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odium
Known Hero
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posted June 29, 2012 10:01 PM |
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Regarding the skill system.
I would like to discuss about two concepts which IMO are important to the development of an improved skill system:
-making a system with all skills of equal power is unfeasible: This is the problem the H6 has. In theory the shallow skill tree will work with skills that are perfectly balanced. When you have around 100 skills this is weird to try. Instead skills should be carefully layered like in the rich skill tree of H5. The layer approach comes with two important benefits: makes the player chose between uber skills and also makes the player chose between starting a new path of an uber skill or complement with secondary skills the uber skill the he has already.
-randomness is not required for replayability:
This is the problem H5 skill tree has. In good strategic games you should have something like rock-paper-scissor. Always there should exist a counter to your choice in the same way there should always exist a counter to your opponent's choice. This will make you not choose the same template for your hero but you will modify your picks according to the intel you have about your opponent (in and out the current game). Randomness is a work-around when you don't have a rock-paper-scissor type of balance and there is only one template for your hero with marginal modifications according to the context.
H6 skill tree is bad. Really bad as concept. They should start from H5 skill tree as the core but with major modifications: replace randomness with more paths.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 09:55 AM |
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Quote:
Regarding the skill system.
-making a system with all skills of equal power is unfeasible: This is the problem the H6 has. In theory the shallow skill tree will work with skills that are perfectly balanced. When you have around 100 skills this is weird to try. Instead skills should be carefully layered like in the rich skill tree of H5. The layer approach comes with two important benefits: makes the player chose between uber skills and also makes the player chose between starting a new path of an uber skill or complement with secondary skills the uber skill the he has already.
That's a complete misconception of what the word "balanced" means, and it's easy to explain. Take a single target damage spell, and take an area spell.
It's fairly obvious that they are n ot equal. There MUST be situations in which you will prefer one over the other and vice versa. Which is EXACTLY, what is meant with balanced. They are unbalanced if Fire Bolt will do 500 damage against a target and at the same time Fireball will be more difficult to get, cost more mana and will do 350 damage at the centre target and 175 to the adjacent squares, because the situations where Fireball will be really that much better than the higher mana suggests are too few.
So that's BALANCED. It does NOT mean that you can use every ability every time.
Generally the skill tree of H6 is underrated. The reason here is, that people don't dig the fact that PASSIVE abilities are so much better than active ones, so that you need passive abilities to be toned down a lot. Considering cooldown times and charges you might say that you will never be able to use more than, say, 10 active abilities, the rest has to be passive.
Now, BALANCE means, that a hero who exclusively picks PASSIVE abilities except Pressed Attack and relies on Hero attack as hero action (instead of activating abilities), must not be unbeatable, which means that EITHER passive abilities must be quite modest OR active abilities must be overwhelming.
Which is what people have to understand. Picking an underwhelming thing like Toughness is not much fun, but in the long run, if all those passives were better, the actives were useless.
So they ARE layered in a way already. It just stops to be fun when the gain seems insignificant. Which is the problem of the concept.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 11:20 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 11:20, 30 Jun 2012.
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Passives might not need to be stronger, but they need to be more interesting and fun choices to pick.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 11:32 AM |
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That's what "we" said from the start, "we" being the VIPs here, and unanimously. We were all pushing for more situational/specific INTERESTING stuff - good example: Archery II - where you get a significant bonus in very specific situations that you may be even able to PLAY for, instead of an insignificant bonus all the time.
The main problems were a) to find those abilities (admittedly not MUCH of a problem since we flooded them with suggestions), b) to code those abilities and of course c) to balance them against each other and not make them TOO powerful.
Considering that the game was overdue anyway the underlying problem of the game is, that there were too many too massive changes for the available budget and time frame.
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odium
Known Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 11:53 AM |
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Quote:
That's a complete misconception of what the word "balanced" means, and it's easy to explain. Take a single target damage spell, and take an area spell.
It's fairly obvious that they are n ot equal. There MUST be situations in which you will prefer one over the other and vice versa. Which is EXACTLY, what is meant with balanced.
In my opinion what you said is wrong. It's not enough that there are situations when a spell is a better than the other and vice versa, but the number of situations should also be fairly equal: a game is not balanced when 90% of the situations skill1 is better to choose than skill2. In any case I believe that you did not understand the spirit of the idea I tried to express. I am not saying that a system like H6 is impossible to make in theory but IN PRACTICE it is very very hard to achieve (if not close to impossible). Because you do not compare only 2 skills you have 100 skills to compare and balance.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 12:05 PM |
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Quote:
In my opinion what you said is wrong. It's not enough that there are situations when a spell is a better than the other and vice versa, but the number of situations should also be fairly equal: a game is not balanced when 90% of the situations skill1 is better to choose than skill2. In any case I believe that you did not understand the spirit of the idea I tried to express...
Quote:
They are unbalanced ... because the situations where Fireball will be really that much better than the higher mana suggests are too few.
It's pretty interesting that I'm wrong when I said exactly what you suddenly have to add.
Also it seems that YOU didn't understand what I wanted to express: that I was answering the flat "H6 skill tree is really bad." It wouldn't have had to be that way.
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odium
Known Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 12:36 PM |
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Ok, I am not going to answer punctually to your latest reply since this will not be constructive. I am happy to see that you are not against the principle I expressed (and you quoted in your first reply) but to the fact that you don't find H6 skill tree principle to be bad (which you did not quote in your reply). This is your opinion and I respect it, even though it is different than mine.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 01:39 PM |
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Right. Let's repeat the important thing.
The main difference between Heroes V and Heroes VI skill trees is the fact that VI MIXES active and passive skills while V skills are ALL passive (and different from Magic, Warcries and Runes).
NATURALLY passive skills or perks or abilities are WAY better than active ones, because you basically start a battle with all your passive skills being active (or you get advantages on the adventure map).
Additionally there is the problem that there is a default active hero ability - the hero sttack.
That IN TURN means that - as a rule of thumb - you should pick two passive skills for every active one you pick, since you cannot activate so many abilities any way.
Here is the first fatal error of the skill tree: there are way too many active abilities and not enough passive ones: having a gazillion spells is useless, because you don't need so many.
If you look at H5, there are 40 (later 50) spells, 6 War Cries and 6 Runes or so as active stuff - but DOUBLE as much passives.
I could add a lot more, but suffice it to say, that in my opinion a free-to-pick skill tree had been possible alright - but they simply screwed things up in a very unimaginative way.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 02:12 PM |
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Edited by jhb at 15:11, 30 Jun 2012.
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Quote:
Right. Let's repeat the important thing.
The main difference between Heroes V and Heroes VI skill trees is the fact that VI MIXES active and passive skills while V skills are ALL passive (and different from Magic, Warcries and Runes).
NATURALLY passive skills or perks or abilities are WAY better than active ones, because you basically start a battle with all your passive skills being active (or you get advantages on the adventure map).
Additionally there is the problem that there is a default active hero ability - the hero sttack.
That IN TURN means that - as a rule of thumb - you should pick two passive skills for every active one you pick, since you cannot activate so many abilities any way.
Here is the first fatal error of the skill tree: there are way too many active abilities and not enough passive ones: having a gazillion spells is useless, because you don't need so many.
If you look at H5, there are 40 (later 50) spells, 6 War Cries and 6 Runes or so as active stuff - but DOUBLE as much passives.
I could add a lot more, but suffice it to say, that in my opinion a free-to-pick skill tree had been possible alright - but they simply screwed things up in a very unimaginative way.
I completely agree with this. We can also add the fact the "action" of the heroes is more valuable in H6, because we don't have skills like "sorcery", "mass spells",... to shorten the turns for the heroes.
edit: I mean H5 mass spells - half turn.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted June 30, 2012 04:00 PM |
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I like the depth of the H6 skill tree regarding passives and actives and like what you said JJ above, but the H5 skill wheel was so like, "aaah you went for empathy", or "you had cold death against my phoenix".....real passive choices branching off each other like a root system digging deep into the better abilities.
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 04:47 PM |
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I don't have a problem with the H6 skill tree in general. My main gripe with it is it's the same no matter which faction you choose, so it becomes very boring very quickly.
If each faction had their own special tree, it would make for a much more enjoyable experience. If that's too hard to pull off with balance and such, then at least keep the same abilities across the board, but give specific bonuses based on each faction.
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ChaosWielder
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 30, 2012 04:52 PM |
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Or, perhaps instead of faction specific trees, some faction specific abilities. They aren't very difficult to come up with.
Inferno:
Armored Gating: Gates have + 2 life.
Necro:
Risen Despair: Stacks adjacent to revived units, via Racial, take -10 morale.
Etc, etc. If there were, say, 5-10 of these per faction, then things would be far more interesting. Obviously in addition to other changes proposed by other members--making passives more interesting, for instance.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 06:03 PM |
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Quote:
I don't have a problem with the H6 skill tree in general. My main gripe with it is it's the same no matter which faction you choose, so it becomes very boring very quickly.
If each faction had their own special tree, it would make for a much more enjoyable experience. If that's too hard to pull off with balance and such, then at least keep the same abilities across the board, but give specific bonuses based on each faction.
Maybe not specific trees but at least a handfull of racial/orientation (might/magic) unique skills and a few racial "effects". For example, Heroic Charge for Stronghold could stun the target of the attack for the current turn (no retaliation)
Also, while I like the idea that some skills become stronger the more tears/blood points you have, I also think that some skills should be blood/tear exclusive to avoid people cherry-picking them (especially rank 3 skills)
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einomida
Known Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 08:09 PM |
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Quote:
That's what "we" said from the start, "we" being the VIPs here, and unanimously. We were all pushing for more situational/specific INTERESTING stuff - good example: Archery II - where you get a significant bonus in very specific situations that you may be even able to PLAY for, instead of an insignificant bonus all the time.
The main problems were a) to find those abilities (admittedly not MUCH of a problem since we flooded them with suggestions), b) to code those abilities and of course c) to balance them against each other and not make them TOO powerful.
Considering that the game was overdue anyway the underlying problem of the game is, that there were too many too massive changes for the available budget and time frame.
Now if I understood you correctly, I'd say a simple (in concept) way to fix this is to not only mix passives and actives but also link them together.
Simple example: a perk in the Light magic section that adds bonus might defense to the Heal spell (or possible a perk that makes your basic heal spell a Mass Heal or Heal +Defense buff).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 30, 2012 08:32 PM |
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted July 01, 2012 06:48 AM |
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Also something that I think could be done for a game improvement is, instead of spending your skill points on skills when you no longer want to purchase anything and you would be putting them into pointless active abilities that you don't use anyway, that you can spend your points to improve your hero's stats. Odd, I know, but for certain factions this could be rather helpful (add to luck for Inferno and Moral for Haven, for example). Of course, if the skill system were expanded then there would be no point to this proposal... or would there?
I do not like the idea of a level cap in a Heroes game. Yes, in past installments there were points where the exp requirement for the next level just became ridiculous, but you could always grow, even if you maxed out all of your possible skills. Maxing out at level thirty might seem to be a reasonable restriction, but it is still a restriction none-the-less. It bothers me a little... and if the tree was expanded, then we might suddenly find that this level cap is very, very restricting... (Which might or might not be a good idea, actually, because you would have to plan out your builds instead of getting everything you need or want)
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 01, 2012 09:05 AM |
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Quote:
Also something that I think could be done for a game improvement is, instead of spending your skill points on skills when you no longer want to purchase anything and you would be putting them into pointless active abilities that you don't use anyway, that you can spend your points to improve your hero's stats. Odd, I know, but for certain factions this could be rather helpful (add to luck for Inferno and Moral for Haven, for example). Of course, if the skill system were expanded then there would be no point to this proposal... or would there?
This would rather show that there's a problem with the current skills. If people consider that there are only 10% interesting skills, then Ubisoft should rather think about reworking the remaining 90% than giving people a way to spend their "extra" points on even more junk skills.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted July 01, 2012 09:25 AM |
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I wonder how long, would it take, for us, to come up with a skill system that is interesting and Luck free, I basicaly think it would take less then a week. Anybody in the mood to start such a topic?
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 01, 2012 11:37 AM |
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Quote:
Right. Let's repeat the important thing.
The main difference between Heroes V and Heroes VI skill trees is the fact that VI MIXES active and passive skills while V skills are ALL passive (and different from Magic, Warcries and Runes).
NATURALLY passive skills or perks or abilities are WAY better than active ones, because you basically start a battle with all your passive skills being active (or you get advantages on the adventure map).
Additionally there is the problem that there is a default active hero ability - the hero sttack.
That IN TURN means that - as a rule of thumb - you should pick two passive skills for every active one you pick, since you cannot activate so many abilities any way.
Here is the first fatal error of the skill tree: there are way too many active abilities and not enough passive ones: having a gazillion spells is useless, because you don't need so many.
If you look at H5, there are 40 (later 50) spells, 6 War Cries and 6 Runes or so as active stuff - but DOUBLE as much passives.
I could add a lot more, but suffice it to say, that in my opinion a free-to-pick skill tree had been possible alright - but they simply screwed things up in a very unimaginative way.
While I agree on your general assesment of Passive vs. Active abilities and the issues of Heroes 6, it should also be emphasized that the number of abilities in Heroes 5 is irrelevant - there could have been a gazillion spells (and I still think there were too few!) without it upsetting the system.
Point was that in Heroes 5, learning the active abilities (spells) didn't cut you off from learning the passive ones (skills). In Heroes 6 it does: On level up you have the choice of learning either a passive ability or an active ability, and taking the latter means you don't get the former. In Heroes 5, you learned your spells "for free" through Mage Guilds etc. whereas the passive abilities were learned on level-ups.
I actually think that having a wide range of active abilities available is important, because it's through the active abilities that you as a player actually leave your impact on the battle (along with positioning the units obviously). If you Hero only has one active ability (think Warlock with Lightning Bolt in Heroes 5), he will just have to spam that one spell over and over which quickly becomes trivial and furthermore will limit you in the types of encounters you can take which means that the tactical element of the games is shallowed out.
That is also why I think going away from the Mage Guild system was such a bad mistake. I'm all for skills required to learn spells, and skills required to enforce spells and add increased effect (which ironically they completely left out of Heroes 6!), but spells should still be learned by other means than the skills themselves.
____________
What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 01, 2012 03:42 PM |
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Quote:
I actually think that having a wide range of active abilities available is important, because it's through the active abilities that you as a player actually leave your impact on the battle (along with positioning the units obviously). If you Hero only has one active ability (think Warlock with Lightning Bolt in Heroes 5), he will just have to spam that one spell over and over which quickly becomes trivial and furthermore will limit you in the types of encounters you can take which means that the tactical element of the games is shallowed out.
In H6 you need more than one active ability because of cooldown times and limited charges.
In H5 (and actually every game), it is important not to have too many active abilities because the more there are, the more difficult balancing becomes and. the more difficult perks are to balance. Also, you need more perks.
As it is, I would have liked spells like WoL and CotN to be handed out exclusively in perks, because those spells may be completely useless.
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