|
|
DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
|
posted July 13, 2012 08:23 AM |
|
|
I am not sure about what you say about Destiny....
I tested it...
When I got Destiny I -> my luck stat was 5
When I got Destiny II -> my luck stat changed to 10
This is an extra 5 luck stat points which equates to Destiny II adding +5 luck.....
I personally am loving the game now, with the town screens, fort screens, luck better, Inferno better, necro nerfed, new adventure pack I want to get stuck into....
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted July 13, 2012 08:57 AM |
|
|
I'll have to test luck myself, sounds like the first level gives 5 instead of 3. I'm all for that ^^
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
jhb
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 13, 2012 09:58 AM |
|
Edited by jhb at 10:49, 13 Jul 2012.
|
Quote:
That they mean the total bonus. So for Destiny's Chosen III, you get +8 luck total. So the relative bonus you get is +3 for the third skill point you spend.
Of course, that doesn't really solve anything. Yes, Destiny's Chosen is less of a terrible skill now, but so what? It's still not actually good. You only buy passives because even in the longest battle there's no real point in even knowing more than 8 active skills or so and you get double digits worth of skill points.
The changes don't seem to address the real core issues, which are that the game is boring. You can always take the same skills in the same order, so once you find a build that works for you that can be repeated for credit indefinitely. Changing skill values aren't going to change that issue, even if the changes are extreme enough to cause a one-time change in build priority. The armies are monotonous: you get seven unit slots and all of them have to come from your faction and your faction produces 7 units. Fiddling with the numbers of the units isn't going to address the issue that your late game army always looks exactly the same. You might want Furies or Marksmen more or less, but you're still going to have them in your army if you're playing Stronghold or Haven respectively.
Unless and until they shake up the core assumptions of the game, it's still going to based on the same horrible design. And it's still going to be a repetitive mess.
wow  I think elvin forgot to update the one above 
§ rage increased to 30 (from 5)
§ love for developers reduced to -5 (from 1)
§ DRM Resistance reduced to 0 (from 1)
§ 'shake up the core' passive ability added
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 13, 2012 11:20 AM |
|
|
Quote:
The changes don't seem to address the real core issues, which are that the game is boring. You can always take the same skills in the same order, so once you find a build that works for you that can be repeated for credit indefinitely. Changing skill values aren't going to change that issue, even if the changes are extreme enough to cause a one-time change in build priority. The armies are monotonous: you get seven unit slots and all of them have to come from your faction and your faction produces 7 units. Fiddling with the numbers of the units isn't going to address the issue that your late game army always looks exactly the same. You might want Furies or Marksmen more or less, but you're still going to have them in your army if you're playing Stronghold or Haven respectively.
Unless and until they shake up the core assumptions of the game, it's still going to based on the same horrible design. And it's still going to be a repetitive mess.
Let me ask you a simple question: are you really expecting a complete redesign of the game coming with a patch?
If you answer, "YES!", well, then you probably expect to see Santa coming through the chimney next Xmas.
If you answer, "NO!", well, why do you post this nonsense, that says, basically, what a surprise, but after the patch Heroes 6 is still Heroes 6?
I mean, what DID you expect? Heroes 7?
|
|
DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
|
|
posted July 13, 2012 12:24 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I'll have to test luck myself, sounds like the first level gives 5 instead of 3. I'm all for that ^^
No first level luck does give +3 (cos started with +2), then second level luck gives +5.....
|
|
hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
|
|
posted July 13, 2012 11:52 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Let me ask you a simple question: are you really expecting a complete redesign of the game coming with a patch?
If you answer, "YES!", well, then you probably expect to see Santa coming through the chimney next Xmas.
If you answer, "NO!", well, why do you post this nonsense, that says, basically, what a surprise, but after the patch Heroes 6 is still Heroes 6?
I mean, what DID you expect? Heroes 7?
There are currently 5 late game armies. That is pathetic. If they introduced one alternate recruitable neutral creature (or one alternate recruitable creature for each faction), there would be forty late game armies. Shaking things up in such a way that there would be actual depth in army design isn't even difficult.
The core math is that Destiny sucks. It's just not as good as attack power. Contrast this to the obvious comparison of King's Bounty, where Crit Chance and Attack Power have a complex relationship where which is better has to do with how much Attack you have versus how much Defense your target has, and thus you can make valid strategies out of boosting either one that will play differently and do well in different situations. Now, overhauling the core math so that Luck and Attack power aren't directly comparable across all situations (thus giving the solid answer that Luck is underpowered) may seem like it would be really hard - we're talking about overhauling one of the core mechanics of the game. But really, that isn't hard at all, because we're talking about a simple math equation in a computer program that takes in and spits out integers. You could design a new math formula in an afternoon with a graphing calculator and you could put it into the program in 30 seconds with a Find-n-Replace.
The reality that Heroes VI is incredibly, horrendously, unforgivably poorly designed shouldn't be news at this point. But the second reality that fixing those terrible design decisions actually isn't very hard and nonetheless hasn't been done despite the fact that the game was released for real money (in a totally unfinished and embarrassingly buggy state) almost a year ago should also be setting in.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 12:08 AM |
|
|
|
Yeah, well, sure, summing this up, it's all really easy to make H6 the game of your dreams, but they are just too limited. Right.
|
|
hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 07:11 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Yeah, well, sure, summing this up, it's all really easy to make H6 the game of your dreams, but they are just too limited. Right.
It's a computer game. There are hard problems and there are easy problems. Changing a number here and there is easy, changing the way graphics and sounds and user interfaces work is hard. If sounds are out of sync or the graphics are displaying with improper amounts of transparency, I wouldn't even begin to know how to fix it. But simple design issues are still simple to fix.
The latest patch fiddles with a lot of numbers, but it still doesn't fiddle with any of the numbers that actually matter for purposes of giving meaningful player choice. Having attack or defense values or even weekly growth values for a Vampire Lord go up or down may change how good it is, but you're still going to build them if you're a Necro Hero and you're still not going to build them if you are a Haven Hero. Similarly, while the attack and defense values may be different, that doesn't create any breakpoints anywhere for when you want to invest in attack versus destiny - attack is still simply demonstrably superior.
The damage equation leaves your attack and their defense unrelated. That is, it doesn't make any difference whether their Defense is 0 or 35, a boost to your attack increases damage output by the same amount. The defense stats might as well not exist - enemies with higher defenses could just have more hit points and it would work out the same. This is a problem that, for example, Heroes 3 did not have. And fixing it is just putting in a new math formula, which is one of the easiest things in computer programming. It would require the change of less actual numbers than the latest patch did.
The game is still incomplete and still boring because it provides insufficient real choice to the player.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 10:44 AM |
|
|
I'm not really digging, what you want. We never had any choice of whether to invest in attack or defense (destiny is new as a primary stat). In previous game versions (except 4), primary stats were gained probability based (now the level-up ladder is fixed and always the same, without random variation).
So - no player choice in that department, only by picking the hero type, and that's the same as it ever was.
And there IS of course the same attack defense relation than ever - except that all creatures have attack 0 now. It doesn't matter whether you first subtract defense from attack and then compute damage, or whether you first compute damage and then subtract resistance, it's just a matter of the formula, whether the result will be the same or not.
But even in 3, if you have attack and defense at 10 each, damage is 100%. If you'd first apply attack, up to 150%, then to that defense, 75%, you end at 112.5%. For 20 the result would be the same: 100%. For 30, however, we'd be at 75&, even though defense was capped at 30%.
I don't see, though, where PLAYER CHOICE plays a role here. The main problem with HoMM 6 formula is, that it's unintuitive and not easy to apply.
What I also don't understand is this, "you just have to change a mathematic formula". Do you really think that you can change the basic formulae of how attack and defense boni are computed and leave everything else the way it is? Don't you think that would have serious repercussions on how creatures and abilities relate to each other? Don't you think, there would be balance changes necessary?
So for me, a change of that formula would change nothing in principle, but it would make a complete rebalancing necessary. Not to mention the fact that changing basic "core game" stuff doesn't seem to be all that easy. If you don't believe me, ask Elvin about how many different suggestions we made concerning Destiny - but they would have all needed a code change, which is a last ressort because the dangers and risks would seem to be quite high.
That made rebalancing the game a bit awkward in many respects - but it would certainly not have helped, when Destiny got a 100% fix, that would have introduced a hundred new bugs.
|
|
lithium_111
Hired Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 12:25 PM |
|
|
Can someone tell me why the hell they boosted cyclops health by 15 ?
with health ability and resilliance boosted good luck taking that dude down.
its ridiculous, im starting to think devs are stronghold fanboys ..
|
|
MeanMan
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 12:54 PM |
|
|
stronghold fanboys? kinda no. imo stronghold still needs a slight buff.
the +15 hp for the cyclop are appropriate imo. they are supposed to be tanks after all.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 01:12 PM |
|
|
For a slight buff of Stronghold I direct your attention to the Crushers - have a look at their numbers...
Personally I think they went "a Bridge too far" with Dogs and Crushers.
|
|
MeanMan
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 01:20 PM |
|
Edited by MeanMan at 13:21, 14 Jul 2012.
|
yes i'm aware. i don't know what it is, but i think stronghold needs something. maybe a slight buff to the morale of their units should do it. this would also fit with the lore (orcs being fighting obsessed).
i'm happy with dogs now. only crushers are slightly over the top. maybe changing their growth from 10 to 9 and the damage back to 4-8 would do the trick. one has to remember crushers can attack twice each turn.
|
|
lithium_111
Hired Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 01:32 PM |
|
|
stronghold needs a slight buff? Ah dude plz .. i know cyclops r supposed to be tanks but u think they need those 15? they have 350 hp already now thats tankin lol
I think pit lord should join the 300 club like those tough champions coz he cant go toe to toe with angel, fate spinner or cyclops. Kirin is fine coz of their damn growth.
Seriously pit lords needs survivability like those 340-ish champions, make him have somethin like 310
|
|
hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 04:29 PM |
|
|
Lithium:Quote:
stronghold needs a slight buff?
Yes. It's the fourth best faction and there are only five factions. That being said, hit points and defense aren't really different in Heroes VI. Since Defense takes a flat percentage off the incoming damage that does not change based on the attack value of the attacker, it is literally identical to having a percentage more hit points.
Having 15 extra hit points is just like taking 4.1% less damage. And that in turn is exactly like increasing their Defense-derived damage reduction by 2.3%, which is pretty much the same as the Enraged Cyclops going from Defense 26 to Defense 28. How much of a cow would you be throwing about increasing the Cyclops Might and Magic Defense by two?
Jolly Joker
Quote:
And there IS of course the same attack defense relation than ever - except that all creatures have attack 0 now. It doesn't matter whether you first subtract defense from attack and then compute damage, or whether you first compute damage and then subtract resistance, it's just a matter of the formula, whether the result will be the same or not.
This is completely mathematically wrong. In Heroes 3 (and most other games in the series), the calculation is some variant on:
X * 1+(A - D)*N
Where X is base damage, A is attack skill, D is defense skill of the target, and N is the weight of attack skill differences (0.1 in Heroes 2, 0.05 in Heroes 3). Also, that modifier tended to have a cap, and if "A - D" was negative, N was halved. This means that there is a range in which attack skill matters, and specific ranges in which attack skill matters a lot more (the more the target has more Defense than you have Attack, the more of a benefit you receive from having +1 Attack).
In Heroes VI, they are independent variables. There are no break points, more defense always reduces damage by the same amount and more attack increases your relative damage by the same amount no matter what you're attacking. This is because in Heroes 3 the Attack and Defense were combined to generate a single multiplier based on the difference between them, but in Heroes VI they are separate multipliers that are applied in sequence.
As with the Cyclops example above, it does not matter whether the target has more defense or proportionately more hit points, because the "pre-defense damage" required to kill them is the same in either case. Similarly, doing more base damage is not different than just having a higher Attack value.
Quote:
But even in 3, if you have attack and defense at 10 each, damage is 100%. If you'd first apply attack, up to 150%, then to that defense, 75%, you end at 112.5%. For 20 the result would be the same: 100%. For 30, however, we'd be at 75&, even though defense was capped at 30%.
That's not how it works though. In Heroes 3, if you have Attack 10 and they have Defense 10, then you do 100% damage because "A - D" is zero. If you have Attack 10 and they have Defense 5, you do 125% damage. If you have Attack 5 and they have Defense 10, you do 87.5% damage.
Quote:
What I also don't understand is this, "you just have to change a mathematic formula". Do you really think that you can change the basic formulae of how attack and defense boni are computed and leave everything else the way it is? Don't you think that would have serious repercussions on how creatures and abilities relate to each other? Don't you think, there would be balance changes necessary?
The plural of "bonus" is "bonuses". "Boni" is not a word. But the point you're not getting is that the game already isn't balanced. So really who cares if making a damage calculation that wasn't horrible kicked you back to square one on the balance issue? You know what's an insurmountable balance problem? Right now having +20 Attack is larger than having +infinity to Destiny. There is nothing you can do to the creature numbers or the skill numbers or the item numbers that can fix that. You need to change the underlying math so that it is possible for Destiny to not be horrible.
|
|
Habitus
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 05:06 PM |
|
|
|
Awhile since I checked, but 1 Destiny = 1 Luck or 1% chance to do 50% damage right?
|
|
hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 05:22 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Awhile since I checked, but 1 Destiny = 1 Luck or 1% chance to do 50% damage right?
Yes. Well, +50% damage, but I knew what you meant.
This means that if your Attack bonuses are providing more than a 50% increase in damage, that your Attack bonuses are better than any amount of Destiny you could theoretically have. And that threshold is Attack 18. 18 points of Attack is worth +51% damage, and that's more than bringing your Destiny from zero to one hundred.
Contrast with, for example, King's Bounty: where a Critical maximizes damage and also increases damage by 50%, which for a creature like a Forest Sprite that does highly random damage (1-3 each), it more than doubles expected damage output, while for creatures with very small differences in expected damage (or even pure constant damage like for the droids) it does closer to a +50% deal. This makes crit fishing more or less relatively valuable depending on your army makeup, and in any case makes large crit bonuses competitive with large attack bonuses.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 07:47 PM |
|
|
You failed to mention that you never was able to influence your attack/defense values.
Which means, what you write has no bearing. It doesn't matter how it was in H3 and how it is now, since in both games you will have to accept the stats you get. With 6 it doesn't matter.
AND THAT IS CORRECT, cause you CANNOT pick, whether you take attack or defense - your heroes just get it, so it's fine that attack isn't better.
Now, we know that Destiny is worse than attack or defense. That's why the Inferno guy starts with high Luck creatures now. It doesn't make Luck any better, but it seems you are unable to grasp the problem that the game mechanics are courtesy of BLACK HOLE, while it's LIMBIC now that is supposed to pull the cart out of the mire.
Oh, and BONUS, whether you like it or not, is a LATIN word, and in LATIN the plural is BONI.
Now go and tick off your nanny, please.
|
|
Habitus
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 07:52 PM |
|
Edited by Habitus at 19:54, 14 Jul 2012.
|
Going from 17 Attack to 18 Attack is only a 2.027% increase in damage (1.48 of base to 1.51 of base)
Of course its takes around 400 Attack before it decrease to 1 Attack = 0.5% increase at 0 Luck, Since Attack and Luck actually scale with each other so higher than 0 makes it an even higher Attack before this is reached. Of course Luck affects both Damage types, 0 Luck is impossible and various of things are affect by Attack (and for Inferno Luck). Plus they have started scaling Destiny so you actually get more points of it for the same cost (Points from level) as Might/Magic Power. If i get chance I'll whip up a quick spreadsheet using 1 week of creatures + Heroes base 30 stats (for both types) for each faction and see how much is gained from the first levels of Destiny/Might/Magic to give an idea of how far behind Destiny really is.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted July 14, 2012 07:58 PM |
|
|
I don't like the tone some of your have been using here lately. That goes for both newcomers and old members. I don't really care who started it, but please stop biting each others heads off at every chance you get.
Oh, and for the record, in english the plural form of bonus is bonuses. 
____________
What will happen now?
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
