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| Thread: Skill System Redesign |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted July 07, 2014 02:31 PM |
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So if I understand you correctly the subskills would be like regulary secondary skills, but with prerequisites? and are they also racial specific?
If they take the place of secondary skills, they need to be equally usefull. It would be an interesting trade-off between specializing in a skill by taking its subskills, or taking more different secondary skills.
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted July 07, 2014 08:55 PM |
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Yeah, sort of like that. Subskills have prerequisites and certain factions get their own subskills for the right racial/ main skill combo. It would be a snow to balance, but when has any developer properly balanced their skills? 
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 27, 2014 05:53 AM |
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I hope Heroes 7 will be like heroes 6, but not buggy, with 2 possible upgrades per creature instead of just 1, with more skills, spells and a tad longer cooldown on them so people can't just dump 27 passives and 3 skills - spells.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 17, 2014 10:57 AM |
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kayna said:
I hope Heroes 7 will be like heroes 6
I really hope not.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted August 17, 2014 11:35 AM |
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Galaad said:
kayna said:
I hope Heroes 7 will be like heroes 6
I really hope not.
I second that. I did not play H6 because all I saw and heard really drove me away from it and I really hope I can return to the series on H7.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 17, 2014 12:12 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 12:17, 17 Aug 2014.
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Well going by the latest info most of the bad ideas of H6 have been undone, we're back up to 7 resources, city conversions and global recruitment are out, spells are separate and war machines are back.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 03:36 AM |
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I don't like the randomness of hero skills. Luck is opposed to strategy so luck related game aspects must come in moderation AND it doesn't make sense. It should be the reverse ; if you fight your battles like a might, you have a selection of skills related to might ; if you fight mostly using magic, you should have a selection of magic skills at lvl up.
Keep shooting all the time? Get a shooting skill upgrade at lvl up. Keep casting spells? Get some spell skill upgrade at lvl up.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 09:44 AM |
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Ah, you're one of these people who doesn't like anything more randomised than chess then. Sorry, luck has always been an inherent part of the heroes games, and while I agree that it can go too far, it remains a necessary element. That said, I've always disliked the random skill selection idea, I feel a reworking of the system is long overdue.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted August 18, 2014 01:47 PM |
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No. I like a certain luck in a strategy game. All I said was that it must come in moderation.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted August 18, 2014 03:09 PM |
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Elvin said:
So what should the system be, random or manual? I think that a combination would work well enough...
I think you're spot on with that. Both are needed.
I'd like a Class/Race (could be twin roads for each Hero type) dedicated everything in specific basics and we would elect from all available for our initial focuses but after that lots of random pathways. This could play out in all areas.
On a lesser note; I liked H5 systems pretty well (Specializations very much, but less OP) and for me expanding everything would have been a great step also. Lots more magic, skills and perks for lots of variety.
The thing I didn't like about H5 was 6 slots and even worse was that an adventure map skill (logistics)was not really available (2%) for two factions. Maybe on a scripted campaign with smaller maps that didn't matter much but on a XL/huge map, late game always had the Wizards and Dwarves at a serious disadvantage. Heroes like Grok could run circles around them. No more of that stuff in the future...please.
____________
"Do your own research"
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Karanshade
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 05, 2014 11:54 AM |
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I havent't had time to go through all those multiple post.
I'll just add my only wish which is a basic game design principle.
postulate 1 :
Randomness is not good in a strategic game. You have to be able to get the game influenced by your choices vs your opponent choices and not lose due to some 'string of bad luck' (or win due to an improbable string of luck)
Postulate 2 :
leveling up is more fun with some randomness. Much to my surprise actually , before H6 I was partisan of no randomness in skill , but it's true that i was missing that little realease of endorphin given by the gift of a good skill and leveling up was a bit blend almost a non event in terms of pleasure.
So as a conclusion , I propose a simple principle
If skills would be randomly chosen at level up , their EFFECTS must go toward reducing random element in combat (or adventure), even if they might also increase some statistics. Ensured luck strike(s) at a choosen time for instance.
How I see it is , fighting with a newb leader will be pretty luck dependant , you don't control morale , critical stikes , rewards from picking a bunch of crystal (is there 1 or 5 , I need 3 for my building).
The more experienced your leader , the higher control on the fight you should have , a caster will have more spells , and those would be more reliable. A fighter would have some tricks up his sleeves , some maneuvers he can keep , threatening a knowing opponent , crushing a rekless one.
Let's say you pick a magic resist skill like +10% MR , it should have the side effect 'you can choose to protect (in a counterspell fashion) one stack from the effect of one spell per combat'.
A +10% luck perk should also have , you can decide to get one lucky strike per battle without rolling.
Then you can easily get both passive and Active effects and active effects. And you can design counterplays in the active effects.
A defensive skill +2 def or +% def could also have you can reduce the damage from one ennemy attack by (half , 60% whatever) once per battle. Which can then be used to counter the luck active.
Will I use my lucky draw now knowing he can counter it or will I try to force the defensive active before ?
active effects would be decided to be used 'on the spot' and don't count toward the one spell per turn.
Hence an experienced leader simply gets to manipulate fight with cunning choices (or lose due to an opponent being just more cleaver in this choices of active effects).
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Karanshade
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 05, 2014 11:58 AM |
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and excuse the multiple errors , I haven't been writing in English for quite a while 
(ofc i meant clever choices not cleaver choices ^^)
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 18, 2015 11:54 AM |
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bump
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 19, 2015 08:17 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 20:25, 19 Apr 2015.
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The recent discussions on the H7 forum suggest that people are not on the same page regarding the benefits and flaws of the H5 system. Some assume that a system closer to H5 would be bad because of a particular flaw, overlooking its good aspects while others find it so good that they would happily overlook its issues. As such I would like to focus more on the general guidelines and their implementation in such a system.
One of the better parts of H5 was dividing the skills into distinct categories, with their own thematic ability tree. The structure and ability progression could use some work but the concept of three basic abilities unlocking more advanced abilities is a good place to start. Preferably, the advanced abilities would be thematically tied with the basic ability that unlocks them so as to give a sense of progression. Also, I would argue that a mix of skill mastery and ability requirements would be for the best.
Why? In case of no ability requirements, the amount of abilities would have to be quite limited because you would have no way of planning your build. With ability requirements you can manipulate the advanced abilities that will appear in future level ups and avoid some abilities altogether. That was very much possible in H5 and the amount of randomness at the time was high.
Those who have played me know that I rarely got a build wrong. With memory mentor the odds of not getting my desired build were even rarer. That was not a matter of luck, I just knew how to influence my level up offers by playing the odds. Even 8% skills of my choice, I could almost guarantee getting them within the first 10 levels of every game. Almost Obviously there were times I got them later and some very few instances I never got them at all but that happened far less often that one would think. And when that happened I could usually adapt and go for a decent alternative.
That was another aspect of H5 that I loved. There were more than a few viable builds and I could adapt my strategy based on the choices I was offered. Whether in the form of offered skills, artifacts or spells. Adapting is a crucial aspect of any strategy game and controlled randomness is one of the most important aspects of the series. It ensures replayability and promotes critical thinking as opposed to 'standard' choices. At the same time I agree that this kind of randomness should be toned down, which calls for less complex requirements.
TL;DR
Here is an example of the defense skill. Basic defense unlocks three basic abilities, corresponding to its three central themes:
  
Vitality(hp bonus) , for army toughness.
Evasion(ranged damage reduction), for avoidance.
Counterstrike(increased retaliation damage) for retaliations.
Advanced defense would then allow you to pick advanced abilities from each theme:
Vitality unlocks Stand your Ground(bonus defense when defending) and Last Stand(the last unit of a stack survives with 1hp from attacks that would have otherwise killed it). Themed around withstanding physical force.
Evasion unlocks Parry(reduce melee damage from attacks that come after you have spent your retaliation) and Tactical Retreat(units retreat a tile to the back to avoid an incoming melee attack after having been attacked 2 times. Themed around preventing damage.
Counterstrike unlocks Preparation(when defending your retaliation comes before the first enemy attack) and Defensive Harmony(when a unit is attacked, adjacent allies get a free attack at the attacker for x% of its normal damage). Themed around punishing attackers.
As always the abilities are mere examples so they don't have to be innovative or balanced. The three different paths might as well have been defense against melee, defense against ranged and defense against magic. The idea is that your hero has three different approaches to defense so that two heroes from the same class can develop it differently.
But we also want faction differences. So while there may be some generic advanced perks that everyone has, the focus of a class should be more distinct. So a knight would focus more on counterstrike, a ranger on dodging and a barbarian on resilience. They would all get the three basic abilities but their advanced abilities would differ. So while a barbarian would have a unique advanced ability on resilience, his advanced abilities on avoidance would be limited.
I appreciate what H7 has done with the racials but cramming all faction unique abilities in one skill just doesnąt work as well. Racial skills tend to be better than the rest so at least in H7 I can see all heroes levelling their racial in all games which does not have much to say about build flexibility. But if you disperse faction abilities throughout the skill system you wonąt be seeing the same abilities picked in every single game.
The other benefit of having a three path system is that you give room for general strengths and weaknesses. You would have to carefully consider what is strong against what and what your choices might leave you exposed to - kind of like rock, paper, scissors. Not in absolute terms, where youąd risk insta-losing a match if you focused entirely on the skills your opponent has a counter to of course. But you should think twice about putting all your eggs in one basket. I believe that skills and abilities should be developed with that in mind. Magic as well. It would be a good thing if some spells only targeted a group of units like ranged, walker or flyer.
Skills should be designed as part of a whole and not independently. I donąt just want a skill bonus, I want a skill bonus that would make my choice meaningful, that would make me consider what the opponent has picked. And I also want a healthy balance between combat and adventure map skills. To give adventure map skills the power to match combat skills, to allow them to make an impact by the time you can face a combat savvy enemy. Whether by having a sped up exploration, a better resource or town management, more recruits or other adventuring advantages. What I mean is that they should be good enough for a main hero to use and not designed as dump skills for secondary nobodies. It should require investing some level ups on it and pay off in kind. I am not suggesting they should make an equal amount of adventure and combat skills but one adventure skill should not be considered as one less skill during combat.
    
One last word about situational abilities. They should definitely be part of the system but always as advanced abilities and as powerful abilities at that. We do not want core abilities to be situational and their situational usefulness should be balanced by the powerful effect they bring when the situation calls for it.
But garbage skills? Just no. I have heard arguments that they are part of a gamer's growth as he learns the game better, eventually picking more efficient ones. What it really accomplishes is some people picking them a few times in the beginning and never using them again. An exercise in pointlessness if I ever saw one. But if every ability is useful it will see play, even if some are picked more consistently than others. The more playable abilities, the more replayability the game gets.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2015 08:38 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:48, 19 Apr 2015.
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If I had the ability to give you QPs Elvin, I would've given you two for that post  You completely nail down some very good points which up until now kept eluding me. And you made it look easy. A remarkable post.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 19, 2015 09:09 PM |
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I love you too?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 19, 2015 11:53 PM |
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Elvin said:
Here is an example of the defense skill. Basic defense unlocks three basic abilities, corresponding to its three central themes:
Vitality(hp bonus) , for army toughness.
Evasion(ranged damage reduction), for avoidance.
Counterstrike(increased retaliation damage) for retaliations.
Advanced defense would then allow you to pick advanced abilities from each theme:
Vitality unlocks Stand your Ground(bonus defense when defending) and Last Stand(the last unit of a stack survives with 1hp from attacks that would have otherwise killed it). Themed around withstanding physical force.
Evasion unlocks Parry(reduce melee damage from attacks that come after you have spent your retaliation) and Tactical Retreat(units retreat a tile to the back to avoid an incoming melee attack after having been attacked 2 times. Themed around preventing damage.
Counterstrike unlocks Preparation(when defending your retaliation comes before the first enemy attack) and Defensive Harmony(when a unit is attacked, adjacent allies get a free attack at the attacker for x% of its normal damage). Themed around punishing attackers.
As always the abilities are mere examples so they don't have to be innovative or balanced. The three different paths might as well have been defense against melee, defense against ranged and defense against magic. The idea is that your hero has three different approaches to defense so that two heroes from the same class can develop it differently.
Yes, this is exactly how a good skill system should be designed! This has all the best elements of the H5 system and avoids all the bad elements (like Destructive Magic, where Fire path had a gazilion perks and Ice and Storms path had almost nothing. Also a simple 3x3 layout for perks will be easy to understand and easy to navigate.
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What will happen now?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 20, 2015 10:35 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 10:35, 20 Apr 2015.
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Elvin said:
I love you too?
I just have to ask, do you think of the one basic to advanced to expert ability as being the only way to go about it or more like the standard way? For instance, would there be cases where two basic abilities would lead to an expert one like in some cases of Heroes 5? And what do you think about external prerequisites?
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Limbic-Jaelle
Shaper of Lore
Communication Management, Limbic Ent.
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posted April 20, 2015 11:11 AM |
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Hey fellas,
We are currently preparing a statement regarding the skillwheel mechanism. Could you please share with us your main concerns and questions (in bullet points) regarding this Topics, so we can integrate them in the feedback of our gamedesigners?
Important information: In this state of the game, there will be no changes in the system and the mechanics. We would like to answer your question and concerns regarding this topic.
Thanks for your help and passion!
Cheers, Limbic-Jaelle
Short addition: This request is, to make things more clear, where it's needed. That's why we asked precisely for the open questions here.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 20, 2015 12:22 PM |
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Elvin's post pretty much says the way I look at it. I guess I never expressed it quite as eloquently.
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