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| Thread: Duel Map Brainstorming! - Beta Version! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 03, 2012 11:12 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 19:37, 23 Sep 2012.
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Duel Map Brainstorming! - Beta Version!
Since I am working on the introduction of the new duel map I figured some of you may want to help with the creative process  At its core the map design will remain similar but I am looking for new possibilities and elegant solutions.
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I am considering an army strength of 6-7 weeks under the assumption that:
- Cores and fort are built on week 1.
- Elites and citadel on week 2.
- Champions on week 4.
- Castle on week 5.
- Core and elite upgrades are built 2 weeks after their respective dwellings, champions have no upgrade bonus.
For instance a week 7 ghost stack would be 18(6x3) from basic unit + 40(10x4) from upgrade + 13(1 + 2x3 + 3x2) from fortifications for a total of 71. The namtaru would likewise be 4(1x4) from basic + 8(2x1 + 3x2) from fortifications for a total of 12. If the cores prove too fragile I might add some since I did not include starting armies nor convertible dwellings from which there will no doubt be some core ones.
It is possible to set mix and max values to approximate theoretical creeping losses Not sure if I'll actually go for it but it might provide some variety. The min-max range would not be high either way.
Depending on quests or script triggers I might be able to offer further variety by giving the option to (slightly) boost one core/elite stack of your choice. The reason for this would be that you normally build or upgrade some units first at the expense of others so you tend to have more of them but on the other side it could cause an imbalance rather than an actual dilemma. Remains to be seen.
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While it would speed up things if I allowed people to import their own heroes, I'd rather the leveling took part ingame. Keeping track of your custom heroes in this mess of a hero pool is a pain and according to your opponent there are always some minor build tweaks to make. Also I'd rather lower the max level to 25 so that:
- You can fill a lvl 4 racial gauge but not use an ultimate. I am not convinced they are balanced, for one the hellcaller one is useless in duels.
- Skill choices feel a little tighter.
- The matchup feels more down to earth, I doubt lvl 30 will be commonplace in regular games.
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There will have to be artifact merchants as no artifacts = no fun. I am considering to place 2-3 of them per faction, due to the sheer amount of total artifacts and their reduced effect compared to H5. With the possibility of scrolls appearing things should be interesting.
I might leave weeks random, I should investigate whether any of them would be problematic and if banning them is possible. If only there was a week that maximized your given reputation..
I might place some stat booster locations to improve certain aspects of the game(luck, destructive etc) but since the balance has yet to be tested it will have to take a raincheck for now.
Normally I would love to place two random dynasty weapons per faction but right now they are horribly imbalanced and there is no way to limit your hero to just the weapons you found on the map. Unfortunate..
There will naturally be a variety of landscapes so that you can choose your favourite battlefields.
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What do you think?
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted August 03, 2012 01:35 PM |
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Quote:
I am considering an army strength of 6-7 weeks under the assumption that:
(...)
- Champions on week 4.
- Castle on week 5.
- Core and elite upgrades are built 2 weeks after their respective dwellings, 3 weeks for champions.
For instance a week 7 (...) The namtaru would likewise be 3(1x3) from basic + 2(2x1) from upgrade + 11(2x1 + 3x3) from fortifications for a total of 16.
I don't understand how you count that.
Champion built on week 4 : 1 Champion
Week 5 : +3 Champions (basic, fort and citadel), total = 4 Champions
Week 6 : +4 Champions (basic, fort, citadel and castle), total = 8 Champions
Week 7 : +4 Champions (basic, fort, citadel and castle), total = 12 Champions
So there will be 12 Champions, not 16, right? Or I'm wrong somewhere?
Same with the Ghosts, I don't understand what you count exactly. With Fortification you say +16 while when I count I obtain something else : Fort week 1 means +6 Ghosts (from week 2 to 7), Citadel week 2 means +5 Ghosts (from week 3 to 7), Castle week 5 means +2 Ghosts (from week 6 to 7), thus total bonus = 6+5+2 = 13 Ghosts not 16.
Quote:
There will have to be artifact merchants as no artifacts = no fun.
So don't forget to ban few of them as the obi-something (+3 Might Range damage and no Range penalty) who is completely broken with Bastion Necro, and Haven.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 03, 2012 01:56 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 21:35, 26 Aug 2012.
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Sorry, you are right. Hasty calculation
And yes the emerald yumi bow will be the first to ban.. Ridiculously overpowered.
I took some time to properly calculate the unit growth for each tier.
Let's take coral maiden, kenshi and kirin:
Week 1 - Fort1 - (+0) - - 7
Week 2 - Fort2 - (+1) - - 8/3
Week 3 - Upg1 - (+2) - - 9/5
Week 4 - Upg2 - (+2) - +Upg1 - 13/5/2
Week 5 - Fort3 - (+2) - +Upg1&2 - 13/7/4
Week 6 - - (+3) - +Upg1&2 - 14/8/5
Week 7 - - (+3) - +Upg1&2 - 14/8/5
Essentially the formula is..
Core: (Bas growth x 3) + (Upg growth x4) + 13
Elite: (Bas growth x 3) + (Upg growth x3) + 12
Champion: (Bas growth x 4) + 8
SANCTUARY
(7/11) priestess 21+44+13 (78)
(8/13) kappa 24+52+13 (89)
(8/12) shark 24+48+13 (85)
(4/6) spring spirit 12+18+12 (42)
(3/5) kenshi 9+15+12 (36)
(3/4) snow maiden 9+12+12 (33)
(2/3) kirin 8+8 (16)
NECRO
(9/14) skele 27+56+13 (96)
(6/10) ghoul 18+40+13 (71)
(7/10) ghost 21+40+13 (74)
(4/5) vamp 12+15+12 (39)
(5/7) lamasu 15+21+12 (48)
(3/5) lich 9+15+12 (36)
(1/2) weaver 4+8 (12)
HAVEN
(9/14) sentinel 27+56+13 (96)
(7/11) sister 21+44+13 (78)
(7/12) archer 21+48+13 (82)
(3/4) griffin 9+12+12 (33)
(3/5) rider 9+15+12 (36)
(3/5) glory 9+15+12 (36)
(1/2)angel 4+8 (12)
ORC
(11/16) goblin 33+64+13 (110)
(6/9) mauler 18+36+13 (67)
(7/10) harpy 24+40+13 (77)
(4/6) shaman 12+18+12 (41)
(3/5) jagwar 9+15+12 (36)
(3/4) centaur 9+12+12 33)
(1/2) cyclops 4+8 (12)
INFERNO
(9/12) maniac 27+48+13 (88)
(6/9) hound 18+36+13 (67)
(7/11) succubus 21+44+13 (78)
(3/5) jugnaut 9+15+12 (36)
(3/5) torment 9+15+12 (36)
(4/5) breeder 12+15+12 (40)
(1/2) fiend 4+8 (12)
I think I'll make a simple version without reputation just to test the armies.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 03, 2012 10:32 PM |
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Quote:
I am considering an army strength of 6-7 weeks under the assumption that:
- Cores and fort are built on week 1.
- Elites and citadel on week 2.
- Champions on week 4.
- Castle on week 5.
- Core and elite upgrades are built 2 weeks after their respective dwellings, champions have no upgrade bonus.
I think the castle should probably come before the champions. Some towns will rush certain unit upgrades *cough* *cough* healers, while some might rush certain elites. I assume you meant that and just didn't state it though.
Also it may be more practical to make one variable duel map than numerous small ones. E.g. have a map with all five factions but 3 of them go unused, and then have either a trigger or use color tents to block off the parts of the map not being used.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 03, 2012 10:47 PM |
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A castle before champions is highly unrealistic, nobody has 20 wood/ore and 10k gold to throw away for just +1 to universal growth. And champions before week 4 is similarly hard to do unless you get 2 crystal mines early..
I have in mind that some units may be rushed, that is why I mentioned a possible quest that boosts one of the three core/elite stacks. But even so that wouldn't make much of a difference in balance when we are dealing with a week 7 army - There are bigger balance priorities at the moment.
I don't see why I'd block any areas, it is easy to set up the faction areas with one way monoliths so that two heroes can only meet in neutral ground without capturing the unused forts.
PS there is no buildings tab in stronghold. I can't place a stronghold fort 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 03, 2012 11:04 PM |
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Doesn't the champion building cost more than a castle? I haven't done an in depth comparison but I think it provides less of a bonus.
One way monoliths get really annoying, and whether or not you ban town portal on this map there will be inconveniences. Also it means you have to put in a weird win condition because you won't be able to siege your opponents castle. I guess you could disable the tavern and then say you loose when you loose your hero, and then make it so if two months go by then whoever controls the middle wins to force a battle. It would be odd.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 04, 2012 12:14 AM |
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You have apparently never tried my duel maps
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 04, 2012 12:27 AM |
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certainly not - the key is to fight the duel, not to win the map.
Good Luck with this Elvin - though I doubt it'll be as good as H5 duel maps
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 04, 2012 12:46 AM |
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I haven't.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 05, 2012 02:36 AM |
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I have set up the forts, armies and random faction heroes. Next step is to:
- Exclude certain heroes/specials/artifacts. Anyone knows how or if possible?
- Find a sphinx(does it exist in H6?) to give xp with correct answer or figure out how to give lvl 25 via script trigger.
- Learn how to give gold with script. Can gold piles be edited?
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 05, 2012 02:59 AM |
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Gold can be given with a script, the others I don't know the answer to.
I believe this (incomplete) page lists all of the triggers available.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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mikkelgro
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 05, 2012 10:53 AM |
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Quote:
Gold can be given with a script, the others I don't know the answer to.
I believe this (incomplete) page lists all of the triggers available.
Almost all triggers, as these are the ones from the Scenario 'folder' in the editor. Nemaaa (from Black Hole whom helped me a bit) told me that this was primarily where all the working triggers are, except for these:
Folder: Variable - all triggers
Folder: _Obsolet - only 'Compare'
Other than these, ignore all triggers outside of the Scenario folder.
Mikkelgro
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Pitlord
Known Hero
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posted August 05, 2012 12:53 PM |
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lvl 20 would be imo enough... furthermore smth like 3 artifact areas where u can choose one would be cool. is it possible to create non-dynasty weapons?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 05, 2012 01:07 PM |
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I considered it but there are many artifact sets and giving people the option to buy would help with the artifact collecting. It is an aspect of the game that I personally like.
Non-dynasty weapons is a utopia, even if it was possible one would still have to mod them, balance them and so on.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 06, 2012 03:29 PM |
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Turns out that I can give lvl 1 reputation via arenas, they give 150 reputation points by default so two of them are enough for you to pick an advanced class. Unfortunately you gain no experience from them so I still need to find another way to level up the heroes..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 06, 2012 07:26 PM |
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looooooooots of experience stones? O.o
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 07, 2012 06:20 AM |
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Scenario_AddReputation
Scenario_AddResource
Scenario_AddXp
From that list of triggers I linked before. Seeing as how those were the 12th, 13th, and 14th triggers in the list I'm guessing you didn't check the list  .
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 07, 2012 08:17 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 08:23, 07 Aug 2012.
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I know but I have no clue how to even set them up!
It just occurred to me, the scripted xp will more than likely be multiplied by the xp rate. This is a very handy way of testing the balance in various level settings.
There is one thing I do not understand though. I set player 1 as sanctuary, player 2 as necro etc from the map properties yet the hero that appears when you create the map is random and may not be from that specific faction. This is problematic, I don't want people to memorize what faction each player is supposed to be.. I'm not sure what is causing this.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted August 07, 2012 08:23 AM |
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Max hero level for duels
Elvin,
With your uber fantastic ToH Duel 1.2 map from Heroes V the thing was that the sphinx brought you up to level 21 but you had to choose each skill one by one until you reached level 21. This was a skill in itself the players had to strategise about.
In Heroes VI, the beauty in levelling up is that when you reach say level 11, you could stop using your ability points to choose skills so that when you reached level 15, you could choose multiple tier 3 (expert) skills with the many available ability points that you built up all in one go. It's basically up to the player deciding how many tier 3 skills they want to have at level 15 (if you wait with your ability points to reach level 15, you can have more).
Which brings me to my point that in a Heroes VI duel map, level 20 - 25 might be too high, allowing too much freedom of choice. Maybe the max level should be between 15 and 20, that way people will need to specialize more. A might hero will have a breeze in choosing plus 20 might skills but not so much if it was only 15.
My two cents.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 07, 2012 08:26 AM |
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In the Menu Bar do Scenario > Trigger Editor (or Alt + T)
Right click on On game start, do Add Trigger. Leave Initially on True and Disabled False. Set pCondition to ScenarioC_IsDayOfTheWeek, set Day to 1, and leave pBoolean true. Set pAction to whatever, set dwNum to how much you want to happen. I think that for reputation life is tears and death is blood.
This will make a trigger which does the action on the first turn of the game. I don't know any more than that, I figured out that much myself so that I could give my self a ridiculous amount of resources to build every building in the game so I could check the growth numbers for the website. I believe that which trigger menu you put it in (e.g. On game start) does nothing, it just helps you organize your triggers. You should be able to get that much working, fiddling one thing at a time should get you to where you need to be.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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