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JollyJoker
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posted November 13, 2014 04:30 PM |
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@ Artu
Here
is an example of a meeting between virtuoso play and composition ability. Interestingly enough, only 70.000 clicks.
Now look at this.
3.000.000 clicks.
Something to think about, right?
@ Sal
You may know Fidelio, but you have no idea about the other side of the equation since you can't stand that kind of music, you said - so how can you even comment?
In my opinion you are suffering from elitist musical snobbism, so don't bother.
Lastly, I have no idea whether you respect KH Stockhausen as a composer or not, but it's interesting what he had to say on the 9/11 attacks:
Quote:
Well, what happened there is, of course — now all of you must adjust your brains — the biggest work of art there has ever been. The fact that spirits achieve with one act something which we in music could never dream of, that people practise ten years madly, fanatically for a concert. And then die. [Hesitantly.] And that is the greatest work of art that exists for the whole Cosmos. Just imagine what happened there. There are people who are so concentrated on this single performance, and then five thousand people are driven to Resurrection. In one moment. I couldn't do that. Compared to that, we are nothing, as composers. [...] It is a crime, you know of course, because the people did not agree to it. They did not come to the "concert". That is obvious. And nobody had told them: "You could be killed in the process."
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artu
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posted November 13, 2014 04:38 PM |
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Well, sexy chick will sure get click. 
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artu
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posted November 13, 2014 05:41 PM |
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While speculating here about music and centuries, a friend just shared this on Facebook. I'm not posting this to make a point, btw, it was just one of those funny coincidences and it's not a bad arrangement at all, quite fun to listen to:
Metalicas One with medieval arrangement.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 13, 2014 06:19 PM |
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Will have to delay listening to that to tomorrow (and will come back to you).
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markkur
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posted November 14, 2014 03:35 PM |
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@ artu
I'm old school and that did not float my boat. I just don't believe anyone/group that becomes a ahem, Star in a certain field can just jump where they like and hold the same edge. To my tastes, it's not bad but its not good.
This one works for me because Wolf Hoffman went back and picked something old that fit his own abilities; "a piece of high energy from the past."
In The Hall Of The Mountain King
Hoffman
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artu
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posted November 14, 2014 03:57 PM |
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Too me, it's the opposite Markkur, I almost never like versions of classical pieces played with 80's style rock guitar, the orchestral versions sound much better and I stick to them, and I DO listen to In the Hall of the Mountain King, I have the classical version on cd.
Yet, when they take some pop or rock hit and turn it into acoustic music I usually like the results such as Johnny Cash doing U2's One or Depech Mode's Personal Jesus. I also like unplugged concerts, whether it's Lenny Kravitz or Nirvana or Stevie Ray Vaughan. It's not a strict rule for me and there are many exceptions but it seems like as the years go passing by, I started to prefer acoustic music to the sound of distortions and wah wah pedals more and more.
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markkur
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posted November 14, 2014 08:07 PM |
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artu said:
Too me, it's the opposite Markkur, I almost never like versions of classical pieces played with 80's style rock guitar, the orchestral versions sound much better and I stick to them, and I DO listen to In the Hall of the Mountain King, I have the classical version on cd.
Not opposite at all really. I did NOT say Hoffman was better than the way "ithotmk" <L> was intended to be played. I'd "much" rather hear "Hall" done right but you posted a guy who <imo> only has a voice for yelling rock and what? He sings something old sounding and that made that voice better? Don't think so. But like what makes art, Art...we're all wired differently.
As always, take care my cantankerous friend. Or is it more likely ma-meeee? 
Cheers
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artu
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posted November 14, 2014 08:49 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:50, 14 Nov 2014.
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I'm not much of a Metallica fan really but if I remember the song correctly, the vocals aren't that different. It's not like he's roaring or something and what I liked about it is how the flute matched the melody so spontaneously.
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artu
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posted November 18, 2014 02:29 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Nessun Dorma is coming from other galaxies. We can't compare such things, but only be happy such people existed and created them for us, to enjoy and become better humans.
What do you think about this guy, Sal? I recently watched his biopic, he goes to Italy before the TV show and auditions for Pavarotti, who tells him that he's too nervous to be a stage artist, so he's crushed. It was a good movie, btw.
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Salamandre
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posted November 18, 2014 03:17 PM |
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Touching guy, horrible singing; this is how reality-show destroys a person.
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artu
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posted November 18, 2014 03:31 PM |
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I can see your point if you say he has his flaws but horrible? BEFORE the TV show, how was he accepted in the opera school in Italy and managed to become one of the few in his class to audition for Pavarotti then? If it was so horrible?
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Salamandre
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posted November 18, 2014 03:41 PM |
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Anyone can go take a master class, given they pay it. You can go take a master class, there is no selection before. What is important is not that he took a master class with Pavarotti, but what this served later. Did this guy got any contract with a major opera or classical manager since 2007? Not a single one.
There isn't any form of appreciation from the professional classic world.
Let me say one thing: to judge his performance, you would have had to hear his performance alone, without the benefit of visual cues, backstory or creative television editing. People are often swayed by emotional cues, subtle or otherwise, often without having realized it. However inspiring this guy story may be, he's not a good singer.
If you enjoy his voice, and his story resonates with you, then enjoy away, I am my self touched, and this is why I wrote "touching guy".
Sincerity is no real substitute for talent and training. The success he gets from those low quality shows is an insult to true professionals who train hard, but that's modern era, uneducated ears prevail.
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artu
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posted November 18, 2014 03:49 PM |
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Well, I'm not specifically moved by his technique or anything. I don't have his albums. But when I listen to it, I don't hear something horrible. Horrible makes me think of something that disturbs me when I hear it, he doesn't. He is listenable. I must say though, Opera is the branch of classical music I am most distant to, so I don't have too many performances to compare it in my head like you. Your brain probably scans through the dozens of better versions when you hear it.
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Salamandre
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posted November 18, 2014 03:53 PM |
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Horrible means the his technical mastery is void. Everyone can sing a little thing and get you touched, this is not a problem. My girl friend does a huge career as pop and when she sings barely you can hear from 10 cm, we often laugh at how is this possible.
But when you go opera and sing nessun dorma, other considerations and basis are required.
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artu
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posted November 18, 2014 04:01 PM |
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Your girlfriend's a pop singer? Aha, you traitor to your own cause!
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Salamandre
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posted November 18, 2014 04:08 PM |
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We always agreed that love can make you blind, but never deaf. When I look at her, I become deaf then all ok.
You can judge yourself, lol. And they love it.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 18, 2014 04:44 PM |
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Sorry to barge in, but that is a really bad version of The Cure's Forest, and her singing isn't even close to Robert Smith's.
Looks are ok, though. 
But in this case I think I know what you mean.
However you should remember that "music" has many different faces: if you have ONLY the singer, then it's true - the voice must be strong, it must carry, it must have volume, it must be precise and it must contain and radiate everything that's in the melody and in the words.
If, however, there is more than a voice - if it' a piece of music that is a mixture of different elements, melodies, rhythms and so on, then one of those is only one of some which all have an important role to play, and often one shouldn't be too dominant.
As an example, take this: Portishead - Glory Box
I hope you see what I mean. You LISTEN. Avidly (I hope). Because it's so intense, and it's more than just the voice.
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artu
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posted November 18, 2014 05:06 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:11, 18 Nov 2014.
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I was obsessed a few weeks with Glory Box in my twenties, well, the album Dummy and especially the songs Glory Box, Sourtimes and Roads. Prefer the studio version though, in studio version it's real strings in the background, here they imitate with synthesizers which is usually something I hate.
Well, before electrical amplification of the voice, being able to go high and loud was a necessity and most singing technics evolved accordingly back then. In blues for example, the performers from the twenties and early thirties have this style of load vocals, so does the jump blues of big bands, because they usually used to play in crap roadhouses without microphones and stuff, and since the delta players were usually "me and my acoustic guitar" type, most players from the era can easily play both the bass line with their thumb and the chords with other fingers.
But as recording in studios became the norm, that kind of vocal sometimes began to be considered irrelevant for some of the songs, maybe singing as if whispering it would suit the mood of the song better, John Lee Hooker for instance, has this style where he sings as if he's neurotically mumbling something and it moves me more than many ordinary singers who can go high and low on this or that many octaves.
Btw, she's a looker, Sal. I, of course, wasn't impressed by the vocals either.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
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posted November 18, 2014 08:24 PM |
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I had the pleasure to see Portishead (and Beth Gibbons) live and it was really amazing (and a different experience altogether than listening to the record), but that's beside the point.
What I wanted to say is, that a voice is not solely defined by technicalities like volume, the ability to hold a note for a long time and so on, but also the ability to express moods to convey a meaning, to transport a myriad of emotions and to be in harmony with the music(al arrangement).
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artu
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posted November 18, 2014 08:43 PM |
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I totally agree but in Classical music a level of technical mastery is also required to sing the related material properly and that doesn't mean they skip emotion.
Virtuosity is much like a rich vocabulary in poetry, it enhances your zone of expression, not just because of the number of rhymes you can come up with or similar things, it enhances the the way you contemplate things. Just like a poet with a rich vocabulary doesn't have to use some very seldom used, unknown words in each of his poems, a composer or performer doesn't have to push his technical limits every time he makes music. Yet, the ability itself gives him freedom and a broader perspective.
I think in Classical music (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Sal) the real virtuosity is claimed when you had already been through technical stuff and craft, it's no longer something that drains your energy, playing becomes like muscle reflex to you and then, you mature and focus on the emotion part with greater precision.
The show-off kind of virtuosity as in "look, I can play 40 notes in 10 seconds" is immature but it's usually some wanna-be Heavy Metal guitarist or someone similar who goes that way, not the classical players (and not the Classical music listeners either).
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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This thread is pages long: 
