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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 04, 2014 08:51 AM |
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That's because the music isn't fitting a darker meaning in Sting's Every Breath You Take, so it's his own fault. 
Which brings us back to my initial post: how in hell could critics NOT see that a band - with their very first song - had just written and played the musical equivalent of a horror movie/story? And in a quite original and stunning way, considering the song had been released very early in 1970?
I mean, you wouldn't expect them to hail this as the beginning of a new era or something, but you would have expected them to say something along the lines of "interesting moments with slowed down music (Vanilla Fudge) and tuned down instruments to create a "doomy" sound that's rather unique for interesting effect, but we'll have to wait and see whether this is just a one-time forage into what might be called "doom rock" or whether they will explore it further with their next album and whether this has the substance to last".
Not that difficult, actually - and if that was the launch, then their next album of the same year should have done the trick, coming among others with the song hailed as best Heavy Metal Song of all Times (Iron Man).
Nothing, though.
That's because reviewers cannot just relate the facts, they also rate, and their rating is based on their interpretation of things.
Try it the other way round:
Joy Division - Love will tear us apart has been listed by the NME in 2002 as best single of all time. Rolling Stone magazine puts it on #179 in their list of the 500 best songs of all time. 2007 NME played it #19 in their Top 50 Indie Anthems of all time. Lastly, in 2012 it topped the list of the Top 100 songs in the 60 years of the NME's lifetime.
I mean, SERIOUSLY?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 04, 2014 02:29 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:38, 04 Dec 2014.
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Well, it's true the Sting song isnt significantly dark but when you listen to it with the new information you can easily hear it's not exactly a warm, joyful love song either. It can be interpreted as having a cold, distant feeling and that's how a neurosis can manifest itself sometimes, with its own alienation.
The Joy Division song is the typical example of the way I hate synthesisers are used through the eighties, certainly not my cup of tea. But even when I put my taste beside and try to understand what's the fuss with a more objective, "historian" manner, I see nothing special, so we're on the same page there.
I explained how I benefited from reviews. It's all internet these days, with designed sites and enormous databanks recommending you this or that, taking your profile as a listener etc but back in my days of exploration, you had to dig everything deeper yourself, you had to research, take risks and spend money on new artists, import CDs from abroad on special occasions and they helped discovering things a lot. And come to think of it, we may not be handing out grades but dont we ALL rate things? I mean, didn't you just rate the Joy Division song as overrated? 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 04, 2014 02:40 PM |
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It's true I rated it as overrated, but more as the byproduct of critisizing these polls and hunt for the best song, best this, best that - I mean, how is #59 different from #67?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 04, 2014 02:54 PM |
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I guess, with lists that try to put things in scale for long periods of time, such as best conceptual albums of the last 50 years, they try to estimate the level of impact and influence. I'm also quite skeptical that personal relationships (watch Almost Famous if you haven't already, lovely film about the subject) or monetary affairs play some part. It's certainly trying to quantify something not quantifiable but it's not absolutely impossible, you can have lists that make sense to a degree, you just can't have lists everybody completely agrees on.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 04, 2014 03:07 PM |
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Actually, it's a question of scope more than anything else.
This list makes a lot of sense, due to the relatively small scope and universe to rate in, even though it's - as always - debatable, but as a list it makes sense indeed.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 04, 2014 07:08 PM |
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artu said:
Btw, Markkur, what the listener presumes the meaning of a song is and the intended meaning of the song may very often be completely different things, even when it seems very unlikely. I remember Sting talking about how he wrote the song Every breath you take about obssession and a dark fixation that does not leave him alone, you know, "everywhere you go I'll be watching you!" But now, he says, they all think it's a love song and people pick it as their wedding song. Or what does Mr. Tambourine Man exactly talk about, what does it mean? How about instrumentals? But I guess in the end, when it comes to meaning, what counts most is, what it subjectively means to the listener himself.
Absolutely so. Your last sentence is in my mind what makes Art...Art. I wrote poems and songs and often the reader or listener would "get" something totally different that what I was thinking when I made whatever. But as you know, there's also lots that leave no guesswork.
I think what I enjoy nowadays about instrumentals, is there is no message, just feelings or unspoken images. In a 24/7/365 world that's full of propaganda for all sorts of purposes...ambiance music is pretty sweet and silence is golden. 
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"Do your own research"
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted December 10, 2014 01:54 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 10, 2014 10:31 PM |
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 10, 2014 11:00 PM |
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Not likely to become rich. Ambiance music, the harmonic development and tonalities are same for a while, but I think plagiarism is applied only if melodies are very close, of Interstellar has no melody in that example, just simple chords moving forth and back. I dunno...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 10, 2014 11:15 PM |
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The funny thing is, I remember watching V for Vendetta, thinking "music must be by Hans Zimmer" and then, I got the soundtrack and saw it was Dario Marianelli. So, it's like Hans Zimmer is imitating a Hans Zimmerish influence.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 10, 2014 11:49 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 00:19, 11 Dec 2014.
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artu said:
Okay, listen to the music, isn't this obvious plagiarism?
Hans Zimmer - Interstellar
Dario Marianelli - V for Vendetta
Sal?
FTFY
Otherwise, I'm no expert but I think Salamandre is right, they are not that much cadenzas, thus plagiarism would be unlikely to be applied for that only, melody is the factor I think. Anyway, I agree the similarity is messed up man
When I think the guy used to work with Lisa Gerrard...
BloodSucker said:
Is the first time I liked rap songs (cause this are entertaining) so I decided to post a link here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kRAKXFrYQ4
Hah epic rap battles^^ To me best still is this one Linux FTW !!!
(Maybe the VW music thread would have fit better idk)
Ps. Salamandre : be sure to let know if you perform at Paris someday !
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 10, 2014 11:58 PM |
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Galaad said:
FTFY
What exactly did you fix? My post is exactly the same.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 11, 2014 12:02 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 00:02, 11 Dec 2014.
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artu said:
What exactly did you fix? My post is exactly the same.
Are you sure, did you clic the link ?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 11, 2014 12:10 AM |
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Oh, so you made the same trailer link start from the relevant minute, nice.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 05:05 PM |
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Galaad said:
(Maybe the VW music thread would have fit better idk)
Yes, probably and in fact your link is better.
The things is, I only tought of link it cause of what Sal said about Michael Jackson. I don't like the music, I like the idea.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 23, 2015 04:17 AM |
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Here's a quite interesting and at times funny discussion I came upon about Gould and his interpretation of Beethoven, who are the best sonata players, how different the expectations of the listener can be when it comes to the relationship between the composer and the performer and many other things. In the second page, there's even a link to a machine playing the Moonlight Sonata (it's not completely horrible, at least not as one would expect.)
Pianostreet.com
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 23, 2015 01:05 PM |
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Thanks Artu, quite references here, I was only a bit surprised Aldo Cicollini wasn't mentioned.
I myself never was too fond of Wilhelm Kempff, what do you like about him, I mean, compared to Barenboim for instance ?
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 23, 2015 01:05 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 13:09, 23 Jan 2015.
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I read a little of that and quit when I read this; "Self-absorbed." <lol>
Wouldn't that be applicable to any artist or any person trying to create anything? <L> It's always fun to read...Experts.
If beauty "is in the eyes of the beholder" than it also must abide in "the ears of the listener" and to me, these days, that makes any debate about Quality in instrumental-Music rather groundless. When people sound like authoritarians explaining to the perceived ignorant, my attention quickly exists stage right.  <imo> Even adding a message, although it gives something that can "possibly" be objected or accepted, only makes a so-so argument when the artist has confirmed their intent. Without the meaning, the presented message is still Projected; just like my poems when folks came up with their own highly detailed feelings that had nothing to do with my silent intent.
Very much like was lately revealed in the polarity of opinions that surrounded the release of TBotFA. I hate the whole thrill-o-gee but there are those that think it's the greatest thing since whatever. It seems Seeing is both believing and not-believing. Hearing sound only doesn't really hold up to any debate....does it? Except, technical aspects. Clearly, Tuning has some cement under foot.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 23, 2015 01:19 PM |
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@Galaad
The way Kempff stresses things sounds more passionate and more suiting to me. Barenboim it seems has a deeper understanding of the structure as a whole but he plays hushed and serene at places where Kempff gives you a sense of emotional struggle, which is what I particularly like in Beethoven's sonatas.
@Markkur
You left reading where it gets truly interesting. Of course, there is a subjectivity to these things but it's not absolute. (That's why JJ is able to say it's Sting's fault when people get Every Breath You Take wrong.) The one who criticizes Gould's interpretation makes a good argument about that with the beach ball metaphor. I dont think he's a hundred percent correct, btw. I just think he has a very valid point.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 23, 2015 01:28 PM |
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I read the beach ball thing too. That's probably where I did halt.
I suppose we can differ even on how we differ, but I'm sure you see that differ-ently. <averywideslydogkindofgrin>
Cheers friend
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"Do your own research"
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This thread is pages long: 
