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| Thread: Skill System Redesign |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted December 10, 2012 03:36 PM |
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Of course, the present Ability Tree should be redesigned in order to make Heroes of different factions, affinities and reputations more different. As I understood, global changes can't be applied because of the code's complexity. So my version is based on blocking Heroes' access to the skills of various schools, reputations and levels. Here it is. Hope it's not as difficult as creating a completely new skill system.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 12, 2012 06:55 PM |
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@Maurice
No heroes game had an abundance of adventure skills and I don't see why we would suddenly create a demand for an amount of abilities that match the combat ones. Sure we could imagine numerous such skills but this begs the question.. why? I'd much rather spend the budget on things we really need.
@krs
Never was a fan of garbage skills and this is especially true for chance-based level ups. Reminds me the painful experience of having to pick between mysticism and eagle eye  Eagle eye in H5 however was good because there was no chance to miss the spell, it was only one ability instead of a skill with 3 levels of mastery and there were numerous neutrals you could learn useful spell from such as fireball or slow. Traditionally bad skills can be improved to make them worth picking, H5 successfully did that though it was by no means free from crappy skills.
@SepSpring
Seems nice though it wouldn't work very well for H6. The game does not have enough spells to make spell schools stand out, we need all the spells we can get  I'd much rather add/remove specific spells within the schools to provide variation - a warlock's air magic should be different from a shaman's.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 13, 2012 09:46 AM |
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Quote:
Never was a fan of garbage skills and this is especially true for chance-based level ups. Reminds me the painful experience of having to pick between mysticism and eagle eye Eagle eye in H5 however was good because there was no chance to miss the spell, it was only one ability instead of a skill with 3 levels of mastery and there were numerous neutrals you could learn useful spell from such as fireball or slow. Traditionally bad skills can be improved to make them worth picking, H5 successfully did that though it was by no means free from crappy skills.
Agreed, we do not want to return to the H3 days of Eagle Eye vs. Mysticism. I don't know how many games I rage-quit because of that, but it was not a few! I do think H5 was very well in this regard, the number of perks I'd rate crappy were very few, and the number of skills I'd rate useless were 0.
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 13, 2012 10:47 AM |
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As an extra tool in hero building, I would like the return of some classic adventure locations such as the scholar(may teach you a spell or skill), witch hut(random skill) and university that can teach you up to 4 skills for a fee. As far as random skills go there should be an option to refuse
I miss the way that starting skills affected your creeping in the old games, heroes 3 and heroes 5 most notably.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted December 13, 2012 02:40 PM |
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Quote:
@Maurice
No heroes game had an abundance of adventure skills and I don't see why we would suddenly create a demand for an amount of abilities that match the combat ones. Sure we could imagine numerous such skills but this begs the question.. why? I'd much rather spend the budget on things we really need.
Ok, but at least make the Adventure map skills equally available to all classes. Not the way they did it in H6, where Might Heroes get access to more than the Magic Heroes.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 13, 2012 02:57 PM |
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Yes I was hardly satisfied with the skill design.. Its highlight was the evolution of certain abilities such as archery(that moves from a fixed ranged boost, to focused fire, to reducing ranged penalty) and stormwinds(that improves the ranged protection by adding lightnings with a stun possibility!). Beyond a few brilliant skill redesigns, it all fell flat. Hell, even magic classes had mostly the same abilities as might and could choose to play the same way till they hit lvl 15.
I think that distributing the adventure skills between logistics(pathfinding, scouting, nagivation), luck(resourcefulness) and nobility(architect, estates, mining) would do the trick just fine.
____________
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted December 16, 2012 01:00 AM |
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As usual, I have an idea which is able to satisfy nobody, except me.
To my mind, eleven schools is enough. Each contains three skills (elemental - seven). Choosing them is completely manual.
OFFENCE
- The damage inflicted by your troops is increased by X%
- Your troops' first retaliation becomes anticipatory
- Your troops get an additional retaliation for the first turn
DEFENCE
- The damage inflicted by enemy troops is decreased by X%
- The bonus provided by the defend command is increased by X%
- Your troops get an ability to protect the near allies *
ARCHERY
- Your shooters have no range penalty
- Your shooters' ranged attacks ignore target's defence
- Your shooters' ranged attacks ignore obstacles
TACTICS
- Your troops can be rearranged in a larger area
- Your machines' effectiveness is increased by X%
- Your troops' speed is increased by X
EXPLORATION
- Your hero's movement penalty is decreased by X%
- Your hero's range of view is doubled **
- Your hero gets an ability to reveal information about near enemies
LEADERSHIP
- Your troops' morale is increased by X
- Your troops' initiative is increased by X
- Your hero gets an ability to join neutral troops for free
MANAGEMENT
- The prices at which your hero's transactions are conducted are decreased by X%
- Your hero gets an ability to increase income from a certain source by X%
- Your hero finds a quarter more resources
WISDOM
- Your hero gets an ability to learn complex spells ***
- Your hero's amount of mana is increased by X%
- The speed of your hero's mana regeneration is increased by X spell points a day
SORCERY
- The cost of your hero's spells is decreased by X%
- The power of your hero's spells is increased by X%
- The recharge time of your hero's spells is decreased by a turn ****
PROVIDENCE
- Your troops' luck is increased by X
- Your troops' magic resistance is increased by X%
- The experience gained by your hero is increased by X%
ELEMENTAL *****
- Your hero gets an ability to learn basic > advanced > expert spells based on the prime magic
- Your hero gets an ability to learn basic > advanced > expert spells based on the light magic
- Your hero gets an ability to learn basic > advanced > expert spells based on the dark magic
- Your hero gets an ability to learn basic > advanced > expert spells based on the air magic
- Your hero gets an ability to learn basic > advanced > expert spells based on the water magic
- Your hero gets an ability to learn basic > advanced > expert spells based on the earth magic
- Your hero gets an ability to learn basic > advanced > expert spells based on the fire magic
* Just like the ability of sentinels and praetorians in "Heroes VI".
** This skill would be important if the fog of war covers those areas which you have already left (as it was in "Heroes IV").
*** I have an idea of dividing spells into levels of complexity depending on the amount of magic schools which they are formed by. For example, the "Rock Walls" spell is simple because it's based on earth magic only, and the "Regeneration" is more complex as it requires the knowledge of both water and earth magic schools. This skill will unlock access to those spells which consist of several elements. According to the example: a hero must have three skills - basic water magic, basic earth magic, complex magic - in order to learn the "Regeneration" spell. Or, for instance, the "Lightning Bolt" formed by combination of advanced air magic and basic fire one.
**** I just enjoy the idea of spells having the recharge time.
***** All the skills in this school have three degrees. You'll have to spend one ability point to unlock access to basic spells of a certain magic school, two - to advanced spells, three - to expert ones. And a little explanation: simple are spells of one magic school, complex - of several, and basic, advanced, expert are their levels. A spell can be simple and expert or complex and basic at the same time (from my examples: the "Rock Walls" is advanced and simple; the "Regeneration" is basic and complex; the "Lightning Bolt" is advanced and complex).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 16, 2012 12:07 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 13:03, 16 Dec 2012.
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This is close to what I had in mind with some categorization differences.
For instance I consider retaliations part of defense, archery part of attack, machines separate from tactics and resistance separate from luck. Are those the three basic perks? Because some of them sound way too good for easy access.
Your spell system sounds a bit complex, it would probably be easy once you saw the skill branches and requirements but I don't see how returning the spells in the skill system would be a good idea. Or those annoying cooldowns.. Spells should be balanced in a way that you don't need a cooldown to prevent you from casting them.
Having thought about it some more, my skill tree plans would look like that. PS I only include basic perks for simplicity's sake, their effectiveness depends on skill mastery so archery would be +10% at basic offense and 20% at expert offense. Also not sure if skills should have an effect too or just strengthen the perks. The latter might be a better idea but I'm going with the former for now.
OFFENSE(+5/10/15% inflicted might dmg)
Battle frenzy (+1 dmg to core/ +2 dmg to elite/ +5 dmg to champion)
Archery (+10/15/20% ranged dmg)
Pressed attack (Hero marks a unit, whenever it attacks the hero attacks too)
- Actually I prefer 4 unit tiers but this is an example.
- Also I put pressed attack there because I don't want heroes to have direct attacks outside of the skill system.
DEFENSE(5/10/15% reduced might dmg)
Toughness (+2hp to core/+5hp to elite/+10hp to champion)
Evasion (+10/15/20% ranged reduction)
Counterstrike (+10/15/20% to retaliation dmg)
- Theoretically toughness should give a might resistance but I gave it +hp so as to merge it with the H5 protection ability. That way it helps both against might and magic attacks.
- I do not like skills that give extra retaliations passively, I'd much rather they had a condition such as defend or have a specific warcry for that.
TACTICS(Deployment radius 0/1/2)
Reinforcements (Creatures +x/y/z% of your army strength join the fight)
Siege March (Units gain +2 movement in siege)
Ambush (Deny opponents deployment area by 1/2/ gain +5 init on first round)
- If the tactics skill was just the umbrella for the perks and gave no bonuses then a tactics ability would substitute ambush as a core skill. Ambush would become an advanced ability instead.
LOGISTICS (+3/5/8 movement on adventure map)
Pathfinding (Ignore terrain penalties by 25/50/75%)
Scouting (+1/2/3 scouting radius)
Navigation (+3/5/8 movement on sea)
LEADERSHIP (+4/6/10 morale)
Warcry master (+x/y/z% effectiveness)
Recruitment (+1/2/3 units of the first tier to recruit per week)
Diplomacy (Neutrals have increase chance to join for reduced price, also reduces cost of surrendering.)
- Morale chance is calculated as 1% per morale point, that way we can still have individual unit morale. Those bonuses are additive so expert leadership gives +20% chance for good morale.
NOBILITY(+x/y/z gold per town you control)
Mining (Bonus resources from mines you own every x/y/z days)
Economist (Improved marketplace rates)
Architect (Reduced building prices)
ENLIGHTENMENT(+10/15/20% xp)
Intelligence (+20/30/50% mana)
Eagle eye (Automatically learn spells cast by another from 1-2/3/4 circle)
Scholar (Allow exchanging spells with other heroes)
SORCERY(+10/20/30% spell effectiveness)
Arcane training (Reduced mana cost)
Mana regeneration (After combat for basic/advanced, during combat in expect)
Magic insight (Allows hero to learn 3/4/5 tier spells regardless of the schools they possess)
FORTUNE (+4/6/10 luck)
Resourcefulness (+x/y/z from picked resources, better treasure rewards from combat locations)
Soldier's luck (improved chance for abilities to trigger)
Misfortune (Decrease enemy luck and their lucky dmg bonuses)
RESISTANCE (x/y/z% to reduce spell effectiveness by 30%)
Currupt mana (Enemy spells cost more)
Back to the void (Increased damage against summons)
Detain magic (Reduced spell duration)
WARMACHINES (+x/y/z to structural points)
Ballista (Improved dmg)
Tent (Heal lvl 1/2/3 curses, revive x/y/z of your fallen units after combat)
Catapult
- Honestly I'd rather warmachines had manual control regardless of your mastery.
- Portion of tent verival is of course small.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted December 16, 2012 12:44 PM |
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Honestly I'd rather warmachines had manual control regardless of your mastery.
Totally agree.
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Are those the three basic perks? Because some of them sound way too good for easy access.
Yes, all the skills of the first ten schools are basic. But I think they are well balanced, there is no completely useless one, each is worth learning (depending on your strategy, of course). They can be made even more important by reducing the total amount of hero's ability points, for example, to 10 or 15 (with 51 skills in total).
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Or those annoying cooldowns.. Spells should be balanced in a way that you don't need a cooldown to prevent you from casting them.
The idea of cool-downs is quite enjoyable personally for me. It just sounds logical that you have to wait before casting the same spell again.
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it would probably be easy once you saw the skill branches and requirements but I don't see how returning the spells in the skill system would be a good idea
Excuse me, please, my English is really bad, I don't understand the meaning of this phrase. What does it refer to?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 16, 2012 01:02 PM |
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I wasn't very clear I meant that I don't find spells being part of the skill system is a good idea. You said that a combination of fire and air for instance would unlock lightning yes? I assume that refers to an h6 spell system.
- Your troops get an ability to protect the near allies *
- Your shooters have no range penalty
- Your shooters' ranged attacks ignore target's defence
- Your troops' speed is increased by X
- Your troops' initiative is increased by X
- Your hero gets an ability to join neutral troops for free
I find those a bit problematic for basic abilities. The praetorian's ability is quite good for a passive, balanced only by the fact that praetorians themselves are not crazy damage dealers. If a barbarian would pick it with crazy damage dealers this could be very bad. No range penalty and extra initiative/speed have always been overly strong effects because the first effectively doubles distant fire and the second allows highly offensive factions to attack first which is VERY important. A ring of celerity can make or break a game. And extra speed is even worse. Fine in earlygame but deadly later on. The final one is totally broken as proven only too many times in H3. Imagine games where we got 75 dendroid soldiers, 120 zealots and other funny amounts of neutral stacks. We had to make a rule with my friends not to use diplomacy because all this army for free was just too much.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted December 16, 2012 02:15 PM |
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Quote:
The praetorian's ability is quite good for a passive, balanced only by the fact that praetorians themselves are not crazy damage dealers. If a barbarian would pick it with crazy damage dealers this could be very bad.
I meant that defender will just take part of damage, he won't reduce it or retaliate. And both assaulter and target must be near to the defender. The ability won't work if one of them doesn't hold the adjacent square. And barbarians may just not have access to this skill. 
Quote:
the first effectively doubles distant fire
It can be balanced by making most shooters the troops of low initiative. In this case the melee fighters with high initiative and speed would get chance to come closer and disable the advantage given by the skill. Moreover, it can become an incentive to learn some skills from the Tactics and Leadership schools.
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the second allows highly offensive factions to attack first which is VERY important
That is why I wrote X instead of any certain figures. The advantage can be moderate enough in order to keep the skills balanced (like the "Ambush" from "Heroes VI").
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And extra speed is even worse. Fine in earlygame but deadly later on.
The problem can be solved by the same approach: increasing speed by 1. Not 2 or 3. The knowledge of spells which influence creatures' initiative, speed, morale is able to oppose this skill.
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The final one is totally broken as proven only too many times in H3. Imagine games where we got 75 dendroid soldiers, 120 zealots and other funny amounts of neutral stacks. We had to make a rule with my friends not to use diplomacy because all this army for free was just too much.
I see. Then it can just grant your hero an ability to use diplomacy or provide a discount (for example, 25%).
Quote:
You said that a combination of fire and air for instance would unlock lightning yes?
A hero gets an ability to learn (not use) certain spells only after picking appropriate skills. Example: your Haven wizard levels up and gets an ability point, he spends it on learning basic air magic (he doesn't have access to all elements but air is available), goes to a friendly town where the guild is already built, chooses those basic simple air spells which he would like to have in his spell book (the "Precision" and "Grounded", for instance), pays for them and uses them in combats later. Then he levels up again, learns advanced air magic, basic fire magic and complex magic from the Wisdom school, returns to his town with a guild, pays for the spells he needs and stores them. Now he is able to learn basic simple air, advanced simple air, basic simple fire, basic complex air & fire, advanced complex air & fire (which don't require the knowledge of advanced fire magic) spells. For example, this time he picks the "Storm Winds" (advanced simple air), "Lightning Bolt" (advanced complex air & fire), "Inner Fire" (basic simple fire) spells.
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted December 17, 2012 12:29 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 12:50, 17 Dec 2012.
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I really liked the H5 skill wheel and some times I used to click around in it making “perfect” heroes, taking breaks from studying. After handing in I would test my new favorite strategy, started the game and ended up with something completely different. But the randomness was both good and bad. It was fun to just go with the flow and finding that most things could work fine, but I still have many cool strategies that never has been tested.
In H6 I can get what I want but surprisingly that is not very fun. It is too easy to find the “best” use of a skill in H6. Plus X % for that and minus X % for this. And if I do mistakes healing spells will save me.
While in H5 there could always be found another way to use a skill, to stumble on something new or turn something useless into something useful. For example to turn a Knight into a high spell power magician who nukes Warlocks with Curse of the Netherworld. Or to play a Demon Lord as a defensive dark sorcerer. Or to take the challenge of an unusual starting skill or hero specialty and make it work.
Selecting skills with randomness
Randomness in getting skills was not a big problem (except when it comes to dark magic and its counters) because you could manipulate what you get rather well, or get something else that was useful.
Randomness in getting perks was a big problem, because there were too many advanced perks. Sometimes they were all good but prevented you from what you really wanted and other times the perk you wanted were buried among complete rubbish. Alastor is probably good with swift mind, mass confusion and counterspell but I have never ever been able to test it.
Alcibiades wrote:
"Haven't read it all in details, but basically what I see your post boiled down to is more or less what I've said all along, namely return to H5 skill system, but let us choose the perks manually once we have gained acces to the skill through random choice. That way we will have the certain random element that secures variance between game, but we will avoid the frustration of planning a build and then have chance ruin it all (I'm looking at you, Mana Burst and Searing Fires)."
This is good stuff and a good solution for H5. Another solution is to simply have more alternatives than in H5 (1+1 skills, 1+1 perks). More choices makes it easier to navigate in the randomness.
Solution for choosing skills without randomness
The way the series has evolved in H6 with things like ability tiers, reputation and choosing skills freely it is perhaps time to move on, even if I don't like everything in H6.
If skills should be picked without randomness - something that has much merit after all as it is planning and not chance that decides the game - I think that one could pick up an idea from King’s Bounty, i.e. that different skills have different costs depending on things like hero class, reputation and type of skill.
KB was too extreme and linear, it should be some kind of open H5 skillwheel. You get 3 runes or points per level up and spend them as you wish. Perhaps like this for a might hero:
- A might skill cost 3 points, and only 2 if you have the right reputation, and only 1 if it’s a favored skill (H5: defence and leadership for knights - H6: defence for paladins, offence for vindicators).
- Magic skills cost 4 or 3 points depending on reputation.
- Adventure and General skills like enlightenment, logistics, diplomacy, architect, mining etc. could cost 2 points.
That way there is much greater freedom than in H5, while the factions and heroes are still likely to develop more in some fields than others even if there are no X % probabilities.
Just like in H5 it is unlikely to see a wizard with all kinds of mighty skills that together with the right magic makes them unstoppable, but unlike in H5 a wizard hero could still get defence, flaming arrows or tactics or some other key skills.
Then there’s also the question of what kinds of skills should be offered.
Both H5 and H6 have too many useless skills/abilities and too many that are too useful. I agree with krs's opinion "that there should be no garbage skills. All skills should be usefull, but some will be better in some situations than others." But it is easy to say and hard to implement. Typically you always want to get the same “perfect” set. The weak skills are a more serious problem in the H5 randomness, but makes H6 boring: the choices are too easy to make.
Some thoughts on some key topics:
Spells and activated abilities
Spells should return to the mage guild while H6 war cries and H5 activated abilities like exruciating strike, divine guidance, taunt and rush! could be spread out over the skillwheel.
This way might heroes will find ways of using their turns if their spells are too weak or their mana is low, while magic heroes can focus on developing passive skills so that their army gives them time to cast powerful spells. Of course some magic abilities like meditation or counterspell etc would be there for them as tempting investments.
This can be balanced like this:
Might: Lots of passive and some activated abilities, some much needed mass spells.
Magic: Many powerful single target and mass spells, the necessary passive abilities.
Mage guild and war cry hall
I never liked the special war cry building in H5. Especially since many perks like divine guidance could have been war cries. Why two systems for the same thing? And why should we build both mage guild and war cry hall? Slow, expensive and boring.
Mage guild, on the other hand, is much needed! H6 showed that. And there are many more spells than might activated abilites, there's no room for them in the skill wheel (unlike the few war cries).
Randomness in getting spells was a big problem in H5. But researching spells just move the magic problem of H6 from the skill selection to the mage guild menu.
My solution is semi-randomness. Reputation could decide if you get mainly blood or tears spells.
Magic schools
They shouldn’t be too many. The H6 elemental system with 7 schools is good, but every faction should only be able to get 4 of the schools in mage guilds and when leveling up.
Factions should focus on 2 of them, which makes magic specialization cost fewer level up-points and makes spells from the school more common in mage guilds.
To avoid imbalances such as H5 dark magic there should be several ways of dispelling, distributed among the schools. Dispel, purge, cleansing, cure... Alternatively dispel should be an activated ability in sorcery or resistance.
Comments on your posts
Many good ideas from you! Some highlights and questions that were not squeezed in above:
@Elvin
“I also think that hero and unit spells should be separate from unit magical damage. Units require magic defense to withstand the damage from magical units but that greatly reduces the hero's destructive. A champion can easily reduce magic damage by 50% and more. It feels.. messy. It would be much better if you just knew that the damage you see in the tooltip is final and not further reduced for each unit separately.”
Yes, but on the other hand it’s no catastrophe, and it increases the magic hero’s magic creatures attack.
“To avoid inflating the skill system with superfluous advanced abilities, certain perks' effect would be tied to the mastery of its corresponding tree.”
“you have a sense of freedom while keeping the amount of options limited. It should make your decision faster and easier.”
@Dave_Jame
“One thing I disagree with is the reputetion question. I think it would be nice that your game play would influence the skills you could get. For example some higher perks could require Blood or Tear reputation.”
That's a good idea.
@Maurice
While I don’t agree with the scale you want to add Adventure perks I think the core of your argument – that everyone should have the same access – is good and inspiring.
@SepSpring
Your suggestion is very good. A lot of choices, everything is useful! And it has potential for more things to be added:
Some faction specific skills: barbarian luck, runic machines, swift gating etc.
Some things combined unlocking further things (common in H5), as you wrote about magic, even if I didn’t fully get your magic system.
Your link (top of page) could work if the magic schools actually fully matched the factions’ specializations. To some extent it does; like Necropolis + weakening, decay, control (i.e. dark).
But mark of the necromancer (+20% blood) needs destructive and in earth, dark and prime there are only 3 damage spells: acid cloud, agony, implosion.
The real destructive is found in air, fire and water.
@Elvin again
Your version is good too.
“Your spell system sounds a bit complex, it would probably be easy once you saw the skill branches and requirements but I don't see how returning the spells in the skill system would be a good idea. Or those annoying cooldowns.. Spells should be balanced in a way that you don't need a cooldown to prevent you from casting them.”
I think cooldowns are actually good and justified when spells are picked on level up, or you’ll just pick imba fireball and go burninating. But when you have built a mage guild (spent many resources) and got expert fire (spent many levels) you should have the right to cast fireball all the time.
I prefer the latter, it makes the game more interesting.
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted December 17, 2012 02:27 PM |
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Quote:
@SepSpring
Your suggestion is very good. A lot of choices, everything is useful! And it has potential for more things to be added:
Some faction specific skills: barbarian luck, runic machines, swift gating etc.
Some things combined unlocking further things (common in H5), as you wrote about magic, even if I didn’t fully get your magic system.
Thanks!
About my magic system. In order to get spells you have to build a magic guild in your town and spend an ability point of your hero on learning the appropriate magic skill (not spell!). Magic guilds, elemental skills and spells have three levels: basic, advanced, expert. Spells can also be simple (formed by one element) and complex (formed by two or more elements). Skill gives hero access to learning spells of appropriate element and level, guild is the place where he will learn them for a fee (each spell has its price). Guilds of each faction provide spells of different levels and magic schools, heroes of different factions have access to the same spells. For example, Haven guilds provide such spells:
- simple basic, advanced, expert prime;
- simple basic, advanced, expert light;
- simple basic, advanced air;
- simple basic fire;
- complex basic, advanced, expert prime & light;
- complex basic, advanced, expert prime & air (which don't require expert air magic);
- complex basic, advanced, expert prime & fire (which don't require advanced and expert fire magic);
- complex basic, advanced, expert light & air (which don't require expert air magic);
- complex basic, advanced, expert light & fire (which don't require advanced and expert fire magic);
- complex basic, advanced air & fire (which don't require advanced fire magic).
So Haven heroes are able to learn the same spells, other elements and combinations are blocked for them. The Elemental school of the Ability Tree for Haven wizards looks like this:
And the same example:
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Example: your Haven wizard levels up and gets an ability point, he spends it on learning basic air magic (he doesn't have access to all elements but air is available), goes to a friendly town where the guild is already built, chooses those basic simple air spells which he would like to have in his spell book (the "Precision" and "Grounded", for instance), pays for them and uses them in combats later. Then he levels up again, learns advanced air magic, basic fire magic and complex magic from the Wisdom school, returns to his town with a guild, pays for the spells he needs and stores them. Now he is able to learn basic simple air, advanced simple air, basic simple fire, basic complex air & fire, advanced complex air & fire (which don't require the knowledge of advanced fire magic) spells. For example, this time he picks the "Storm Winds" (advanced simple air), "Lightning Bolt" (advanced complex air & fire), "Inner Fire" (basic simple fire) spells.
This is just for Haven. Of course, each faction must have its own restrictions. One more scheme for Sanctuary.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 17, 2012 03:12 PM |
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@SepSpring
Quote:
It can be balanced by making most shooters the troops of low initiative. In this case the melee fighters with high initiative and speed would get chance to come closer and disable the advantage given by the skill. Moreover, it can become an incentive to learn some skills from the Tactics and Leadership schools.
That is why I wrote X instead of any certain figures. The advantage can be moderate enough in order to keep the skills balanced (like the "Ambush" from "Heroes VI").
The problem can be solved by the same approach: increasing speed by 1. Not 2 or 3. The knowledge of spells which influence creatures' initiative, speed, morale is able to oppose this skill.
Ambush is already an indispensable skill in H6 and REALLY harms you if you do not pick it. The other cases have been in H5 and both turned out broken. Crossbowmen had slow init and full range yet that did not stop a knight from casting divine vengeance and massacring arcane archers.. The golden bow(no range penalty) has traditionally been a relic for a good reason. I suspect that the only reason its Ashan equivalent became a major in H6 was because most ranged units have full range anyway - the other being that BH sucked at balancing. And +1 speed? It means the difference between a pitlord or a panther warrior crossing the battlefield on the beginning of their turn or not. Needless to say, it really is too good. Probably one of the key reason why orcs used to rape dungeon in H5 most of the time. Perhaps it would be ok if no unit was able to cross the battlefield in the first place unless maybe with +1 speed AND maxed tactics. High speed units typically have a good initiative which makes them good chargers and short of simultaneous retaliation - a concept that I despise - I don't see how such a basic skill could be ok.
For the record I would have liked your H6 redesign but only if the schools were more self-sufficient. RIght now it would limit the game too much and it already has limited possibilities.
The H6 magic suggestion looks.. complex
@Locksley
How I miss all those crazy H5 builds The armageddon fire resistant knight, the artificial glory warmachinist wizard(morale flaming ballista ftw!), the dark summoner warlock, the aura of swiftness kamikaze warlock and so on.
I wouldn't mind warcries being taught at a hall of warcries but it would probably be more convenient to make them part of the mage guild. And giving might too many or too strong passives would have the same effect as H5, 1-2 turn slaughters. BH was right to weaken the effect of passive abilities though they reached the other extreme and made them useless..
Apart from a random spell per tier, towns specializing in 2-3 schools could work fairly well. H5 towns with 2 primary schools was fine but the spells you learnt still felt insufficient, unlike in previous heroes games. You rarely had the incentive to go for two magic schools and rarer yet that your choice would be an effective one. Of course H5 schools were not as useful for everyone, some had little use for spellpower while others were useless without a high spellpower score, which often made things rather predictable. Only academy was hard to predict and I liked that. With a third school in the mage guild it's no longer a 50-50 guess. Unless of course there were more options to learn spells outside your town.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted December 17, 2012 03:52 PM |
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Quote:
The H6 magic suggestion looks.. complex
It's not for "Heroes VI". Just my idea of perfect magic system which is always very difficult for me to explain. Even in Russian.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted December 17, 2012 04:12 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 16:30, 17 Dec 2012.
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Quote:
@Maurice
While I don’t agree with the scale you want to add Adventure perks I think the core of your argument – that everyone should have the same access – is good and inspiring.
I've come around from that . It was actually something Elvin wrote that made me realise that there aren't that many Adventure map skills to begin with; I think I didn't fully realise that until then, because they're mostly wrapped up with the Might Skills in H6.
As such, the scale should not be as large as I initially stated, only for the core reason why I was championing it in the first place: that they are "neutral" skills, available to Might Heroes and Magic Heroes without discrimination, without carrying a "Might" or "Magic" feel to them.
Your essay is well-thought out; the only thing I wonder is the number of Magic schools you would assign to each faction and the a-symmetry in how far you can develop the side schools (I am a sucker for symmetry in any system ). Also, I wonder how many spells you envisioned, because you are essentially crossing between different school tiers. Or is it generic and simply boosting the spells in the respective schools? Because if you have 7 schools, even if you align them in a circle, then you have 7 cross-sections, where a spell would fall between two school, leading up to quite a lot of spells.
The way I see it, it would be best to have a 3-dimensional "cross": Prime Magic is at the center, and each of the schools are aligned along one of the six angles, with opposing schools diametrically opposing eachother in the 3D cross (Fire vs. Water, Earth vs. Air, Light vs. Darkness). This creates 8 regions (see below), and each faction could be assigned to one of the regions or planes. This would give each faction access to the Prime Magic (essentially colorless), and three non-opposing schools (if in a region) or two sets of two opposing schools (if in a plane).
The 8 Regions would be:
Light - Fire - Air
Light - Fire - Earth
Light - Water - Air
Light - Water - Earth
Darkness - Fire - Air
Darkness - Fire - Earth
Darkness - Water - Air
Darkness - Water - Earth
The 3 Planes would be:
Fire - Water - Earth - Air
Fire - Water - Light - Darkness
Earth - Air - Light - Darkness
From a Lore perspective, only the Plane of Fire - Water - Earth - Air makes any sense to me, the other two Planes do not. The reason for this is that Light and Darkness have a religious annotation, whereas the other four are prime elements of nature.
If we look at the factions that we have had in the past and that we have now, we can make some obvious exclusions and givens:
Haven: Not sure, Humans are very versatile, so I am open to suggestions. Perhaps a focus on Air, and Earth being inaccessible?
Inferno: Can't have access to Water magic, Fire is its core school;
Necropolis: In my opinion, should not have access to Air Magic, Earth should be its core school (this one took me some time, but I think this fits better than my initial assumption of no Light magic, core of Darkness magic - because Necropolis is not considered strictly evil in the world of HoMM);
Dungeon: Should not have access to Light Magic, with Darkness as its core school;
Academy: Should have access to all Nature Magic, none of the religious Magic;
Sylvan: Should not have access to Fire Magic, Earth (? I am not sure about this one ?) Magic should be its primary school;
Fortress: Should not have access to Air Magic, Earth Magic should be its primary school;
Stronghold: Should have access to all Nature Magic, none of the religious Magic;
Naga: Should not have access to Fire Magic, Water Magic should be its primary school;
The idea I am toying with is to have secondary Magic schools that can be developed to be dependent on whether the Hero is a Blood or Tears Hero. I realise this is something that currently only applies to the main Hero, but it should be generalised for all Heroes. Blood is aggressive and destructive, Tears is defensive and focussed on creating things. Depending on which path is chosen, the Hero can develop either the aggressive/destructive side school, or the defensive/creative school.
So, this would give me the following (with Prime being accessible by all):
Haven: focus = Air, Tears gives access to Light and Water, Blood gives access to Darkness and Fire
Inferno: focus = Fire, Tears gives access to Light and Earth, Blood gives access to Darkness and Air
Necropolis: focus = Earth, Tears gives access to Light and Water, Blood gives access to Darkness and Fire
Dungeon: focus = Darkness, Tears gives access to Water and Earth, Blood gives access to Fire and Air
Academy: focus = Fire, Air, Water and Earth equally, Tears boosts Water and Earth, Blood boosts Fire and Air
Sylvan: focus = Earth, Tears gives access to Light and Water, Blood gives access to Darkness and Air
Fortress: focus = Earth, Tears gives access to Light and Water, Blood gives access to Darkness and Fire
Stronghold: focus = Earth and Air, Tears gives access to Water, Blood gives access to Fire
Naga: focus = Water, Tears gives access to Light and Earth, Blood gives access to Darkness and Air
The only one I really have doubts about is Sylvan, since it would unite two opposing elements, as it excludes Fire specifically. Focussing it around Water, however, seems very odd and would essentially make it the same as the Naga. Maybe have it focus on all three natural elements they could have access to, making Tears only add Light and Blood only add Darkness? Necropolis en Stronghold have the same line-up as well, but I don't think that's a bad thing.
I had something similar in mind for the Perks: have the presented Perks of a skill be determined by the path chosen. This would mean that this applies equally to all Magic skills as it does to Might skills, so even if you encounter two Magic Heroes, or two Might Heroes, of the same faction, the chosen path - Tears or Blood - might still make it a completely different experience.
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted December 20, 2012 12:41 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 12:52, 20 Dec 2012.
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Now I’ve read your posts and put together some comments! First I think I should explain my own ideas about magic system a bit more as requested by Maurice.
Distribution of magic schools
A big part in the lack of diversity in H6 is that all factions have access to (almost) all magic the player could want. It’s a balance problem that sanctuary or haven can get blind, petrify, time sasis, light & earth elementals. It’s also a strange mix of spells put together from a weird mix of sources, especially for nagas who live under water.
To get better diversity and also some limits on what can be done with magic every faction should have only 4 of the 7 seven schools, not 5-6 of 7. Unlike Maurice I don’t think there need to be perfect symmetry in this, instead the magic access can be motivated by religion and story elements. This distribution of magic schools is, most of the time, the same as in H6 but every faction gets the school that is the most "wrong" removed from the faction.
Everybody except orcs get prime magic. They also get:
Current factions
Haven– Focus on light and air from their current and previous dragon. Also gets fire because it also give light, OR earth because of the importance of agriculture in feudal societies (please come back, peasants!).
Inferno– dark, fire, earth for the evil faction living in the dark, burning planet core. Focus on prime (Urgash) and fire (destruction).
Necropolis– dark ‘cause they’re stereotypically evil, and the bodies they control are made of earth and water. Focus on prime (Asha) and dark (gives control).
Sanctuary– water of course, light because they are stereotypically good, and air; mainly because air is another weather element and fire and earth are opposed to water. On water and light, they good healers. Alternatively, focus on water and Water and air (current focus in H6) works well too.
Stronghold– Focus on air and earth. Also gets light and dark to accentuate their mix of good and evil.
Other factions
Dungeon– Focus on dark (of course) and earth (underground+former dragon). Also gets water, since it’s cold and wet underground.
Sylvan– Forests grow when they get earth, water and light. Focus on earth (their dragon) and light (elves are stereotypically good and heal nature).
Fortress– The dwarves focus on fire and earth, mining and forging. They also get light because they are stereotypically good, and fire gives light.
Academy– Access to all schools, focus prime (Sar-Elam, 7th dragon) and light because they are stereotypically good and opposed to dark Necropolis. Have special magic buildings etc.
This could work fine with the current H6 system. There’s better diversity and each faction has a distinct identity. No factions focus on the same two magic schools. I think only Necro and Dungeon have the same schools but they focus on different schools, which could be further accentuated by giving Necro and Dungeon magic heroes reputation abilities that focus on Time (N) and Mind (D).
Skills, guilds and spells
That’s how I wish H6 would have looked like. But the “perfect” magic system mentioned in my previous post includes mage guilds. This system should be something like this:
The hero uses ability points to get basic, advanced and expert “magic school”. The point-costs are lower for magic heroes, and gets even lower when they buy skills in a school their faction focuses on. Like in H5 basic, advanced and expert gives access to better spells, and also boosts the spells. Spell power, magic defence and other skill effects also exists. There are many perks, unlocking mass spells and passive abilities.
There are let’s say 3 levels of spells, and to learn each level the hero must have more skills in the school. For every level in the school there are 3 spells. They are either blood, tears or neutral (a few). Every school has the same number of spells of each reputation.
On every level the guild offers 1 spell from each of the 2 focus magic schools and 1 spell from one of the other schools the faction have access to. You must choose the guild’s reputation, and 2 of the 3 spells per level will be of the selected reputation (blood or tears).
Elvin, this way I think that your concern that might heroes will do 1-2 turn slaughters can be avoided. They have good or decent passive and activated might abilities, but they must also pay expensive ability points to be able to cast magic, and magic is important to counter the magic heroes. Might heroes can’t afford focus only on might, but by spending on magic skills they also get fewer might skills. And the magic heroes will have ability points to spend on the might skills they need most, to make sure that might heroes can’t overwhelm them at once.
Maurice, even if I suggested another distribution of magic schools, your symmetry is nice. There are some issues like haven focusing on air while their dragon is light. But overall I think you have managed to match factions with magic in a logical way, based on your principles. I also kind of like how the schools, not the spells, have reputation. No element is only blood or tears (fire for instance can both burn you and warm you), but it also make sense to have schools that focus on a specific purpose.
You put the finger on something strange in Ashan chemistry/magic, that light and dark are just normal elements that mixed with the other four "nature" elements can be used to create or control a specific material, while - at the same time - light and dark are “religious” elements that indicate if a faction is good or evil (I did that too when I distributed magic). Especially the Necropolis is weird, because it is portrayed as evil – dark – but why should dark magic be the best way to handle souls of creatures tied to other dragons than Malassa? And evil/dark weavers shoot dark magic, while they actually are related to Asha’s nightmares.
SepSpring, do I get this right: Everybody can serve a simple glass of water, but only bartenders can mix the complex, stronger stuff? It’s an interesting idea but there’s a challenge to explain in the game which spell different combinations of levels of magic schools and complexity can produce. Planning must be possible. Your system seems similar to the H5 skill wheel where some perks needed perks from two or more skills. Perhaps the mage guild could be organized like that?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 20, 2012 01:42 PM |
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I think many players have come to realize, in a rather sad way, that absoulte free choice is not always as fun as it looks on paper. Free choice without any consequence even less so. I think a frequently unappreciated feature of the H5 skill system was the way the perks were structured, with the 'level 1' (outer circle) perks being very general and the 'level 3' (inner circle) perks being very specialized and often very powerful.
The power of this system was that it left you with the choice, within each skill, of going either wide (i.e. picking several of the outer circle perks that tended to have a very broad application) or going narrow, i.e. focusing towards the inner circle, thereby bypassing some of the outer-circle perks. This is a good skill design, because it leaves you at each point with the choice between several paths - not only did you have the have to choose which skills you picked, you also had to choose which direction of perks you wanted. The fact that some perks were connected to particularly powerful perks in the other trees added to this, because sometimes this ment sacrificing short-term gains in favor of long-term goals - again good game design. Admittedly, the system was not perfect, some trees only had one viable path (going for Elven Luck as a Ranger was not that difficult a choice, even if it ment you had to sacrifice Spoils of War and Tear of Asha Vision  ), and some paths were overly powerful (I'm looking at you, Retribution + Empathy), but that was for fixing.
Those are features I miss in Heroes 6, and also from your suggestions above, unless you would add further perks below the mentioned ones? If picking Offence means you always get those exact three perks, it again reduces variation and increases predictability, both of which are bad things.
On a sidenote, I think one has to be realistic about the possibility for balancing everything perfect. There may in fact be situations where there is no golden middle ground between overpowered and useless. Take a skill like the +1 Movement mentioned above. There are different possibilities: Case A - no creatures can cross battlefield in one turn, either with or without the skill. Skill then has very little value. Case B - no or few creatures can cross the battlefield without the skill, but some or several can with the skill. Skill is now very powerful, may even be overpowered. Case C - many creatures can cross the battlefield even without the skill. Skill is now rather pointless again.
So which one of these cases make for the better game? I don't think there's a binary answer to that. Of course one can think the skill into a larger frame of either synergy skills (they can't cross with this skill alone, but can with this skill and another skill) or different levels of the skill (only at expert level can they cross in one turn), but this leaves some other issues, because having such a hair-tight balance on this skill leaves you very little room for variation between movement range for creatures within the factions, less the skill becomes super powerful with the faction that has the high movement as one of their traits. So this may result in very similar (if balanced!) factions, and is that more fun?
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 20, 2012 01:59 PM |
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I kind of liked the way H4 used the death + nature combination where possession of a certain grimoire allowed you to summon demons. But beyond some interlinked effects between schools it can get confusing.
Btw the might&magic portal contains a more detailed account on what magic each faction focuses on.
- For the Wizards, however, Magic is simply a higher form of knowledge that must be developed through extensive study of arcane lore (mainly the teachings of Sar-Elam) and a rigorous discipline. Instead of praying to the Spirits, Wizards bend them to their will.
The main source of their magic is therefore in the spirits that serve them and the artifacts they create or collect, in which spirits of all magnitude are bound. Wizards are masters of all schools of magic with no discrimination. Their search for power and knowledge gives them access to all existing spells and has led them to develop new ways to use and combine them.
[Multiple schools, the idea of combination is intriguing.]
- Dark Elves favour Dark Magic, the alien magic of the mysterious, unfathomable shadows. Coils of darkness reach out to smite their enemies, torches extinguish themselves, blindness descends on enemy eyes. Other spells specialize in deception and stealth, and the most powerful summon the spirit of the void itself, to feed on the willpower of their enemies.
[Void more or less alludes to prime but then all dragon-related factions are supposed to have access to that. As Sylanna former worshippers I wouldn't be surprised if they kept their affinity with earth.]
- Dwarves mainly rely on Fire magic, the ruthless magic that consumes the weak but gives strength and purpose to the strong. Apart from the deadly fire spells, their magic is mainly used to instill strength in warriors, forge objects and help during sieges.
Runic inscriptions are omnipresent in Dwarf society and many Dwarves have runic tattoos on their skin. Each rune corresponds to a spell, an open door for communication between the physical world and the spiritual world. Runes allow the physical properties of an object to be channeled to the Rune bearer.
[Fire, enchantments and runes Possibly light if H5 is any indication and you just cannot have dwarves without earth.]
- Supported by the few Angels remaining, the citizens of the Holy Empire pray to Elrath in exchange for blessings and miracles. In this system of belief, magic power is proportional to faith. Angels are a bit different. Being an elder race directly related to Elrath, they have an innate affinity with Light magic and its principles of Truth, Justice, and Perfection.
[Light and as former Ylath worshippers they no doubt have air magic as well. In duel of champions the starter haven hero has light-air.]
- Demon magic is drawn from raw Chaos and destructive by nature. In its simplest form, it manifests as blasts of pure destruction. Overall, Demons show an unsurpassed ability to use corrupted versions of the regular elemental manifestations of Magic, with an unsurprising predilection for the sphere of Fire, and a no less expected rejection of the sphere of Light.
[Mostly fire and prime but they do not seem to shy away from elemental magic they are so adept to corrupt. Only water and light would feel wrong here.]
- Necromancers, like all followers of Sar-Elam, do not revere the Dragons as Gods but rather as Enlightened Beings and powerful spiritual symbols.
They consider that Magic lies within them and must be developed through extensive study of arcane lore (mainly the teachings of Sar-Elam) and a rigorous discipline.
That said, they have a deep respect for Asha, which is almost religious in nature, and another point of dissension with their (once) fellow Wizards. Necromancers have an obvious fascination for Prime Magic, which grants them control over Time, Space, and the Spirit. Among the Elemental spheres they favour Darkness and Earth, which offer interesting combinations with their Undead minions.
To interact with the spirits of the Dead, they have developed their own branch of Dark magic, which they call Necromancy.
[Prime, earth, dark. Necromancy could actually work as an addition to dark magic just as much as a racial.]
- Nagas are masters of the quiet magic sphere of Water, that renders the body and the mind as malleable as a liquid. They place much store in wisdom and in study. For this reason, their magic tends to work overtime and build gradually to a smashing crescendo. Attack spells may echo the effects of tidal waves or hurricanes; blessings permit the troops to attack in unstoppable waves; curses leave the enemy slowed and off balanced.
[Water, air apparently. The curses part is unclear but it doesn't have to mean dark.]
- As they were created then enslaved by the Wizards, Orcs generally hate magic. But they are not stupid. They know that magic is real, and that there are many connections between the visible, material world and the invisible spirit world. Because they are a created race, Orcs don¢t belong to Asha¢s natural order and have no connection to the Dragon Gods. As a result their magic is not a form of worship of the Dragons and their spirit servants, nor is it a mental discipline based on study and practice, like the Wizards¢ arcane path. Rather, it is their Demon blood that grants them access to a limited form of Chaos Magic.
Orc Shamans use bloodletting rituals, and to conjure the more powerful spells they will require other Orcs or Goblins to join them. Sometimes they don¢t ask approval from the participants, and sometimes, they need so much blood that they have to bleed their co-ritualists dry.
[Typically Ashan orcs have been portrayed as air-earth but at the same time not as typical spellcasters. It would be great if orcs only had iconic native spells such as sky/earth totem, father sky's wrath, mother sky's blessing as well as ritualistic magic that requires sacrifices.]
- The Earth governs the harmony of Nature including the mineral, vegetal and animal realms. It is related to Stone, Wood and Flesh. It also represents instinct and the awareness in the world. The Elves call upon Earth magic to protect Asha¢s initial creation, her garden, venerating the first tree. Magic comes naturally to them, for they know it is theirs when their purpose is clear. They are guardians of life itself.
[Pretty much earth, light, prime.]
Prime is omnipresent really except for the orcs that do not worship the Dragon Gods, with necro being the most specialized at it. And with a useful all-around spell combination(haste, slow, teleport, implosion, mana leech, time stasis, disrupting ray), having it accessible to most factions works well. The way magic is envisioned, a faction could house 4 magic or 2-3 core ones and have the remaining slots give spells from a random element as long as the faction is not opposed to it. There should be no problem in allowing random spells as long as the faction's heroes can only specialize in their chosen magic.
Necromancy could theoretically work like runes in H5 and appear as faction-themed magic. I'd actually like that.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted December 20, 2012 07:43 PM |
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Locksley, yes, this is what I meant.
Quote:
Your system seems similar to the H5 skill wheel where some perks needed perks from two or more skills. Perhaps the mage guild could be organized like that?
I think it will be the optimum decision for such magic system.
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