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| Thread: Skill System Redesign |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV |
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 03, 2015 07:52 PM |
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I also advocate for a reduced amount of Magic Schools, you're just spreading yourself too thin - and the skills as a whole too, there's no need for 30 skills, racials + 12-16 skills, with diverse perk 'trees' would work fabulously.
I'm curious. In your example Nagas have banned Fire and Dark elements. Would you apply that ban only to Sanctuary Magic Guild, or to the heroes too? (So no Naga hero would ever be able to learn Armageddon, for example).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 03, 2015 08:01 PM |
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That's how it was in H6 but it kinda makes sense. Dark not necessarily but fire would seem too opposed to their philosophy. Impatient, passionate and aggressive.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 05, 2015 04:08 PM |
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Limbic-Jaelle said:
Hey fellas,
We are currently preparing a statement regarding the skillwheel mechanism. Could you please share with us your main concerns and questions (in bullet points) regarding this Topics, so we can integrate them in the feedback of our gamedesigners?
Important information: In this state of the game, there will be no changes in the system and the mechanics. We would like to answer your question and concerns regarding this topic.
Thanks for your help and passion!
Cheers, Limbic-Jaelle
Short addition: This request is, to make things more clear, where it's needed. That's why we asked precisely for the open questions here.
Here,s the main concern of mine: Simplicity. Simplicity is what kills HoMM. You could clearly see in HoMM6 that simplicity doesn't work. Give the players a simple matrix of skills, and they will within a month make 1-2 strategies that work, and everything else will be a pointless filler, effectively reducing the game into who-gets-better-creeps-on-the-map, because the strategy part is limited to laughable amounts.
What HoMM needs is a MASSIVE amount of spells, units, artifacts, and potential strategies, that's what keeps those kinds of games alive: every game is potentially different. Even if at start the balance is lacking and some strats are dominant - that's okay. It's way easier to listen to a free feedback from us and release a regular patch to an already rich and interesting game, than to drastically push in content that's sorely lacking from day one. At least that's how I see it.
So - don't be afraid to make it big, and complicated. Even casuals will appreciate that because they've been given nothing but braindead games for at least a couple years. Look how well they responded to path of exile, which wasn't the best game to begin with - but it gave so many opportunities to create builds, tactics, experiment with ideas. People like that. It keeps games alive.
Don't screw this one up. HoMM3 was partially a success because it came with a massive amount of lucre that kept people interested for months. It literally seems that the more complicated a HoMM game is, the more of a success it is. While HoMM5 was simplifed due to amount of spells, the skill system kept people busy for months. HoMm6 was simply too bland.
Since the game is already decided and the core won't change, you can still fix up the skill system by simply adding artifacts that will fix what is inherently flawed by design. From there you might recover by re-developing skills in exansion packs. I'm sorry for brutal honesty here guys, but simplicity won't work, you'll just get HoMM6 bis, and you can expect a lot of unhappy customers and enraged die-hard HoMM fans.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 06, 2015 11:58 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
I also advocate for a reduced amount of Magic Schools, you're just spreading yourself too thin - and the skills as a whole too, there's no need for 30 skills, racials + 12-16 skills, with diverse perk 'trees' would work fabulously.
I get 17:
* Offence
* Armourer
* Archery
* War Machines
* Leadership
* Luck
* Diplomacy
* Estates
* Scouting
* Pathfinding
* Scholar
* Sorcery
* Magic School (x4)
* Warding
Actually, in my own proposal its up to 19, adding in Arcane Magic (containing game-breakers like Armageddon, Resurrection and Puppet Master) and Adventure Magic.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 06, 2015 11:59 PM |
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Of those, archery could be part of offense and scouting a part of pathfinding. The latter was never an important enough skill but one could afford a standalone scouting ability, provided it was tempting enough. I think H5 nailed it when it placed pathfinding, navigation and scounting under logistics.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 07, 2015 12:40 AM |
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Indeed. The same could be said about Scholar being as a perk of Illustration.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 07, 2015 03:13 AM |
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Elvin said:
Of those, archery could be part of offense...
I've come up with at least 4 perks for archery, so I'm not really happy about dropping that skill.
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...and scouting a part of pathfinding.
Got 4 perks there as well, And to my mind folding it in with movement skills makes about as much sense as folding Armourer into Offense.
In fact to be quite honest I'd rather drop Luck, fold War Machines into Archery (call it Ballistics), fold Warding into Armourer, and fold Scholar into Sourcery.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 07, 2015 02:37 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 14:38, 07 May 2015.
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You can come up with plenty of perks, the question is whether they serve a big enough purpose to justify their existence. Off the top of my head you can play around with the concepts of point blank shot, increased range, reduced ranged penalty, armour reduction, area of effect scattershot, dodge/move & shoot, pre-emptive shot, vigilance, marksmanship, rapid shot, wounding shot etc etc. But how many of those would be worth having as universal abilities without watering down individual unit or faction flavour? I'd be happier with 3 universal abilities and the rest being faction abilities or unique creature abilities.
But while all the above would be very useful, there is only so much usefulness you can get from scouting. It would have to be ridiculously good to justify spending more than 1 ability point in it and even then it would likely be reserved for secondary heroes.
I have considered magic protection being a part of defense but it's kind of.. too specialized. And then what, should offense also boost offensive magic? Do we need sorcery then? Sounds a rather streamlined approach. I like the idea of skill opposites that counter each other. Makes it harder to have a winning skill combination in the system.
Scholar and sorcery could easily be combined but I kind of like the experience and mentoring aspect of scholar/enlightenment being separate from magical studies. Either way I don't feel too strongly about it.
And dropping luck is plain heresy  Can't ditch the most fun of the skills.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 07, 2015 03:57 PM |
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Elvin said:
And dropping luck is plain heresy Can't ditch the most fun of the skills.
Of course you would say that, heh!
Elvin said:
 
Elvin - Elvin Luck
Surpasses even Sq79 levels 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 07, 2015 05:54 PM |
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What I have in mind with skill counters.
Attack boosts might potency but not magic.
Defense boosts might protection but not magic.
Sorcery boosts magic potency but not might.
Resistance/warding boosts magic protection but not might.
That much should be obvious but the point is that specializing in one thing should leave you open in another. If defense had both might and magic protection it would be too versatile. It would counter two skills at the same time.
This cannot work for all skills of course. There is no direct skill counter to leadership unless its reverse was implemented in let's say necropolis as a special case. Same is true for luck. Those only have a counter in enemy artifacts but I see them as more of a less reliable fighting alternative. Luck and morale have their place in combat as much as skill, strategy and equipment.
Tactics on the other hand count as a calculating and reliable fighting alternative that revolves around positioning and maneuvers. A skill about formations, flanking, mobility or taking advantage of the battlefield would have been grand, giving you an edge in combat without directly boosting your units like attack or defense.
In a way you could consider warmachines and warcries the might alternative to destructive and buffing spells. Not strictly necessary but having gameplay alternatives is a good thing. H6 eliminated warmachines with the reasoning that damage and healing were a hero's domain but that only made game's duller, with fewer options. Technically and thematically speaking, warcries could have easily been part of leadership. During H6 they were considered less shouting and more the feats of an inspiring leader. Don't care much either way, I'm fine with might heroes casting spells. I prefer it really.
Logistics is the ultimate example of how an adventure map skill can match a combat skill. Terrain navigation can REALLY pay off by the time you do battle. But scouting as an independent skill, just how much could that help you on a main hero? Maybe if it also involved knowing enemy skill/spells, infiltration and sabotage.. Increased view radius is not as huge an advantage as the other skills.
Estates/nobility would be another adventure skill alternative, allowing you to gain more gold/resources, construct buildings easier, better manage your kingdom which in turn translates into more troops and upgrades.
(Incidentally this reminds me of the H3 AI behaviours, warrior, builder and explorer  )
And of course diplomacy that gives direct access to other troops - Numbers as opposed to skill. Also more diverse unit combinations and working together. Makes sense under leadership but the latter has traditionally been a might skill while diplomacy is not necessarily so.
Magic counters are self-explanatory with summoning vs destruction and curses vs blessings. Two potential bad matches depending on the implementation being curses vs destructive (curse all you like, your time is running out) and curses vs summoning (sucks when your summons are incapacitated or taken from you).
Overall I like this general structure of skills. Add some specialized perks and counters (as opposed to universal) and the game can gain a lot of depth and multiple levels of subtlety.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 07, 2015 11:00 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 23:05, 07 May 2015.
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Elvin said:
You can come up with plenty of perks, the question is whether they serve a big enough purpose to justify their existence. Off the top of my head you can play around with the concepts of point blank shot, increased range, reduced ranged penalty, armour reduction, area of effect scattershot, dodge/move & shoot, pre-emptive shot, vigilance, marksmanship, rapid shot, wounding shot etc etc. But how many of those would be worth having as universal abilities without watering down individual unit or faction flavour?
I got reduced melee penalty, reduced range penalty, longer range, and armour reduction.
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But while all the above would be very useful, there is only so much usefulness you can get from scouting. It would have to be ridiculously good to justify spending more than 1 ability point in it and even then it would likely be reserved for secondary heroes.
I got grab resources, get info about enemies, stop the enemy getting info about you and spotting events. You could also extend the 'get information' thing out further, find out what spells are offered by shrines, and skills by witch-huts, finding out whether one-time locations like wagons or tombs or even battle-sites have been taken etc.
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I have considered magic protection being a part of defense but it's kind of.. too specialized. And then what, should offense also boost offensive magic? Do we need sorcery then?
Maybe you've forgotten that that's how it was in H5?
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And dropping luck is plain heresy Can't ditch the most fun of the skills.
Luck is a part of the game, yes, but luck as a separate skill isn't necessary IMO.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted May 14, 2015 02:22 PM |
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I have uploaded the new design for the upcoming MMH5.5 project, I have within the limits of the game tried to improve the system with regards to the sentiments put forward in this thread as well as the criticism on MMH7. Feel free to weigh in...
MMH5.5 Skill System Design
Key features:
-3 classes per faction might/magic & balanced
-Randomized, but with high enough probabilities to get the desired skills.
-Thematic branching, ‘it makes sense’
-26 secondary skills and 174 perks for maximum variation and flexibility
-No useless perks, no ‘must have’ perks.
-relatively weaker perks are prerequisites to relatively stronger perks.
-Some black sheep in paths to ultimates to prevent forcing player in ultimate build.
-Symmetric organization for easier memorization
-6 or 8 skillslot option to swap between S and XL map gameplay.
-Smart witch huts ask questions and sometimes offer a second chance for a desired skill.
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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