|
|
SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
|
posted June 27, 2012 03:50 PM |
|
|
LOL I prefer emeralds rather than prismatics in H5 as more reliable dragon breath (more chance of full dmg on 2 stacks) & earth immunity & prismatic is just too unreliable
Last time I experienced (some mths ago), boundless hate did more than just a tickle in dmg and is a free 'range-like' attack (for some reason, fan manual says "Deals 15(+stats, +num) damage (Fire) to all enemy creatures.")...somehow someone wants inferno to be more powerful than any other faction?
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted June 27, 2012 04:14 PM |
|
|
@Doomforge
I think the fact you stated about the "Reloads vs resurect" is a matter of perspectiv.
1: You think It was boaring to reload X times to get a battle right.. I think its boaring to wait 10-20 turns to ressurect all my fallen units. And I do not want to know, how my oponent would be feeling if he was a Human player and I did it in aprox. 40% of my batles.
2: You think the curent sistem gives more emphesis on the tactic, and alowes you to focuse on the batle itself. I think that I will learne more from repeating a batle several times, just because I get to see different situation then from the "Ressurection maraton" that is currently in Heroes VI. Replaing a batle makes me IMHO a better player, Ressurecting my units for X turns does not.
Just to state a different opinion and put it into the discusion.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted June 27, 2012 05:26 PM |
|
|
Quote:
for some reason, fan manual says "Deals 15(+stats, +num) damage (Fire) to all enemy creatures."
That's what it says but I've never seen it deal more than these basic 15 points per Pit Lord, reduced by the target Magic Defense. The easiest way to test this is via duel - the 25 Pit Lords will probably not kill more than 10-12 Cores even they are led by a Might hero. Against a mage, better not cast it at all.
Quote:
somehow someone wants inferno to be more powerful than any other faction?
Of course *someone* wants Inferno to be more powerful than any other faction.  There's an entire pro-Inferno cabal that aims to install it as an undisputed MP champion faction. Join or die!
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 27, 2012 06:13 PM |
|
|
OK, I checked Boundless Hate - it works a bit different.
First base damage is determined. THEN base damage is modified according to magic (fire) defense. Base damage seems to be determined - falsely - by modifying base damage with attack/defense difference.
I tried a might hero against a magic hero (negative difference) which got me 274 base damage. When I tried it vice versa (and with 3 levels of Fire Magic), I had a big plus difference and base damage was 695. For comparison: base damage (unmodified) would seem to be 375).
So there seem to be a bug that way, that Magic Defense counts doubly.
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted June 27, 2012 06:22 PM |
|
|
Good job JJ. :good The difference is massive.
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 27, 2012 07:24 PM |
|
|
Well, actually I was wrong. Boundless Hate works just FINE, and just the way it should.
I made a more indepth check, using data12.orc, and I got fine results. Boundless Hate works as it should and produces good results with a magic hero. Of course damage is best against a might hero, but still.
With a might Hero against a magic hero, however, damage will naturally be much low(er).
But that's the option the ability offers you, when you play as a magic hero against a might hero, in that case your Pit Lord won't do much hitting, but Boundless Hate will score fine.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted June 27, 2012 09:05 PM |
|
|
It is rather interesting how the way champions play changes with the class you use. Magic heroes prefer ranged play after all with notable examples the cyclops and fate weaver, boundless hate is similar in that respect. Wonder if seraph resurrection is more powerful with a magic hero. Probably is.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 27, 2012 09:12 PM |
|
|
Not only that, it has an offensive effect as well, mind you - Blade of Mercy does Light damage to Demons, Orcs and Undead which is of course influenced by Magic.
So that's something I find pretty good as well.
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 27, 2012 11:55 PM |
|
|
yeah Glories are DEVASTATING with a Haven Magic hero
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
|
|
posted June 28, 2012 09:15 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I think that I will learn more from repeating a battle several times, just because I get to see different situation then from the "Ressurection maraton" that is currently in Heroes VI. Replaing a batle makes me IMHO a better player, Ressurecting my units for X turns does not.
@Davejame -> fully agree.
Guys, maybe I'm missing something here, but Boundless Hate will obviously do more damage with a fire magic hero because it's fire damage which is magic damage.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 28, 2012 09:45 AM |
|
|
Well, that's the point of it.
In the duels, with lvl 30 heroes, if you play the Inferno with a Magic Hero against a Might Hero, Pit Lords won't do that much damage. They may have a base damage of 2000, but the opposing creatures will have a might defense between 50% and 70%, which will reduce damage massively.
On the other hand the base damage of Boundless Hate will go up (depending on picked skills) and may reach 700 points while Magic Defense will be lower than Might.
It's also interesting, that the damage counts fully against (Mass)Celestial Armor.
|
|
DohMah
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted June 28, 2012 11:23 PM |
|
Edited by DohMah at 23:33, 28 Jun 2012.
|
I think that no patch could fix this flawed game. Okay, balance will be fixed, as well as other minor issues.. But i see some BIG BIG problems with this installment. Few months earlier I've started playing this piece of **** and first thing that gave me a headache - wtf is this skill system? I mean, yeah, they probably tried to give us more fun but i see no fun when you have an ability to choose any skill you want! There's no challenge at all, as with half of the skills are total waste so every time you play a different game you will always choose the same skills because who would want to pick useless skills? With this, every hero from different factions develops literally the same! Wheres fun in that? Wheres random skills? Magic guilds? Everyone hates Heroes 4 but ive installed it yesterday and i had so much fun playing it, comparing to this boring misery. I mean, there's no challenge at all. Why they had to cut resources? And make the shared recruiting pool? I don't even want to talk about some of the creatures design (like Breeder, wtf is that?).. Also, combat is boring too. The main thing you have to do in 90% of battles is to heal your units. Attack-Heal-Attack-Heal and so on.. Wow! That's "interesting"! Heroes 4 is at least very challenging (With Equalibris its even quite balanced), and this "polished-candy" is only for small kids (no offence). Black hole had surrended to nowadays paradox when games are created for kids - easy, not challenging (example CoD) and with that, NO FUN for us, long time Heroes fans. In conclusion, i am very dissapointed that Ubisoft, after a Heroes-3 like quality game TotE, let to make a boring game for kids.. But ive only played this misery (m&m VI) for 5-6 hours, so maybe there's some undiscovered good things, guys?
PS: With "easy" i meant that game is too easy to play. There no need of thinking, like in older heroes games.
____________
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted June 29, 2012 05:26 AM |
|
|
Hello and welcome to the forums
Yes you highlited topics that have discussed many times befor and you are not alone in your opinion. I woudl say te Majority of people here think that the skill system needs a rework, and needs it bad
Other things like the designe choice they made in the case of some units is rather an personal opinion. I for one think the breedr is one of the best designed units. It is interesting and new, unlike other new Creatures in inferno.
And I aswell as you dislike the shared Creature pool. Actually, I hate it, and I hate it a lot.
As far es ingame economy goes, I think it is not that bad, its just as you said to easy. There is to much of gold, to fe ways how to spent the resources. But there are things I like about the system aswell.
Last thing, I do not know if you know this, but Black hole is out of the game, they died creating this game. Many features were not from them but directly from Ubi (Like the all open skill system or economy model). We have a saying in my homeland "Speak only good about the dead." for more information read the "The End of Black Hole Games?" topic.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
|
|
DohMah
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted June 29, 2012 06:41 AM |
|
Edited by DohMah at 06:44, 29 Jun 2012.
|
Quote:
Hello and welcome to the forums
Yes you highlited topics that have discussed many times befor and you are not alone in your opinion. I woudl say te Majority of people here think that the skill system needs a rework, and needs it bad
Other things like the designe choice they made in the case of some units is rather an personal opinion. I for one think the breedr is one of the best designed units. It is interesting and new, unlike other new Creatures in inferno.
And I aswell as you dislike the shared Creature pool. Actually, I hate it, and I hate it a lot.
As far es ingame economy goes, I think it is not that bad, its just as you said to easy. There is to much of gold, to fe ways how to spent the resources. But there are things I like about the system aswell.
Last thing, I do not know if you know this, but Black hole is out of the game, they died creating this game. Many features were not from them but directly from Ubi (Like the all open skill system or economy model). We have a saying in my homeland "Speak only good about the dead." for more information read the "The End of Black Hole Games?" topic.
Thanks for the info. I have to agree with you about the creature design. I was just filled with anger when i though and wrote previous post about this "game", so then everything looked bad about it.
About the economy, i think that we should agree that EASY is not interesting at all. I just cant believe that so intelligent game series went to a no-brainer style.
And as i understood, Black Hole mainly created visuals, audio ant other non-gameplay elements of the game? And ubisoft is responsible for this miserabable gameplay?
I know that Black Hole is out of the development but you just gave me more info so again, thanks for that.
Lastly, You said that you like something about mm VI. I would like to hear about it 
____________
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted June 29, 2012 07:40 AM |
|
|
Quote:
And as i understood, Black Hole mainly created visuals, audio ant other non-gameplay elements of the game? And ubisoft is responsible for this miserabable gameplay?
Just for imfo
Ubi is responsible for things like, resourcesourtcut, Creature pool or skill system. They wanted to bring the game in this "symple" gameplay style. I personal have no problem with unbalanced features so think there was no need for going "All balance" way, which is the reason for several of these desicions. Also the story was Ubis work
BH was generaly in charge of the hard work, the coding. Making all thing functional (well they did what they could), They created the games mechanics and all the things the game needed to work.
Animations were don by a different company (pupper works), game art also by a different company. BH basicly recieved all these sources and his job was to make a game out of them and make it functional.
If you want to talk about MaM VI please let us use this topic its the first MaM VI topic I found.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 29, 2012 08:25 AM |
|
|
*Sigh*
Let's not go overboard here. In my opinion the decisions for general design are completely understandable. As I've written a hundes times, it's not the game features as such that are "bad" - it's how they are implemented.
Having a complete free-pick skill system makes sense only, if the skills are "balanced", that is, if none are (too) weak and none are (too) strong. It would also make sense, when you didn't get class-specific skills automatically, but if they were part of the pool to pick from.
I mean, there is nothing wrong with simply trying to create such a system - but then you have to make the changes work.
Which is the problem. Take town conversion. Nothing wrong with it, especially when you could have made it an option with game setup. Simple checbox: ENABLE/DISABLE TOWN CONVERSION
Not to mention, balancing the prices for the conversion.
When it comes to the 6th installment of a game like heroes, it's all about FINE-TUNING. Radical changes are not out of the question, but it doesn't do to create Frankenstein's Monster from a bunch of body parts, sewn badly together, making the thing stumble along ponderously and uncontrolled. No, it's about creating a gracious beauty, an android that you can't set apart from a real human being, so-to-speak.
And that's what the game is now. A collection of stitched-up body parts, working grudgingly together, while stumbling over their own feet.
We'll see what 1.5 will do. Maybe things become smoother.
|
|
DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
|
|
posted June 29, 2012 08:38 AM |
|
|
Heroes VI has alot to offer and brings alot to the table (reputation is nice addition).
The issues that most of the loyal fans have is Heroes VI alters some of the series' long-standing conventions:
- Abandoning the chance-based skills system (which one always had to strategize what route to go - good for replayability too)
- reducing the number of resources (therefore reducing strategy on how and when to build)
- Shared creature pool & town conversion (making it esay to get 100% of troops at any time - no strategy but time saving I suppose)
- Magic guild leveling is replaced by the hero skill/ability wheel leveling
The most significant for me is the loss of chance-based skill system and magic guild....this I found was what made the Heroes series unique.
|
|
avalon00x
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
|
|
posted June 29, 2012 10:36 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Heroes VI has alot to offer and brings alot to the table (reputation is nice addition).
The issues that most of the loyal fans have is Heroes VI alters some of the series' long-standing conventions:
- Abandoning the chance-based skills system (which one always had to strategize what route to go - good for replayability too)
- reducing the number of resources (therefore reducing strategy on how and when to build)
- Shared creature pool & town conversion (making it esay to get 100% of troops at any time - no strategy but time saving I suppose)
- Magic guild leveling is replaced by the hero skill/ability wheel leveling
The most significant for me is the loss of chance-based skill system and magic guild....this I found was what made the Heroes series unique.
I must disagree on some of your conclusions.
-Chance-based skill system was awfully flawed, luck should not influence hero growth that much. The Skill tree is too plain, Spells should not have been included, Class + Racial Skill trees, Maybe even a skill tree that evolves with sub classes. All in all the skill tree system is Much better. you might not like it but it is better and certainly more fair, But it should be spiced up ALOT to become good.
-Reducing recourses actualy increases strategy. You have to choose where you spend your recourses. not spend the few available ones you came across eventho you dont really need those. One additional resource would have been nice tho.
- Shared creature pool & town conversion The creature pool should stay there and stay there for good. no more chaining heroes across the map that make turns take ages. Town conversion could use some balancing but the idea is ok.
- Magic guild leveling is replaced by the hero skill/ability wheel leveling
The hero skill / ability system is good as it is. But like i said i think spells should be excluded to bring the Magic guild back.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted June 29, 2012 12:03 PM |
|
|
Quote:
- Abandoning the chance-based skills system (which one always had to strategize what route to go - good for replayability too)
Like JJ said, the issue here is the implementation. And yes, it's quite awfully implemented. The skills just don't feel interesting enough. They have either been nerfed to oblivion compared to previous installments, or are just... lame (+2 attack... yeah, "amazing").
Quote:
- reducing the number of resources (therefore reducing strategy on how and when to build)
TBH there was little strategy in how and when to build earlier on (except Equilibris). You just picked whatever was near you and built the most powerful dwellings available. Keep in mind that except H4 there was no choice in buldings, you ultimately wanted them all, and the power of your creatures was not equal, so you had i.e. dragons over treants in your mind from the beginning of the game and not because of the resources that were available to you.
Quote:
- Shared creature pool & town conversion (making it esay to get 100% of troops at any time - no strategy but time saving I suppose)
That was an attempt to remedy the fact captured towns were nearly useless unless captured extremely early and developed along with your main town... Not the best one, I agree, but at least they tried. It also reduces the unearthly advantage of one player capturing a town of his own type early and getting massively bigger army in the lategame. With neutral towns often flagged random on many maps, that was potentially gamebreaking luck on big maps.
Quote:
- Magic guild leveling is replaced by the hero skill/ability wheel leveling
That was another weak attempt to do the right job: remove the game breaking randomness of mage guilds. But yeah, instead of that, they could just allowed players to pick the spells they want when building mage guild or expanding it. I would prefer that.
Quote:
The most significant for me is the loss of chance-based skill system and magic guild....this I found was what made the Heroes series unique.
Well, you can't please both kinds of games. There are the ones that loved it and hated it, one group will always feel bad about it. For instance, I didn't really like random skills at level ups, it had zero tactical value and reduced hero development to coin toss. Not that I like what they decided to implement instead, of course..
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
|
|
posted June 29, 2012 12:43 PM |
|
|
@ Doom and Av -> I hear you guys and you have given great points.
I was just mentioning some changes to long standing conventions that have been around frmo Heroes 1 - 5.
We all agree though that the skill tree system needs work and that the magic guild should come back!
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
