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| Thread: Skill System Redesign |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted April 20, 2015 12:23 PM |
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kayna said:
I hope Heroes 7 will be like heroes 6, but not buggy, with 2 possible upgrades per creature instead of just 1, with more skills, spells and a tad longer cooldown on them so people can't just dump 27 passives and 3 skills - spells.
Here's an interesting comment from a very experienced player that went a little bit overlooked. The question is how many active abilities do you really need?
I think we can all agree that using an ability point on an active ability and then not using it in the duel (alternatively final battle) is a huge waste since you could put this ability point to some passive skill. Now let's assume that you can use each spell/warcry/ability only once (which is not the worst idea) during a combat. I'd say that you only need about 6-8 active hero abilities (spells, warcries, etc). Most games won't last longer than 6-7 turns (if you dont count the ending when you slaughter the remnants).
We know that in H7 you will acquire warcries/spells w/o spending ability points. A Hero will have 5 Warcries and some basic spells or around 10+ spells.
My point is that in H7 skill system i don't think we need active abilities.
Elvin said:
In case of no ability requirements, the amount of abilities would have to be quite limited because you would have no way of planning your build. With ability requirements you can manipulate the advanced abilities that will appear in future level ups and avoid some abilities altogether. That was very much possible in H5 and the amount of randomness at the time was high.
I'm more of a duelist but i agree that there should be randomness (to increase replayability and to not allow players to simply fallow a certain path) and some requirements. I think that the current H7 "skillwheel" with random choices could work. I'm not sold on requirements from other skill trees (at least not many of them - it complicates the system by a lot).
Elvin said:
Adapting is a crucial aspect of any strategy game and controlled randomness is one of the most important aspects of the series. It ensures replayability and promotes critical thinking as opposed to 'standard' choices. At the same time I agree that this kind of randomness should be toned down, which calls for less complex requirements.
it sounds good but casuals need to get the system quickly. I remember that i had big troubles understanding H5 skill system and i'm a vet. But yes - you've described the ideal.
Elvin said:
  
Vitality(hp bonus) , for army toughness.
Evasion(ranged damage reduction), for avoidance.
Counterstrike(increased retaliation damage) for retaliations.
Advanced defense would then allow you to pick advanced abilities from each theme:
Vitality unlocks Stand your Ground(bonus defense when defending) and Last Stand(the last unit of a stack survives with 1hp from attacks that would have otherwise killed it). Themed around withstanding physical force.
Evasion unlocks Parry(reduce melee damage from attacks that come after you have spent your retaliation) and Tactical Retreat(units retreat a tile to the back to avoid an incoming melee attack after having been attacked 2 times. Themed around preventing damage.
Counterstrike unlocks Preparation(when defending your retaliation comes before the first enemy attack) and Defensive Harmony(when a unit is attacked, adjacent allies get a free attack at the attacker for x% of its normal damage). Themed around punishing attackers.
(.....)
Skills should be designed as part of a whole and not independently. I donąt just want a skill bonus, I want a skill bonus that would make my choice meaningful, that would make me consider what the opponent has picked.
But garbage skills? Just no. I have heard arguments that they are part of a gamer's growth as he learns the game better, eventually picking more efficient ones. What it really accomplishes is some people picking them a few times in the beginning and never using them again. An exercise in pointlessness if I ever saw one. But if every ability is useful it will see play, even if some are picked more consistently than others. The more playable abilities, the more replayability the game gets.
Totally agree that each skill should be a meaningful choice which implies that no skill is garbage. I've heard this argument about player progression in DoC as well but i consider it lazy design. Maybe it's a case of a lie that repeated many times becomes truth (however Harthstone, which I consider well designed has some underpowered creatures so maybe there is sth to it).
I see some problems though:
1. Feedback to players
Some complained that in H6 there were too many creature abilities and i agree to some extend. Elvin's proposal will create many passives. Now let's place ourselves in a beginner's shoes and right click on a creature and see around 20 different icons with abilities. How can he remember and adjust to each of them in around 30 seconds that is allotted to make a move in a duel. Anybody would be confused.
H6 alleviated this problem a bit by changing skills like offense (+x% to attack) to passive major skill buffs (like +x attack). I'm sure that this is a correct approach IF we have a skill that is basically a stat. There is absolutely no reason to create a perk that has the same effect as stats since everybody understands and checks hero's stats but not everyone is familiar with each ability. However, I'd say that we don't really need skills that are basically stats equivalents. Perks should be totally different from stats.
So let's divide offensive skills to create meaningful choices: archery (+x to archers or sth that helps archers) and attack (+x to melees ot sth that helps melees) (alternatively attack: +x to walkers and ambush: +x to flyers/teleporters) and you will choose the one you need depending on your army composition. My problem is: i just can't imagine that the current system will create meaningful choices, in 99% of cases you want both archery and attack which makes it a stats counterpart - sth that perks should not become.
It is a topic for a whole another discussion but when you're playing a duel, one has to right click on creatures many times. Every time sb right clicks - it means that the game fails to deliver some piece of information and forces the player to make unnecessary moves that inhibits a gamer from the core of the duel: solving the puzzle, trying to find the most efficient way of dealing with the current board situation. If you add more passives, players will have to right click more. There are many ways to give visuals signs like i dunno: a ready pose when he can retaliate and another pose when the creature cannot retaliate any longer etc.
2. M&M team ability to balance the skills
i have no faith, does anyone? Let's be honest our greatest hope is to have a bug free game. We set a very low bar and i dont know if we can expect a high level of polish.
3. we can choose too many abilities
I know that this will be controversial but i really think that, especially for duels, 30 skills to choose is too many to make them meaningful and, at the same time, easy to learn and adapt in a battle. From the Skillwheel we know that there are 53 abilities. 30 of them is 57%, when you deduct 10 (Diplomacy and Explorer) 30/43 = 70% and i'm sure that there will be some garbage skills or skills that you don't really need (like some magic skills if you're a might hero). If you can choose 90%+ of relevant skills how many meaningful choices can you have?
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In Elvin's example he created a skill tree:
Defense (Novice rank skill -> Expert -> Master)
- Vitality -> Stand your Ground -> Last Stand
- Evasion -> Parry -> Tactical Retreat
- Counterstrike -> Preparation -> Defensive Harmony
Thoughts:
- this is more or less how the system looks in H6 (and there is nothing wrong with that!)
- I understand that in the end there should be some special ability (a Grandmaster lvl skill - maybe a racial) with pre-requirements that might involve skills from other trees
- As far as i understand H7 system, in H7 Vitality would unlock all expert rank skills (Stand your Ground, Parry, Preparation) and choosing one expert skill would unlock Master rank skills (Last Stand, Tactical Retreat, Defensive Harmony). Not sure if this is a better way, but I don't think that Evasion should unlock Parry since you should choose one depending on enemy army composition.
- there might be some bonus for unlocking Defense but it should not be sth like +10% defense but the same effect demonstrated in stats (e.g.: +2 def in H5)
Elvin said:
I appreciate what H7 has done with the racials but cramming all faction unique abilities in one skill just doesnąt work as well. Racial skills tend to be better than the rest so at least in H7 I can see all heroes levelling their racial in all games which does not have much to say about build flexibility. But if you disperse faction abilities throughout the skill system you wonąt be seeing the same abilities picked in every single game.
I think you're right but i think this is only true if each/most racials are stronger than other skills which doesnt have to be the case. I dunno if the same holds true if only some of them are better than average.
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TL DR:
- I mostly agree with Elvin's ideas.
- i feel like 30 is too many skills to choose, specially for duels mode
- game feedback to players in Heroes in poor
- i don't think balancing will be high on Ubi's priority list
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 20, 2015 04:45 PM |
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NamelessOrder said:
Here's an interesting comment from a very experienced player that went a little bit overlooked. The question is how many active abilities do you really need?
Abilities like divine guidance, retaliation strike, mark of the damned etc probably not so many, as it is not in your best interest to learn more than a few. But spells? As many as possible, provided that you do not have to invest too many skills in learning/improving them. It doesn't matter if the game has 100 spells but a class can only learn 15 or so, this makes for a very limited gameplay experience. Because who is gonna pick more than 2 magic skills when a magic school requires 4-6 skill points on average? Too many active spells (many of which will not see play), not nearly enough passive bonuses. I will cover this better in a later update.
NamelessOrder said:
In Elvin's example he created a skill tree:
Defense (Novice rank skill -> Expert -> Master)
- Vitality -> Stand your Ground -> Last Stand
- Evasion -> Parry -> Tactical Retreat
- Counterstrike -> Preparation -> Defensive Harmony
Thoughts:
- this is more or less how the system looks in H6 (and there is nothing wrong with that!)
Not at all. What I meant was that the basic ability unlocks either one or the other. I am not against abilities that unlock one advanced which unlocks one expert but that leaves you with fewer options. Fewer potential builds.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted April 20, 2015 07:21 PM |
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Some scoff these "garbage" skills and abilities, yes. I can only say the skills and abilities can be useful depending on a situation. While you may never have use of Navigation in a scenario without water, you may, however, find it useful later, when playing a campaign.
But as the hero progresses, the player may still find some skills or abilities less useful, like Scholar, Eagle Eye, Vitality or similar ones, since he already has a powerful army and has learned all the spells he can.
My suggestion is that skills and abilities progress with the hero as well, but only certain ones. Let's say a hero has Basic Defense secondary skill that reduces damage by 5%. He can already become lv. 3 with Expert Defense, which reduces damage to 15%. But the player may find it a bit too low, so when the hero has progressed far, it is possible, via some means (like the Pendant of Mastery from H5) to give further development of Defense skill, allowing it to reduce damage equal to 15% + 1% per two levels of the hero (since one would be too much).
As much as I love the H3, H4 and H5 skill systems, they are but a basis for future development.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 21, 2015 02:10 PM |
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Erwan le Breton said:
We totally accept the fan feedback when it comes to making the experience better for them in terms of playstyle, and having a Heroes that's as close as possible to the original formula.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 21, 2015 04:49 PM |
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 22, 2015 12:27 AM |
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Here's a few off-the-wall ideas:
* A skill that gives (a small amount) of experience per day for doing nothing. Not much experience, say 50/100/150.
* A skill that allows you to build roads on the map itself at a couple of spaces a day.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 25, 2015 02:32 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 23:35, 25 Apr 2015.
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Some words on the luck skill. I love lucky attacks as much as the next guy and it will always be the skill's trademark but I feel that luck could be so much more. Here is one possibility:
Three paths: Fortune on adventure map, Luck in combat, Enemy misfortune.
A) Treasure Hunter(increased gold/resources from piles and chests) is a good basic ability for the first path. Advanced abilities could be Lucky Find(increased rewards from quests or adventure map locations) and Fortunate Encounter (reduces the odds of upgraded units appearing in unupgraded neutral stacks and also converts a number of upgraded units to unupgraded in upgraded neutrals).
[The reasoning behind the latter would be that if you saw lots of colossi on the adventure map it would be rarer that some of them would appear as titans in battle. And if you saw titans on the adventure map, a number of them would appear as colossi if you attacked them.]
B) Soldier's Luck (chance-based abilities trigger more often) is a classic core ability. Advanced abilities could be Lucky Strike  (lucky attacks get bonus damage) and Chaos magic (destructive and summoning spells are affected by luck).
C) Jinx (reduces enemy luck) is the core ability of the third path. Advanced abilities could be Fickle Magic (enemy spells can misfire, costing more mana, having a reduced duration or doing less damage) and Stolen Destiny (every time you get a lucky hit on an enemy, his luck is reduced for a round)
This redesign reuses some H7 ideas but rebalances them in a structure that makes sense and promotes a gameplay choice. Basic abilities all useful in earlygame, advanced ones further promote the path's theme. Resistance never made much sense under luck but it makes sense as an expression of chaos over spellcasting. It doesn't have to completely block spells and certainly not 50% of the time - H7 ability is imbalanced as hell - but it would certainly be fun if it worked like the effect of H5 goblin witchdoctors. I loved it when enemy spells backfired ^^
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 25, 2015 02:40 PM |
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Once again, the fans come with something better than what Ubisoft offers. How surprising!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 25, 2015 02:47 PM |
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And once again, Ubisoft couldn't care less. How surprising!
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GMnemonic
Hired Hero
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posted April 27, 2015 03:56 AM |
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About the skill system,
I believe for many, it is nerved way too far.
here are not enough spells, and I do not like Ubi preconfiguring every hero with its possible skills.
I did not like homm 6's system beacause it will create some ultimate builds. I much prefer random findings on the map with the possibility to unlearn a few at specific locations. This makes the game far more interresting immersive and varied.
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GMnemonic
Hired Hero
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posted April 27, 2015 04:01 AM |
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By the way it is wrong for Ubisoft not to change the systems and just postpone the game a year or so. That is needed as was last time.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 27, 2015 06:43 AM |
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I do not like hero classes having a limited skill pool either, this can backfire in so many ways.. How long before x class is branded as underpowered and people stop using it? It is much harder to assess the power of a class before multiplayer testing. On the other hand you can't have all those skills that H7 offers pop up randomly. That would be messy.
What I'd want is some 15 or so skills that every class can use(save 1-2 banned or limited skills) and a return to two hero classes per faction, one for might and one for magic. Fewer classes yet more variety in hero builds.
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Ultimates are a bad idea, they work against creativity and build variety. They would be nice if they really restricted your build in some way, if they had some sort of weakness to make up for their power. But that is not easy to balance.
Instead, I'd much rather give a unique class bonus for mastering two specific skills like in H4. Something like light + defense allowing your knight to become a paladin or at least gain a paladin ability. A decent ability to reward your choice but not too powerful so as not to get in the way of choice.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted April 27, 2015 08:51 AM |
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GMnemonic said:
here are not enough spells
i'm pretty sure that 56 spells are enough
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BTW. Endless Legend was designed by people who designed H6 (and Endless Legend was critically acclaimed, GOTY 2014 by RPS) and this is their skilltree:
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 03, 2015 12:48 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 12:51, 03 May 2015.
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On the concern of 7 magic schools being too many
Let's begin with the obvious disadvantages.
a) Most might skills/abilities are passive so the more they get the better. Most magic skills/abilities boost a specific magic school of which you can cast one spell per turn, in a battle of limited turns. Since the magic skills you have do not stack, the less you get, the better.
b) Magic heroes also face the risk of not getting the spells they want from the guild. Even if one magic element is guaranteed in your town, there are 5-6 other elements that make it hard to plan ahead. And if we had 2 elements guaranteed, that would feel.. restrictive.
c) Also, having 7 magic schools requires the design of numerous skills, further bloating the skill system out of proportion. In a random skill system either you leave all magic schools in and you have absolutely no idea what to expect from your level ups or you remove 3-4 of them from each class, limiting their potential and replayability. No matter how you look at it, it is a messy situation.
Here's the idea, keep the 7 magic elements but reduce the magic skills to 4 according to their type: Light, Dark, Summoning and Destructive. Each element would have a bit of everything even if they would have certain type preferences. In a random mage guild the 4 types would average out.
   
Here is how this could work: Suppose nagas have light, water, prime, earth and air with dark and fire banned. They can learn all low level spells from those elements. But to learn higher level spells, their magic skill should correspond with the spell type they want to learn.
Geyser would require Destructive magic.
Ink Warrior would require Summoning.
Frozen Ground would require Dark.
Icy Weapon would require Light.
So a naga hero with destructive would be able to learn geyser, lightning bolt, earthquake or sunburst, whichever he happened to learn in his guild, a shrine or a guarded crypt. But the point is he would be guaranteed to get something from his gameplay of choice.
We could keep the number of spells to 8 for a total of 56 but unlike the current system, a hero would be able to learn a lot more spells without picking too many dead weight skills. An inquisitor would not have to be limited to 3 magic schools out of 7. And still, due to the preset elemental affinities, an inferno destructive hero would be different from a haven or naga destructive hero. Would be even better if we could add 1-2 faction-themed abilities in each magic skill.
Speaking of which..
Currently each skill has 3 tier 1 abilities, 2 tier 2 and 1 tier 3 (3/2/1). Why not add one extra faction-themed ability on tier 2 and tier 3, making that 3 tier 1, 3 tier 2 and 2 tier 3? And if that is too much, maybe save the extra faction abilities for the major skills of the faction? That would allow greater hero build variety without changing the current skill system. The only downside would be a little more randomness if you are not playing with manual system. But I feel that it would help a lot in fleshing out the factions and add replayability to the system.
There are some nice skills that could be added..
   
   
   
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 03, 2015 01:29 PM |
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Pretty much disagree here. I personally have no problem with 7 magic schools. It is enough to ensure a good amount of magic builds and therefore replayability. The biggest problem I see is that there is the risk of your magic being decided by the spell drop in your guild. But the easy fix to that is to increase the availability of spells. Spell Market inside the Mage Guild (allowing spell trade for resources with the AI and other players), erected Academies as part of your town's special buildings (where you could research spells) and abilities inside your Hero's skill system would be excellent - and innovative, since there're so many complaints about a lack of innovative mechanics - tools to help with that.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 03, 2015 01:42 PM |
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I like what you proposed here, Elvin. However, I would change a few tiny aspects. Firstly, I would change the name of Magic of Darkness and Light into Magic of Curses and Blessings respectively, so that it won't mislead people - in your system Light and Darkness spells are in all your hypothetical schools of magic. Moreover, I think you didn't mention Adventure Map Spells. What is your idea on that matter? Should they be spread across various magic schools or should they be placed in one independent school, like in Heroes V, in which spells are learnt basing upon the Hero's level?
Besides that, I hope such change will be implemented. It would be such a great thing to see that number of Magic Schools and hence, spells' diversity per hero would increase. I have even made a sensible lore explaination for such a change! 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 03, 2015 01:45 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 13:49, 03 May 2015.
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@Stevie
Replayability? Only if you are into playing different classes just to get the magic of your preference. Magic that has been arbitrarily placed on them so as to divine the pie, something that should not have been necessary in the first place. The whole point of the magic lore was to allow a hero to have almost no restrictions but in this case it is the gameplay that restricts lore. Because it hasn't found a system that makes it work. If there is one thing I agree with Erwan is that there should be as few restrictions on the magic schools as possible. H5 did not and it was richer for it. Remember sylvan? It was possible to go light, dark, destructive or summoning and that was awesome. Should I have to pick a different magic class(druid A, druid B or druid C) to get access to more magic elements? A class that might not even agree with my gameplay mentality? Sounds like giving me a dilemma I never asked for. I'd rather pick my own magic thank you very much.
@Pawek_13
Indeed but you get the basic idea, curses and buffs. I rather like adventure spells as they are, distributed amongst the schools.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 03, 2015 02:06 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:07, 03 May 2015.
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As I see it, you're bringing up the problems of the class system to disagree with the magic system. While they do meet each other as far as magic skills goes, they are NOT the same. I myself think that the way they implemented classes in Heroes 7, with, restricting Heroes from having access to a majority of skills, is complete and utter bullsnow. If it weren't like that, and heroes had access to all magic skills (or a vast majority, if rules like no Dark for Haven are really that important - although I think they're absolutely not, and would rather prefer Haven towns not TEACH Dark magic and Haven heroes's change to get the Dark skill be 0, but STILL being able to get the skill and spells by other means), then you WOULD have replayability, and it would NOT matter if there were 4 or 7 total magic skills in existence.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 03, 2015 02:28 PM |
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Then you're seeing it wrong because I do not complain about the number of magic elements but how they can be intergrated into the skill system as flawlessly as possible.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 03, 2015 02:51 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:57, 03 May 2015.
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You're doing both. You claim 7 magic skills is "too many", and try to fit the 7 elements into less skills. Something like the system of Heroes 5 where the elemental spells were grouped into schools according to their function. Which is something I disagree with btw, magic schools couldn't get more linear than that.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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