smacked once or twice across my diapers as a toddler in order to learn not to electrocute myself, but that was generally it. Excluding a few times when I received a slap from dad later, but that was usually when he was drunk, and thus could hardly be regarded as, shall we say, fair discipline.
No, I considered myself a smart enough kid to be able to understand why I ought not to do something, and was one of those children who appreciated - and rewarded with good behaviour - conversation and explanation over being physically disciplined like a puppy or something (which, on the other hand, almost always caused a counter-effect). There are all sorts of different types of children, of course, and what I said is far from being a universal thing, but I still kinda firmly believe that parents need to instill authority primarily through other means; and it's not like there aren't, in our age, a lot of other methods of punishment, if necessary.
I'll allow that physical action sometimes seems necessary and is the easier way out for the parent, if the child is one of those overly arrogant or hysterical ones, or, well, just not that bright, and it really oversteps its bounds, but I'd still rather go with another way of ensuring discipline, which can have the same effect - just without primitivizing your parental authority like that.
In conclusion - I didn't get hit as a kid except a few times by my drunken dad (and, interestingly enough, the only actual fights I've ever been into were with him, when he tried to "discipline" me like that when I was around 17. And we're actually getting along better than ever since then), I never stole anything, I never murdered anyone, I never hijacked a nuclear submarine and directed it toward a world capital (on purpose), I'm a pacifist, Christian, individualist, freedom-loving anarchist, tradition-loving patriot, and - unlike, for example, William, who got hit as a kid - completely awesome.
Well, I admit, I probably would've been just about this awesome no matter what, but my points still stand.
This is all, of course, from a point of view of someone who's (hopefully) not likely to become a parent in a while, and who's been a kid 'til recently enough.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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angelito
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posted August 31, 2011 02:38 PM |
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If the only way left for you as a parent is to smack / spank your kid in order to discipline it, it would be better you would search other parents for your kid because you are for sure NOT able to raise children!
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TheBaron
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posted August 31, 2011 02:38 PM |
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I never stole anything, I never murdered anyone, I never hijacked a nuclear submarine and directed it toward a world capital
...
and who's been a kid 'til recently enough.
So you've still got still plenty of time son. 
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"My favorite" - Jean-
Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted August 31, 2011 02:53 PM |
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I don't think there is a right way to discipline because children are too different. What works with one child is not certain to work for another. However, rewarding bad behavior seems an insane stretch in the best light.
I think that there is a seldom discussed aspect about discipline and that's the child's "Age". I believe that the oft hated "Rod" is tried and true; IF...used correctly.
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"Do your own research"
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JollyJoker
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posted August 31, 2011 03:44 PM |
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Err... well.
Hit Me
Sorry, Ian, but this is too good.
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Corribus
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The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 31, 2011 04:16 PM |
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I don't think there is a right way to discipline because children are too different. What works with one child is not certain to work for another.
True, but on the other hand - there's always not a single effective way to skin a cat. Even if we suppose that beating the snow out of your kids gives them "boundaries" and teaches them right from wrong, that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to go around it. Violence is usually the resort of the weak, unintelligent or uncreative (or inebriated - which is related typically to all three) when it comes to solving problems. So yeah, while smacking your children may technically keep them in line, there are much better ways to go around it that don't risk some of the other consequences that might occur down the road.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted August 31, 2011 05:04 PM |
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I'm for physical discipline within reason. If you start leaving marks, then it becomes a problem. It should never be the first reaction to anything. I was paddled as a child for egregious offenses and I think I turned out well.
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...well, aside from the whole "lawyer" thing.
If you ever find yourself in front of a judge in a child custody action, be forewarned; judges do not like physical discipline. It is considered medieval and barbaric by many. Time-outs and groundings are preferred.
As to the topic at hand, I don't think ratting out fellow classmates for money being a very effective solution. I could see the proposal being abused pretty easily actually.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Doomforge
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posted August 31, 2011 05:16 PM |
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Conservatives are rugged individualists.
Yup, following what your parents or nation considers good is totally rebel.
oh wait...
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markkur
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posted August 31, 2011 05:42 PM |
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Quote:
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I don't think there is a right way to discipline because children are too different. What works with one child is not certain to work for another.
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True, but on the other hand - there's always not a single effective way to skin a cat.
Hmmm, sounds like you're saying what I did?
Quote:
Even if we suppose that beating the snow out of your kids gives them "boundaries" and teaches them right from wrong, that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to go around it. Violence is usually the resort of the weak, unintelligent or uncreative (or inebriated - which is related typically to all three) when it comes to solving problems.
Most here seem to be living in a different world that where I've tred. I guess there are zero kids that exist anywhere, that will not give a flip about your nice, civilized methods?
As I said some things will work but not for every kid.
Has no one heard of the "preachers son"? Good grief I've known them and they could have the sweetest parents that I would have loved to have and yet their boy was a bat outta hell. Or take it the other way; mean and hateful parents that end up with sweet and considerate kids. Parents are not holding all the cards... in any direction.
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"Do your own research"
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 31, 2011 11:21 PM |
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@markkur
Quote:
Hmmm, sounds like you're saying what I did?
Not exactly. You were referring to the fact that different children are different, and therefore different strategies may be called for. I'm saying that even for a single child, there's likely no "one right way". Sure, beating your child might "work" when it comes to establishing boundaries, but what the heck does "work" mean anyway?
In addition, I'll point out (not for you, necessarily, but in response to other people) the fallacy of claiming that because your parents beat you and you didn't grow up to be a mass-murderer somehow means that beating your children is a good way to raise children. That's the same as claiming that because good ol' Uncle Rupert smoked seven packs of cigs a day and lived to be 94 means that smoking is good for you.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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