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| Thread: Should the EU be dissolved? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT» |
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted June 26, 2013 04:45 PM |
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Poll Question:
Should the EU be dissolved?
The EU has been an economic disaster for countries that cannot compete with their superior northern opponents like Greece, Spain, Italy, Slovenia and so on.
The reason for it is that of the monetary union. However, there are other problems aswell in the EU. Many states have sometimes reissued borders because of immigration, which undermines the Schengen Treaty.
Watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4paierbObLE
What do you think, should Europe return to pre-EU times? No more Schengen,EU, Euro?
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted June 26, 2013 10:06 PM |
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Well Europe faces future irrelevance without it so um...
yeah...
feel like disbanding it and going to beg become vassals of China or India already?
Actually it probably faces future irrelevance regardless so i guess it doesn't matter
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 26, 2013 10:19 PM |
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Yeah, right, as if POLITICAL entities had a meaning nowadays.
What is supposed to be gained for a member of the EU when the EU is dissolved? You think, Italy had a less corrupt government (and I assume a certain level of corruption as 0-horizon already)? Or Greece would have a tight reign on their budget?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 26, 2013 10:27 PM |
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Well, isn't it the other way around. It's not countries like Greece or Italy that wants it to dissolve but political opposition in locomotive countries like France and Germany since they say the weaker economies of the others slows them down and messes up their budget. Of course there are also people who think of EU as the 4th Reich (I guess, an element of exaggeration is intentional on that one). What do you think of that as a German?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 26, 2013 10:29 PM |
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You have an idea of what Germany is PAYING into the EU coffers and for how much of the reserves we stand?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 26, 2013 10:34 PM |
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Not really, the 4th Reich thing is just something I heard over and I am curious of the idea behind it.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted June 26, 2013 10:50 PM |
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Germany's probably the only reason why the EU isn't in shambles right now. They are easily the strongest economy of the EU, and if i'm correct they're also the ONLY economy to grow AND not have any problems with youth unemployment.
Because of this, Germany is also the biggest financial contributor towards the EU, and therefore all the bad economies. This is also why Germany's always the most vocal about sanitizing bad economies and in favour of reprecussions towards those that don't.
I'm personally always annoyed that people are blaming the Germans for sabotaging the economic redevelopment of Greece and Cyprus whereas without them, their economies would have bankrupted a LONG time ago.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 26, 2013 10:55 PM |
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Well, the sanitizing part may also be interpreted as taking over, since it's the strongest economy among them. From what I've read, the complaints from the little countries are usually based on German firms taking over local business and so on.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 26, 2013 11:01 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 23:03, 26 Jun 2013.
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It's not that simple Lexxan. I am glad they have interfered because we'd never have done something on our own but make no mistake, they are not saints either. And they have done some pretty questionable things. If not outright brutal.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted June 27, 2013 01:09 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 01:27, 27 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
Well Europe faces future irrelevance without it so um...
yeah...
feel like disbanding it and going to beg become vassals of China or India already?
Actually it probably faces future irrelevance regardless so i guess it doesn't matter
Pretty much have to agree. Whether it dissloves or not does not really matter because its economic weight and influence of the most powerful countries in europe is falling anyway.
Europeans seem to be indifferent to the EU per se. Nobody seems to care anyway. No sign or debate amongst people who are in the EU.
Funny phenomenon actually. Here in HC, if somebody started a US based thread about something the GOP or Obama announced, lots of debate would occur. Talking about the EU seems like talking about dying livestock.
If the people dont care, why do politicians care?
http://www.debatingeurope.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/TH_1_logo.png
and this:
http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-database/economic-data/11855-total-debt-to-gdp.html#axzz2R4rA5r6i
Look at the debt compared to the GDP of these countries.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 27, 2013 04:00 AM |
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Not being European it's hard for me to have an informed opinion, but I know if I was German, I'd be pissed that I was basically subsidizing pretty much all of southern Europe.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 27, 2013 07:07 AM |
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Errr...you are subsidizing almost all Africa, Israel and several arab countries, compared to us you are broken. 
US total economic assistance for 2011 (not including military): $31.7 billions.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 27, 2013 07:15 AM |
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Quote:
Errr...you are subsidizing almost all Africa, Israel and several arab countries, compared to us you are broken.
And I'm pretty bloody pissed about it. 
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted June 27, 2013 09:45 AM |
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&Lexxan
Quote:
their economies would have bankrupted a LONG time ago.
No, with "independence" they could engage in cheating with inflation, just to avoid the same issue. Providing the debt was set in the countries internal currency. Even if it where not, you could still engage in inflating the currency less than what was printed, for "profit".
&Seraphim
Quote:
If the people dont care, why do politicians care?
If you setup a external political group, you also have a external political group for getting "retirement" jobs after your days of sitting in the parlament/government/interest lobbies/etc is over or during cooldown periods.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 27, 2013 02:55 PM |
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Northern economies don't want out because EU ties into S & E Europe were an export boon throughout the 90s and 00s. Even if they're doing unpopular subsidizing right now, they're hoping to eventually get back to business as usual.
Part of the reason southern economies are blaming Germany is because, in theory, if those economies weren't wrapped up into the EU they would have likely been forced to address their budgets earlier rather than later. Really, everybody is responsible because the EU grew irresponsibly rapidly and ignored all of the things economists and some politicians were complaining about as early as the 80s and 90s. Now you've got a single currency being used by several entities that all have the sovereign ability to operate their own budget, which is absurdly dumb. You're either going to have to trade off sovereignty (as has been done somewhat already) or ditch the EU.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 27, 2013 03:42 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 15:43, 27 Jun 2013.
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The monetary union is - by far - not the only component of the EU and even if the Union is ultimately forced to drop the euro, there are other things which nobody will benefit from losing, especially the rich countries. One of the strategic aims of the EU is a fiscal union which will resolve many of the autonomous government issues but is unlikely to see light in the near future (or maybe at all - it might too much to swallow even for the moderate proponents of united Europe). In any case, it's pretty clear that if the member states spend "common" funds irresponsibly - like Greece did for nearly three decades - the economic and monetary union won't last long in its current form.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2013 03:54 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 16:00, 27 Jun 2013.
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the EU is not just a disaster, it's a trap for its citizens. the politicians consciensciouly take all the most harmful décisions for the citizens (and most profitable for them and the private banks for which they work)
Quote:
What is supposed to be gained for a member of the EU when the EU is dissolved? You think, Italy had a less corrupt government (and I assume a certain level of corruption as 0-horizon already)? Or Greece would have a tight reign on their budget?
the EU is destroying the sovereignty of countries. the decisions are taken by the european commission. the people you elect have less and less power, because those are transfered to the european commission, and that gets written in constitutions (like the TSCG). and the 6 packs is going to rob the countries even more of their power of deciding of their budget.
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Fauch
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2013 04:05 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 16:12, 27 Jun 2013.
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btw, greece didn't match the requirements to enter the EU. they had to pay Goldman Sachs, that helped them hide the true amount of their debt.
Quote:
Europeans seem to be indifferent to the EU per se. Nobody seems to care anyway. No sign or debate amongst people who are in the EU.
some politician in the UK (don't remember who) wants a referendum about exiting the EU. polls seem to show that a majority of the population wants to get out of the EU. apparently they received orders straight from Washington (!) so that referendum never takes place.
that's quite similar to what happened in Greece, when Papandreou wanted to start a referendum about the austerity measure and got immediately fired and replaced by Papadeimos who is suspected to have participated in faking the accounts of the Greece with the help of Goldman Sachs.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2013 04:11 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 16:20, 27 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
the EU is not just a disaster, it's a trap for its citizens. the politicians consciensciouly take all the most harmful décisions for the citizens (and most profitable for them and the private banks for which they work)
careful... people on here will start thinking you're a tin-foil hat type, like they do me...
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oh yeah, should eu be broken apart... of course it should. unified governments are never a good thing. think of it like this: if germany had had more people on it's side(formed up like voltron) during world war 1 and 2... well, you can imagine a somewhat different outcome.
(yes, i'm comparing governments with nazis. at this point, i shouldn't have to explain WHY. it should be obvious to everyone as to "why". might as well have the mob running countries. but in the case of governments, banks, and corporations, the mobs're just small fry. now, if they were all UNITED, it would be a different matter. just think... if all the gangs of the u.s. united... can you say, "warriorsssss.... come out to plaayyyyayyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!"  )
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 27, 2013 04:15 PM |
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Erm... that analogy is totally inadequate.
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