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| Thread: Truancy |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV |
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JollyJoker
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posted September 02, 2011 02:24 PM |
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I mean that both parents are working.
Fauch, you are just dreaming about things that would need a complete change of the whole society. There is nothing more useless than complaining about something with the reasoning that it could be so and so, when that simply needs a completely different society.
All these complaints about school, I repeat that, are no excuse not to go. No one is stopping you from adding to your knowledge in your spare time, which is easy enough nowadays, if school is unsatisfactory.
Also, you don't even know whether it would be better - you are just assuming that. A lot of people WANT TO WORK. And not because they want the money. They like the challenge of the job, the colleagues, the talk, getting people to know, having something to do, putting abilities to good use. Others like to travel, see other countries, learn different languages.
Lastly, I see that you didn't answer to the post before that. What's the matter? Needing back-up for following a different path?
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markkur
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posted September 02, 2011 05:21 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 17:22, 02 Sep 2011.
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@JJ
About that non-existant middle-ground you referred to; I call it no-man's-land because one thing I've noticed about most any argument within society these days; is severe polarization. Often, there are two extreme views and zero room to meet on common ground. Maybe a college debating course should be mandatory for all humans.
@All
I see three things wrong in the truancy bit. Parents, Schools and the Youth that skip school.
Parents, because too often both are working to stay middle-class, no one is minding the Home and they've not worked that out.
Schools, because they can be very different when it comes to quality of Education. I had the following experience. I was a Junior in high-school, living on my own and had a full-time evening job. Because money was tight, I had to move back in to the city and go back to the school that I had left a couple of years earlier when I transferred to the surburban school.
I ended up quitting school and instead of finishing, immediately getting a G.E.D. , because I could not survive more than a couple of months of; Working, bus-travel, getting a few hours of sleep, bus-travel and then sitting in a classroom that was far behind the education I had received the previous two years.
When it comes to the Public Schools funded by taxpayers,imo. they should be the same product, to produce the same products. As it is now, some schools are left far behind. Like in Missouri, when they decided to strip the rural kids of modern educational tools for many years, in a mad-effort to keep the urban kids...in-school.
The third thing is too often the young-person. Too many view Education as some sort of nasty vegetable they don't want to eat, which of course is horse-radish. I have learned more since leaving school. A real library is my favorite entertainment destination. I am still reading books and watching Historical and Documentary programs to this day.
We never stop learning. Somehow that needs to be taught (Homes & Schools)and understood as early in the educational process as possible. Then maybe truancy would become the dead-end it is RL within the young minds as well. That old adage' "when you stop growing; you begin to die" would carry too much truth.
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Fauch
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posted September 02, 2011 07:50 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 19:50, 02 Sep 2011.
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Quote:
I have learned more since leaving school. A real library is my favorite entertainment destination. I am still reading books and watching Historical and Documentary programs to this day.
yes. you learn a lot in school too, but most of the time you don't really care about what you learn and forget it as soon as exams are over.
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markkur
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posted September 02, 2011 08:58 PM |
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Yes, if only we could have the vision of an adult when we are kids.
<imo> One of the best learning tools in existance is the "passionate-Teacher". My History teacher ( I wish I could remember his name) is the man who built a life-time fire under my butt about the "world". He made me want to be in class with his descriptive story-telling etc.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted September 04, 2011 01:41 AM |
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All you have to do really is set up a barbed wire fence parameter around each-and-every school (state schools), any child that is delivered onto the premises is monitored and released at stated time.
All children who do not attend on a regular basis will be extensively investigated. If the parents are unable to get things under-control then the government will take said child under their wing and place them in the care of professionals.
Not a fan of compulsory education, but if your going to have it, do it right. By that I mean that the children are bound by law to be kept in school, hence the fence, I've seen many just wonder off the premises with nobody to stop them. 
My primary school had a lovely electronic fence around it with the reception being the only exit, (before 'home time' that is), while my secondary school anyone could just wonder in or out  .
"The opportunity breeds the thief"
Some children over-come their fear of punishment or have no punishment repercussions, the sense of freedom is what drives them. I'm not blind to the fact that they waste this 'freedom', but still... 
I've been raised to do things that are a must and I have, but that doesn't mean that I resent those who do no have the strength to do the same.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Fauch
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posted September 04, 2011 02:07 AM |
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Quote:
All children who do not attend on a regular basis will be extensively investigated. If the parents are unable to get things under-control then the government will take said child under their wing and place them in the care of professionals.
wow seriously? like someone following them?
and taking children off their family? not sure it is a good idea
Quote:
"The opportunity breeds the thief" -Anyone would steal, given a chance to do so without being punished.
if it isn't punished, is it still a theft? I suppose you meant not punished by the law?
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted September 04, 2011 02:26 AM |
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Quote:
if it isn't punished, is it still a theft? I suppose you meant not punished by the law?
It is, but truancy is a crime too, if children are presented with an opportunity they will take it. In the case of truancy it is only some that will take it (to others there is no choice in the matter and they accept it). Also by punishment I also meant 'family' punishment as-well. to avoid confusion with previous discussion, I don't necessarily mean physical punishment .
As for taking children away from the family, they're breaking the law, obviously slack will be cut, but parents must be made to realise that it is against the law, and if their children break the law, there will be repercussions.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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del_diablo
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posted September 04, 2011 01:21 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
All children who do not attend on a regular basis will be extensively investigated. If the parents are unable to get things under-control then the government will take said child under their wing and place them in the care of professionals.
wow seriously? like someone following them?
and taking children off their family? not sure it is a good idea
Look at it this way:
1. Why are they not attending?
2. Why are the parents not enforcing disiplin to get them to go to school?
3. Is their childrens lack of going to school a cry for attention due somewhat hidden child abuse?
4. Is the problem that the schools way of educating really really sucks?
5. Is the problem that the children is being bullied, and the administration ignores it?
If a proper investigation IS done, and there is a proper lack of common sense and disiplin at the parents end, they should be able to lose the custoduity of their children if its severe enough.
Not much different from what should have been the situation today, except that there is no way of getting a investigetion started without whatever agency in charge attempting to blackmail the parents down into oblivion.
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Fauch
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posted September 04, 2011 03:10 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 15:11, 04 Sep 2011.
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well, it's not what I understood from Tsar-Ivor message. It sounded more like the child is guilty anyway, and you get someone to follow him until he can gather enough elements to make up proofs against him.
I mean, he talks about them like they are prisonners. if a prisonner escapes, you aren't going to wonder if it is because he was bullied in prison for example...
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted September 04, 2011 07:26 PM |
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I'm just looking at it as it is, compulsory education is the law, you don't attend it's a crime, ergo I agree the law makes children appear as prisoners, the reason they haven't established my suggestion (the fence) is because that would consolidate the assumption that school is just a gilded prison regardless of intentions.
I've got no beef with having an education, but regardless how they go about doing it leaves a horrible taste in my mouth, it's something I cannot condone
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mvassilev
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posted September 05, 2011 07:27 AM |
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Quote:
"The opportunity breeds the thief" -Anyone would steal, given a chance to do so without being punished.
Do you really believe this? Some people value their integrity more than anything they could possibly gain from theft.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted September 05, 2011 11:14 AM |
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They're both quotes  , ones the actual quote the other the definition, but personally I don't believe in extremes, all will do this if.... all will do that if....but the quote IMHO helped convey my point, regardless of it's flaws. .
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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del_diablo
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posted September 05, 2011 07:27 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
"The opportunity breeds the thief" -Anyone would steal, given a chance to do so without being punished.
Do you really believe this? Some people value their integrity more than anything they could possibly gain from theft.
The store is giving out free bread samples, do you take the bread?
Anybody would steal, providing there is no perceived consequences. The only reasons "theif" are against stealing is because it has a downside if they are caught.
Steal a few times without getting caugth, and your perception of the downside will start to disappere, and then you are suddenly behaving around stolen bread like freebe gifted bread.
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mvassilev
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posted September 05, 2011 10:00 PM |
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There's a difference between taking something that's offered for free and stealing. In the first case, the other party is not being harmed, as they're offering it of their own free will, and in the second, they are because you're taking it against their will.
And no, not everyone will steal if they can. It's quite possible for there not be any consequences and for someone to not want to steal. If you steal, you pay a price even if you don't get caught - a loss of virtue and integrity.
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Fauch
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posted September 05, 2011 10:02 PM |
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and that's mvass saying it 
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JollyJoker
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posted September 05, 2011 10:29 PM |
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Yeah, I can't believe that either. "Virtue and integrity". Completely ficticious.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted August 30, 2012 03:21 PM |
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I found something interesting (I haven't been tot his thread in a while, so whether this was a finding that already been shared then I apologize)
I've asked many people and I too feel the same, that compulsory education made them feel 'shackled' regardless of their income or disposition towards school subjects/teachers. Though the sensitive individuals are the ones who decide to 'fight' this via truancy, most of the time they don't know why themselves.
In collage the fact that you aren't obligated to attend, actually makes people want to attend, because they are 'free'. Being forced to attend will not stop people who detest school and will truant regardless, but still has a negative psychological impact on everyone else.
Which brings me to something else, government forcing this obligation upon parents and children under the threat of persecution. Who's responsible for a child and his/her education, the government or the parent(s)?
Not being obligated to attend basic education will reduce the amount of truants, why? Because children don't know why they hate school, boring, sucks et cetera, when infact the feeling of being in prison ignites something within children and they feel the need to fight it.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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OhforfSake
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posted September 07, 2012 03:23 PM |
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I don't think neither of the programs will help against truancy in a way I'd think solve the essential problem of truancy. However they'll probably make it look like the essential problem has been solved. Therefore I find both suggested solutions to be unethical.
By the essential problem, I mean getting a child to want to go to school, by his own free wil.
In my view, when the child don't want to go to school, it's either because something has higher priority or because school has lower priority than everything else. Maybe both.
If the child finds something of higher priority than school, but can't find time for both things, then I'd say it's the parents fault, mostly because this is something which has to happen before school even starts.
If school simply has lower priority than everything else, then I believe it's the school's fault for not being able to make the subjects interesting, or not being able to stop bullying, etc.
It might be difficult to make subjects sufficient interesting, competing with computer games, tv-shows, playing sports, etc. However it surely isn't impossible, because the things you learn in school is usually related to real life things which is usually found more interesting than school. In other words, attending school should be what you enjoy, merely in a way which evolves your own way to enjoy these activities.
I myself had a high truancy during middle school. I disliked going to school because of two things.
First of all, I generally started going to institutions, i.e. kindergarden, school, etc., before I was mentally ready. I have always found comfort in everything being as it usually is, and I never got the chance to accept school as part of the norm. Therefore, I always loathed the idea of being forced to go to school.
However that was not the main issue. The main issue during middle school was the bullying. Which meant I'd often pretend to be sick, to avoid school. I never did complain though.
This sadly gave me some rather unfortunate habits.
Therefore, I don't think truancy should be illegal. Not only regarding schools which can't manage to keep order among the students, but mainly because if a student isn't ready for school, it's slavery to force him. It's important to get the student to decide to go to school by himself, and always allow for seeing how things are without school. Many of my former classmates loathed school so much when they ended middle school that they immediatedly got a job and dropped future schooling. I am certain this would not have been the case, had they choosen to go to school, in stead of being forced.
You might argue that just missing a single year of school might mean not learning the essential stuff school teaches you. But in reality, what you learn in middle school is something in principle the parents could teach the child before they even start at school. What costs society is not truancy, it's the way truancy is handled. It's when children are seen as property and forced into living a way they did not choose and they do not believe they want. This leads to future generations where a certain percentage will always be of 'lower class'.
Quote:
The store is giving out free bread samples, do you take the bread?
No. Not even if you'd be paying me for accepting the free samples.
Quote:
Not being obligated to attend basic education will reduce the amount of truants, why? Because children don't know why they hate school, boring, sucks et cetera, when infact the feeling of being in prison ignites something within children and they feel the need to fight it.
That's the way I see it too, but I don't think it alone will eliminate truancy. It'll however remove the whole idea of 'school sucks' among regular students in a non-sucky school, because they'd want to attend.
There'll still be a certain percentage who'd however not find school sufficient interesting, or have problems with the other students of social or psychological character.
What I think would really solve a lot of things would be to change the entire schooling system. School today, as I see it, focuses way to much on being an institution you can dump your kids while you're at work, or getting some quiet time. School should not be an escape from the life you've choosen. It should be about the children, and therefore it should be much more flexible.
School is an opportunity for everyone to get what they want, which is the first step of achieving a happy and fulfilling life. Therefore it seems ridicolous when school lacks so much flexibility it in stead becomes a place where kids can sit from 8-15, no matter if they pay attention or not, no matter if they're ready or not, no matter where they personally are on the educational level.
Get rid of this, and I'm certain truancy will only happen due to diseases, etc.
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