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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 09, 2014 03:41 AM |
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xerox said:
Bulgaria (and Romania) are special. They were kinda rushed into the EU and wrongfully so. European leaders have realized this and sharpened the membership requirements of the EU. I think it is very unlikely that we will see something like Bulgaria and Romania again, and I think demanding a referendum (like Croatia had) is a standard procedure since then. We will see if there are referendums in Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia, which are the most likely countries to join the EU atm.
Macedonia and Serbia will never enter the EU. Macedonia has a name issue Serbia has territorial issues.
Even if they were to join, they would never be equal members or ever get into the Schengen zone.
EU membership used to be prestigious thing. Bulgaria and Romania were rushed into the EU to get the magical mysterious pipelines be in the EU.
Heck, even Greece was rushed in the EU.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 09, 2014 03:54 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 04:00, 09 Apr 2014.
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Quote:
That is much better than a direct democracy which will lead to stupid and short-term decisions, a lack of accountability for said bad policy (because unlike in a representative democracy, there are no representatives to blame) and generally, a low voter turnout which ironically damages that democratic legitimacy you're aiming for.
which seems to be what is happening in our representative democracy.
and people shouldn't be able to express themselves under the only assumption that they may be stupid?
Quote:
However, politics cover a huge span of issues and it is understandable that the vast majority of people don't feel like spending time becoming experts at every issue. So one of the good things about a representative democracy is that you don't need to be informed about eveything.
I don't think it's necessary for people to be experts on everything. isn't it the role of journalists to bring the relevant information, so that non-expert can make an informed decision?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 09, 2014 07:47 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 07:49, 09 Apr 2014.
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xerox said:
Considering the treatment of the Roma people in those countries, people who are now begging on the streets of Swedish towns and cities because that life is better than what they have in their home countries, I wouldn't say they were ready. And again, i'm not saying that Ukraine is going to become a EU member in the near future. I'm specifically saying its a long-term effort. To be more specific, I think EU membership for Ukraine is atleast a decade off.
You will do very well to keep the Roma away from this topic, as most Westerners you are totally ignorant on the matter. The questions are whether the people of certain new members ware asked if they want to join the EU (and NATO) and whether the association/accession agreements were sufficiently discussed in public. I'll help you - the answer to both of them is most certainly NO. Now back to the other question - why do you think that the Ukrainians will really be asked about anything or told anything? You know, like, in a democratic fashion?
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 09, 2014 08:19 AM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 08:24, 09 Apr 2014.
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Aron said:
Kiph I think living under that old fart was bad. It's just that this is worse. That doesn't mean that things couldn't have been better.
None of this that has happened in the past matters.
All that matters now is that eggs have been thrown. I repeat eggs have been thrown.
Altho I don't have any information on who is throwing and why.
What I meant is to compare the conditions under this junta and under yanukovych.
where was better? seeing as this junta is now crapping it's pants and more and more people everyday realise they were snowed in the arse, and are slowly turning against it. armed, like they moved against El Presidente Viktor Yanukovych.
The power was seized by brutal force. this junta with all their crap won't last long.
Yanukovych is guilty of not using direct force once the violence kicked into the fifth gear. now there's many dead or injured and half of Kiev is in snowing ruins.
once our retards back in 2009 January I believe fiddled with pensions and other stuff, protesters were calmed instantly with rubber bullets and tear gas. And we're a shining example of a free and democratic country. YAY!
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 09, 2014 08:59 AM |
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Well I think it was mostly better because of the Russian discounts not because of the governments themselves. Then again Tymoshenka has a bigger villa than Yanukovich so maybe she is better att corruption too.
Also nice video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejw8qiaQQHk#t=38
Russians are being payed. But it's people paying organizers to buy food ^.^...kinda interesting. If they were funded from the outside I doubt this would happen.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 09, 2014 09:05 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 09:07, 09 Apr 2014.
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@Kip,
Quote:
Ihor: Is this what you and your fellow protesters been freezing your arse off for? I thought you guys wanted change to the good side. And cutting down on pensions increased commodity prices don't seem to me as a good change. was it worth it?
Surely living under yanukovych's "regime" isn't such a bad thing now, is it?
You are saying as if there was still Yanukovych, the situation would be better. His government ruined economy completely in 4 years when he was in power and he has the ultimate responsibility of what we have now. We have to fix the economy now and these actions made by the new government are not a surprise for us. Better hearing a bitter truth than continue falling into the deep pit, right? Yanukovych regime was an utter evil and we are happy he doesn't rob the country for another year. Did you see the photos of Yanukovych's and his managers' houses? Could be nice museums of corruption. Current week in Rada is anticorruption week by the way and several important laws might be accepted. Yesterday Rada canceled the notorious car utilization fee, that Yanukovych pushed last year to take money from average Ukrainians. Also very important law to renew trust to courts, some investigation will be held to find corrupted judges, that broke the law over previous months.
In addition to this, all these protests are only a bit related to economy. We call this revolution of dignity. If the regime wants to oppress people, they have moral right to fight against the regime. We want democracy, we don't want restrictions of freedom of speech, or court decisions based not on law but on the instructions from some wealthy people. We don't want to see how our fellows are kidnapped and tortured just for having a different opinion. We don't want laws that restrict wearing helmets. All we want is fairness and equality. And Yanukovych is the antipode to that, so we ousted him. And if the new government will not make correct conclusions from all this, we will oust them as well. Sooner or later.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 09, 2014 09:13 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 09:14, 09 Apr 2014.
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Zenofex; it's likely there will be a referendum because you don't want EU-hostile parties getting power due to the people not actually wanting to be part of the EU.
Fauch said:
That is much better than a direct democracy which will lead to stupid and short-term decisions, a lack of accountability for said bad policy (because unlike in a representative democracy, there are no representatives to blame) and generally, a low voter turnout which ironically damages that democratic legitimacy you're aiming for.
Nah, governments are sacked all the time in representative democracies. As for voter turnout, just compare referendums in Switzerland to a typical parliamentary or presidential election in a European representative democracy.
Quote:
I don't think it's necessary for people to be experts on everything. isn't it the role of journalists to bring the relevant information, so that non-expert can make an informed decision?
I'm not saying that freedom of expression or anything like that should be infringed upon, I'm just stating practical reasons for why a representative democracy is way better than an active,
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 09, 2014 09:24 AM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 09:34, 09 Apr 2014.
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Ihor, houses don't mean shyte. that was the "presidential" residence given the president to stay in by the country, not Yanukovych's personal manor. If we peeked into other eastern bloc presidential residences we'd find similiar crap.
It's like all those 'new russians'. that's a mental illness.
And you got your dignity. smooth job 
tell of dignity to a lonely senior who had his/her pension cut down in half, and now s/he can't afford basic commodities and medicine. Is this dignified living? In my opinion not.
You and all those who wasted time and froze your bloody arses off were screwed over by the "leaders of the opposition"
what you need to do is destroy all those farts who been leeching away your countries well being and screwing over people, and install young innovative people who actually want to do something for the best of Ukraine and it's people.
These "revolutions" can't continue for long, or else Ukraine will be destroyed from inside, which may be one of the goals overall.
I see now that everything went from bad to worst. Surely things were snowed under yanukovych, yet now it seems to things to be unbearable.
I think that this isn't what you've been fighting for.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 09, 2014 09:26 AM |
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ihor said:
You are saying as if there was still Yanukovych, the situation would be better. His government ruined economy completely in 4 years when he was in power and he has the ultimate responsibility of what we have now. We have to fix the economy now and these actions made by the new government are not a surprise for us. Better hearing a bitter truth than continue falling into the deep pit, right? Yanukovych regime was an utter evil and we are happy he doesn't rob the country for another year. Did you see the photos of Yanukovych's and his managers' houses? Could be nice museums of corruption. Current week in Rada is anticorruption week by the way and several important laws might be accepted. Yesterday Rada canceled the notorious car utilization fee, that Yanukovych pushed last year to take money from average Ukrainians. Also very important law to renew trust to courts, some investigation will be held to find corrupted judges, that broke the law over previous months.
In addition to this, all these protests are only a bit related to economy. We call this revolution of dignity. If the regime wants to oppress people, they have moral right to fight against the regime. We want democracy, we don't want restrictions of freedom of speech, or court decisions based not on law but on the instructions from some wealthy people. We don't want to see how our fellows are kidnapped and tortured just for having a different opinion. We don't want laws that restrict wearing helmets. All we want is fairness and equality. And Yanukovych is the antipode to that, so we ousted him. And if the new government will not make correct conclusions from all this, we will oust them as well. Sooner or later.
This is finally the voice of a wise man. I can only say that the most of the PL people supports your way to democracy.
In addition, I think that it's not a matter of possible civil war but rather actions of RU special services.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 09, 2014 09:30 AM |
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kipshasz said:
Ihor, houses don't mean shyte. that was the "presidential" residence given the president to stay in by the country, not Yanukovych's personal manor. If we peeked into other eastern bloc presidential residences we'd find similiar crap.
It's like all those 'new russians'. that's a mental illness.
If you mean that big wooden "cabin" of a villa I thought it was his personal home that he "owned"?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 09, 2014 09:36 AM |
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Quote:
Zenofex; it's likely there will be a referendum because you don't want EU-hostile parties getting power due to the people not actually wanting to be part of the EU.
Short answer: that's totally irrelevant. You can have one party with less than 50% popular support in power and still join the EU like a charm. Those who don't agree will be completely neglected and the propaganda will convince the rest that it's absolutely normal to literally dismantle the national economy and agree with completely ridiculous "reforms" which will not do crap to improve the living standards of the vast majority of the population.
Quote:
In addition, I think that it's not a matter of possible civil war but rather actions of RU special services.
Yeah, and the Russians claim that there are American mercenaries and right-wing radicals in Eastern Ukraine who are trying to do the same, only for the opposing side's benefit. Take your pick.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 09, 2014 09:37 AM |
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@Aron: yes, the very same. We have a closed off district guarded heavily for the president, prime minister and some other super important fat basterds. If we took a peek there, we'd see the same sickening luxury.
This is a nice way to motivate people into rebelling. show in what luxury all the basterds live while you're an inpoverised slave working under part time in the papers but in truth covering full 12 hour shift for half the minimum wage.
Forward humiliated slaves, power to the people! sort of speak.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 09, 2014 09:58 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 10:02, 09 Apr 2014.
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ihor said:
You are saying as if there was still Yanukovych, the situation would be better. His government ruined economy completely in 4 years when he was in power and he has the ultimate responsibility of what we have now. We have to fix the economy now and these actions made by the new government are not a surprise for us. Better hearing a bitter truth than continue falling into the deep pit, right? Yanukovych regime was an utter evil and we are happy he doesn't rob the country for another year. Did you see the photos of Yanukovych's and his managers' houses? Could be nice museums of corruption. Current week in Rada is anticorruption week by the way and several important laws might be accepted. Yesterday Rada canceled the notorious car utilization fee, that Yanukovych pushed last year to take money from average Ukrainians. Also very important law to renew trust to courts, some investigation will be held to find corrupted judges, that broke the law over previous months.
Dear Ihor, please tell me how many politicians do you know which live only with their salaries. I am afraid 10 fingers on your hands will be enough. You keep talking about Yanukovitch's villas and other private property, "stolen from people", but somehow you forget about the comparable amount of private property belonging to all other politicians, in every country - Germany, Russia, whatever.
Yanukovitch's villa was just unlucky to be shown in mass media, and did people who broke in return 'the stolen goods to the people'? Nah, dude. They took it for themselves, feasting like carrions, because everyone cares only for self. And now what we can see is that people who led the rebellion become the new barons and dukes. Just as planned.
Every politician is like that. Yanukovitch's villa is a really humble example of a presidential villa. In Russia, for example, we do have castles and strongholds belonging... to town mayors!
Yanukovitch was just a fool for he could not hide his property more careful from the curious 'revolutioneers' eyes.
And aside from the corruption topic. I am very 'amused' to see how the current Kiev government sends the troops to cease the pro-russian sentiment in the Eastern regions, and fights... with the opposition, yeah! They fight with the people who behave just like them 5 months before. And yes, they consider this behaviour illegitimate! It's a real bloody circus. And again, people will be the ones who will suffer the most.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 09, 2014 10:06 AM |
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Orzie is right. this is the problem with post soviet politicians. they know no bounds when it comes to hoarding wealth. some are more posh than the others.
and besides, everyone here would do it if they could.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted April 09, 2014 10:40 AM |
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Only if wealth as in money had any actual real value. Maybe hoarding property or gold then sure, but for the fun of it. Even then I wouldn't kill anyone over it, since I have this clear-cut emotional attachment to the things that I earnt and these I do protect, and treat as an extension of myself. (winning the lottery getting presents all that crap I just waste, I'll be grateful but slowly dying inside having to hoard crap that's 'not mine'.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 09, 2014 10:44 AM |
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]Zenofex; They're more worried about the potential populist and nationalist backlash AFTER EU membership.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted April 09, 2014 03:16 PM |
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Just wondering if this is more than language and nationality. It would not be the first time that people-concerns were used as a smokescreen for greed.
"If" the 'behind the scenes' were centered on Energy, markets, etc...check out the BBC map showing where Gas fields are located.
link
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 09, 2014 03:25 PM |
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ihor said:
You are saying as if there was still Yanukovych, the situation would be better. His government ruined economy completely in 4 years when he was in power and he has the ultimate responsibility of what we have now. We have to fix the economy now and these actions made by the new government are not a surprise for us. Better hearing a bitter truth than continue falling into the deep pit, right?
Tss, our politician always pretend they owe us the truth. the bitter one. that's what Valls just did when he took the place of prime minister the other day. it just sounded like a bad joke to a lot of people (probably most).
you know your current government is probably happy the previous one ruined you, because they can be honest in saying you are gonna be screwed, while you all believe it is for the better in the future. until the next government come, tell you the previous one screwed up, that they owe you the bitter truth, and that you will have to give again a bit more for a brighter future (which is probably coming after your death and the death of your children)
I will quote some dictator :
The party states that his accession to power is the way to realize its objectives, and that his objectives are those of the people. Such is the theory which justifies the dictatorship of the party and is the basis of all dictatorships. Whatever the number of parties, the theory remain the same. Even better, the existence of several parties exacerbates the struggle for power... which leads to the annihilation of all achievements of the nation, and sabotates all plans of development of the society. This is this destruction which justifies the attempt of the rival party to take the place of the party in power. The parties struggle, if it doesn't end in an armed struggle - which is rare - takes the form of mutual critics and denigration. This is a struggle that happens at the expense of the vital and supreme interests of the society, of which, some members, if not all, will inevitably pay the price of the struggle of apparatuses for accession to power. Because it's in the collapsing of the interests that the opposing party(ies) find the proof of the justice of their argumentation against the party(ies) in power.
The opposing party, as a "government apparatus" desiring access to power, must necessarily shoot down the apparatus in power, and to do so, he has to undermine his realizations and denigrate his projects, even if they are profitable to the society.
ihor said:
We want democracy
then it seems you are doing it wrong, unless you want Xerox's democracy?
ihor said:
we don't want restrictions of freedom of speech, or court decisions based not on law but on the instructions from some wealthy people.
and who made those laws? and that will be even better under the EU with laws written by banksters that no government has no power to modify.
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 09, 2014 03:32 PM |
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These are very interesting charts but I only want to remind you that Crimea until XVIII century was ruled by Tatars. Today's ethnic identity is the only result of deportations them and ethnic cleansing made by Stalin.
Secondly, when Ukraine gets independence it's Russia was supposed to be one of the guarantors of the integrity of its borders.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 09, 2014 05:01 PM |
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Non-Russians love to shout about 'ethnic cleansing' made by tyrant Stalin while disregarding the fact that every 3rd Russian is Tatar or has Tatar relatives. Just look at their faces, the hair. The surnames.
There is no such ethnicity as 'Russian'.
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