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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 12, 2014 05:37 PM |
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You are just a noob in erm, so you think I write complex scripts. I have zero talent for programming, I hate that area, and I am very mediocre scripter, but very hard worker. I may impress damsels like you, but true scripters are not fooled by my bluffs.
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Era II mods and utilities
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 12, 2014 06:03 PM |
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artu said:
I think it's a combination of intelligence, imagination, sensitivity, depth and dedication.
Not all these qualities are distributed equally in an artist
Four Inspirational words for a sweaty one. 
But I agree with you on this. What I don't agree so much with is Sal's idea of a generation not to say century of lazyness.
In sports records are still constantly beaten and that is (no doubt) a sweaty area...
About arts in general I not an expert but the XX century had his share of talented poets and writers from his starts (Kafka, Pessoa...) to his ends (Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Mishima, Garcia Marques and many more).
Salamandre I already new this peace but I must admit I had never notice the girls presence. I can't imagine how distractfull that must have been.
P.S.
Salamandre said:
I may impress damsels like you
You don't. That's why I gave you as an example of transpiration. Not inspiration but a f...g hard-work giving notable results.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 12, 2014 06:12 PM |
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Very good discussion
Quote:
Salamandre; “ Youtube is in general a fast-food platform…”
AND
Artu’ “I guess that is a very valid factor, comfort and the many distractions of modern technology indeed turn us soft and less productive to a degree.”
That's true about all things I think....in the West anyway. It's also an old sentiment now, since a WW1 poet said the English had been made half-men by luxury. I'm sure you'd both agree; having everything at our fingertips is not a natural training ground for patience. So, we are what we eat...so to speak.<L>
What troubles me most today is that it seems Imagination is largely dying. I can only guess that it's because of the demise of reading and the supremacy of visual story-telling. Probably one of the most obvious ways a mind can be made lazy; better to watch a Mozart-story than make your own.
@BloodSucker
Quote:
...do you think someone trying to compose will wait years if not decades to share his progresses in YouTube?... it is a maxim of mediocrity that "genius is 10% inspiration and 90% transpiration"...then the result of hard work and dedication.
I'd rather believe genius is 50% inspiration and 50% perspiration. A wonderful "glimpse" into creating anything exceptional is not worth much when it's flashes within a art-form where mastery of the basics requires dedication, discipline and effort, but the beholder is only taking one stroll through a neighborhood grassy-Commons, rather than learning everything past and present about building a metropolitan-park.
Late in my life, I've become a little boy in a sense. I'm grateful to discover some things that escaped me as a child and adult. One of the most powerful "awes" of my life atm, is the incredible art of an orchestra. I played my music and most every other art...solo. Now, seeing groups of people work together is just amazing. And this opened the door to my realizing, even more than before, how fantastic those composers of old truly were; to see an ensemble of different players assembled and playing their small part, to blend with all the other players seated, to create one very large panorama of blended uniquely-flavored notes; all intricately woven to make one single audio-tapestry, that basically represents of series of sewn-moods.
To highlight what I just said; for a long time I've wondered about a "piece" that I've heard in a few fantasy movies, i.e. Excalibur. Because of recently thinking about “music for gaming” and what would make good ambiance for different game situations. (btw, it's very hard to match H2&H3) I kept thinking "there's some segment of classical that has been used for wizard-like "moody darkness" or "evil-rising" that I knew had been used more than once. What was it? I was distracted and forgot about it for a time.
Later, my adoration of the 1924 silent-movies, Die Nibelungen: Siegfried and Die Nibelungen: Kriemhild's Revenge. by Fritz Lang re-awoke the question; "What is that piece I've heard used in movies?" In watching those old flicks again I heard that old “brooding-mood” again. I searched this time determined to find the dang thing. It was and is;
Götterdämmerung by Wagner {Siegfried's funeral march}
Wagner
Keep in mind; my family background is closer to the Scottish highlands than a cultured Europe.  Today many of you might know this stuff without looking. But I had to work for it. <L>
Cheers to imagination, inspiration and most of all...perspiration.
____________
"Do your own research"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 12, 2014 06:36 PM |
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 12, 2014 06:51 PM |
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markkur said:
and most of all...perspiration.
Yeah! In the end (for each one of us) is all that matters. Your talent can make your work worthy of aplause but the dignity of knowning "I did my best" is only a matter of how commited you were with your own way. (I'm philosophycal today! )
And here, Sal you are a great inspiration. I always think: if he could do it I can do it too, if I try hard enouch...
And that brings me to another matter that has been in my mind for long: why don't you use some inspritation too? I mean, you are putting all this effort to a task you say doesn't give some much pleasure, while you complain there are not enouch talented modders creating maps our days. Yet, it has been a long time since you present us with a work of your vivid imagination and talent, a map.
ArtuThat's unfair, me here saying there's a future in art's (something you said you believe too) and you coming up with a Golden Years Jazz peace. No, they don't do that anymore but there is still space for complex, meaningfull innovation.
Here is one point I desagree with Sal's pov. Of course I subscribe the idea that Voyager's music would have beem complete with the works of Bach and nothing else, no one has ever distinguished so much in his field has he did in music but nowadays classical composers aren't better then rock "composers", they only use different systems. I believe Zappa will still be heard 200 years from now and that's more then I can say from any "classical" composer since Orff. Talent is not a matter of notification.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 12, 2014 06:59 PM |
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But instead of map I built at least 15 new mods for enhancing game play, and this is also useful, for me and others. Laziness is not in my vocabulary.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 12, 2014 07:05 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:47, 12 Nov 2014.
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I imagine, if I could play the piano good enough to be a proffesional, I wouldnt spend much time in H3 modding and instead I'd play all the time, even play at night clubs for fun (and a little money on the side) would be more fulfilling for me than to do something else. But I guess that's not the way it goes when it's real.
Well, lucky for us you're not like that, so we have the mods 
bloodsucker said:
ArtuThat's unfair, me here saying there's a future in art's (something you said you believe too) and you coming up with a Golden Years Jazz peace. No, they don't do that anymore but there is still space for complex, meaningfull innovation.
Here is one point I desagree with Sal's pov. Of course I subscribe the idea that Voyager's music would have beem complete with the works of Bach and nothing else, no one has ever distinguished so much in his field has he did in music but nowadays classical composers aren't better then rock "composers", they only use different systems. I believe Zappa will still be heard 200 years from now and that's more then I can say from any "classical" composer since Orff. Talent is not a matter of notification.
Relax dude, I just shared a song with a "they dont make them like they used to" sentiment. And dont overestimate Zappa. If we put aside jazz which is not exactly popular music, from 20th century, blues as a genre, the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Frank Sinatra, James Brown will definetely be remembered for a long time, Hendrix has a chance but not all his stuff is very revisitable for everyone. U2 may make it, Sting is a good composer, Elton John has many songs melodically very catchy that can be covered in the future. Radiohead and Nirvana has a chance from a later period. Zappa has sense of humor but he's not exceptional beyond centuries in terms of a songwriter or performer. Dont forget that genres and their styles, their sound grow old quite fast these days and once the genre is out, new generations can't comprehend the sensuality of the songs. Most people I know cant even tell the difference between a trompet and a saxophone these days when they hear it. To someone who's not significantly into 70's rock, there is nothing astonishing about Zappa and in 2050, not many people will be into that, just like you are not into Foxtrot.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 12, 2014 08:09 PM |
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I think, I disagree with a lot of what has been written today, but I've better things to do right now than engage in a useless discussion. 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 12, 2014 08:21 PM |
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You seem to have enough time for pompous remarks, though.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 12, 2014 10:13 PM |
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I seem to agree with you in that regard.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 13, 2014 06:13 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 15:34, 13 Nov 2014.
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@artu
"Don't YOU eat that yellow snow, out there where the huskies go."
How that could ever be forgotten.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 13, 2014 08:06 AM |
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"Don't you EAT that yellow snow...", Markkur.
But anyway, Zappa's one thing I've been disagreeing with.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 13, 2014 12:20 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:20, 13 Nov 2014.
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Well, the taste of the future is always a speculative thing but trying to be as impartial as I can, I think in cases of popular music, simple but melodic songs (poetic lyrics like Dylan's help) have a better chance, they can be the Silent Night's (Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht for you JJ ) of future centuries. But let's face it, stuff like symphonic rock wont be the major focus of people who are into virtuosity or compositional sophistication. They'll already have their century's music for that, which will probably trump ours and also regular jazz or classical performers can take out the best rock performers any time of the day when it comes to virtuosity and mastery of your instrument. It's debatable for sure, it's the frigging future, we don't know what norms it will hold, but when I try to use past centuries as an instrument of measurement, popular/folk music usually leaves behind its simple but capturing works. I love Pink Floyd myself but I don't think if someone from 2120 wants to listen to something long and compositional, he'll go for the sound of the 1970's or their acid trip.
When it comes to Zappa... Notice how all the names I picked are loved beyond their genres, not only people who listen to the 60's love the Beatles, not only people who love 40's swing love Sinatra, Brown is significant because he started funk, which have been influential on many genres already. Even people who don't like electric guitars on distortion love Nirvana because their songs are strong and the words aren't that usual teenage fabrication. I have not yet met one person who is not especially into Rock but still loves Zappa. Actually, I think Zappa is already quite forgotten by the general public. You can of course be remembered by specialist fans or art historians, when I'm talking about being remembered, I'm talking about the mainstream, I'm talking about still having some of your tunes getting recognized by the majority, the way most people still recognize Glen Miller's "In the Mood" from the Swing Era, even if they can't name it.
Btw, the Beatles and Dylan had always been my favorites among pop/rock but putting beside my personal taste, I was not surprised when the year 1999 came and all magazines like Q and the Rolling Stone started out making top 100 musicians of the century lists, almost every time the Beatles was voted by the readers or selected by the editors as number one. Dylan was number two or three, again, in almost any case, that has not changed much in the last 15 years. They still are.
I dont think, the level of creativity and artistic innovation those two brought is a matter of doubt.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 13, 2014 02:39 PM |
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You forget that Zappa wasn't that popular in the first place. Too complex, for the most part and the majority of (easy) listeners - I mean, we are not talking about shopping mall muzak here -, and Zappa himself was aware of that and made fun of it often enough. (Little green Rosetta, anyone?)
It's not about who will whistle a Beatles melody in some elevator, in 100 years.
I also disagree, by the way, about the artistry of playing an instrument. Playing an instrument is first and foremost hard work and training - everyone with the right prerequisites (a lot of instruments will profit from long fingers, for example) CAN do it, and there ARE those who do - the internet and youtube is full of young people who obviously did that and can play things well enough - the most you can get out of this is a remarkable interpretation of a known piece. COMPOSING, though, is something else completely.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 13, 2014 03:06 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:09, 13 Nov 2014.
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No, I don't forget that, on the contrary, I say what makes him special for some people is quite historical and genre based rather than purely musical and that is an unlikely situation to reproduce itself, 200 years from now. You can say there are always artists who are less popular but more enduring but if that's what you're getting at, I don't think Zappa has the "beyond his genre" quality required for this endurance, it's not the point that Zappa is less popular, it's if you are not significantly familiar with Rock and its conventions, Zappa is not very relatable.
And keep in mind that "elevator music" is also Four Seasons by Vivaldi or Stairway to Heaven by Led Zeppelin. Turning into elevator music isn't the sign of a bad thing, it usually derives from the revisibility of the music, which is good.
I didn't understand what you particularly object to when it comes to what I say about virtuosity. Some people like to focus on virtuosity and mastery in performance while listening to music, those people usually end up mainly listening to Classical and Jazz, because there, even the common performers surpass the performers of other genres. If you can play like Charlie Parker, you wont end up as Bruce Springsteen's sax player. If you can play like Glen Gould, you most probably wont be playing keyboards for Pink Floyd. So, 200 years from now, when all the social context; the pop culture, the iconography, the familiarity of belonging to the same age and life-style, things such as listening to them on TV as a kid or having them as your favorite band in high-school and growing up with them etc, disappears, when the listener is in the condition to pick one of these performances sorely based on his search for virtuosity and musical performance, genres such as Rock, Hip Hop or Folk do not have the advantage.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 13, 2014 03:44 PM |
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Thanks JJ. Always knew you were good for something. Fyi, I'm having a heckofatime with a brain-farts and a keyboard that's getting highjacked by key fairies.
Anyway, Zappa is ok with me but he's far from anything like a favorite. I don't remember how I got the thing but I had a wall-poster of him sitting barebutt on the toilet, titled "Frank Zappa Crappa"...wonder what that "art" would be worth today? <vbg>
@ artu
You know man I had an inspiration just now, you should make a slight tweak. How's about Art&U
Cheers all...make it great today
____________
"Do your own research"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 13, 2014 03:50 PM |
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A pun I've heard quite often my friend, that one and of course, R2 D2 is the other. Cheers
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 13, 2014 03:53 PM |
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You are mixing quite a few things up here.
It's not about popularity - I mean, what do you think, how "popular" is Franz Liszt - or has ever been, even though he was a piano virtuoso AND a composer AND he died only 130 years ago? Not that much of a name, right?
Things have changed a lot, and contemporary music is nearly infinite in its amount and variedness.
That was different in past times - there haven't been much except a couple dozens of composers, so the "classics" have kind of a different "upbringing".
Now. Is there REALLY a deep structural difference when you compare The Who's Tommy with, say, van Beethoven's Fidelio. I wouldn't think so - except that it's a different kind of music played with different instruments.
The "pop music" will get always airplay: commercials, elevators, shopping malls, airplanes - background noise (comparable with the commercial use of certain paintings), that will make some tunes "survive" for the general public. But the rest will - as with the classics - depend on whether it's PLAYED LIVE ON STAGE, like it's done with Zappa's music for some time now, or like it's done with others in the form of "musicals" (Queen, Abby, Buddy Holly come to mind).
Music has to be performed, and people have to go there and listen.
Then there is virtuosity. Of course people like that, and of course it's a great accomplishment to master an instrument in a way that allows you to play everything (or most) that was ever written for that instrument - or just played.
But that doesn't need a lot of creativity - just discipline and training - in that way, the virtuoso isn't any different from a professional sportsman or gymnast. EVERYONE who trains and trains and trains and trains for something becomes a virtuoso in what was trained - but without the composition(al ability) to play it's like someone being able to press the keys of a typewriter a couple thousand times per minute and in every imaginable order: what is produced here must be readable, make sense and be enjoyable, otherwise it's not worth much.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 13, 2014 04:13 PM |
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How can one talk about musical structure without being able to read, memorize and consequently properly analyze it? I mean, at this level of bragged amateurish, any usage of capitals should be used with great care.
Take for example Shakespeare's specialists: do you believe those guys create books about its work structure and inspirations roots only after vaguely watching theater representations, without spending a few decades to read and re-read it from all angles, armed with multiple tools, satiated by previous studies and time-lines cultural bedrocks?
I have nothing against various tastes and people styles preferences. But comparing Beethoven structure to "who's Tommy" or whatever and saying is similar is laughable, any serious musician will laugh in your face.
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Era II mods and utilities
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 13, 2014 04:25 PM |
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@JJ
Well, I think Liszt IS popular, not as popular as Bach for sure but he is even in Tom & Jerry and most people I know will recognize his Hungarian Rhapsody. So, he is not a "Salieri" and I think Zappa will most likely be so. (Even if we take the criteria of stage music and I don't think there will be many rock concerts 200 years from now, just like there are no night balls with Foxtrot anymore except for nostalgia costume parties and special events. Rock music already lost a lot of blood since electronic music replaced "bands" as dance and party music but that's another case.)
I am not focusing on commercial music btw, I'm saying if something is ALSO used as commercial music, it's usually a sign that it's not forgotten on another scale.
When it comes to virtuosity, I'm on the same page with you that it does not impress me all by itself but the thing is, for some kinds of music it is a requirement. That is, Bob Dylan can play the guitar to some degree, he can compose Rock songs holding a guitar but if he wants to play a Jazz song the way Jazz should be played, he simply can't. And for an ear that has been "trained" by Jazz or Classical, it is hard to appreciate a guitar solo by, say, Slash for the sake of virtuosity. It's like, as a teenager I liked the blues of the Yardbirds, I still listen to it occasionally cause it's fun. But since T. Bone Walker or B.B. King trained my ear, I expect a higher level of nuance and sensitivity from a blues solo than what the Yardbirds play.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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This thread is pages long: 
