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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 10, 2014 03:23 PM |
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ihor said:
@Zenofex
Ukraine already waited and did nothing in Crimea, you know the result. Sending armed forces is the right decision, in my opinion. And actually the new government sent a message saying:
1) The separatists who give away guns will not be arrested.
2) The course for decentralization is declared, so every region will have more possibilities to manage taxes and local questions.
Appears fair enough.
I believe you but can you source point 2? Since I've read the opposite.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 10, 2014 05:18 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 17:19, 10 Apr 2014.
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Quote:
Ukraine already waited and did nothing in Crimea, you know the result. Sending armed forces is the right decision, in my opinion. And actually the new government sent a message saying:
1) The separatists who give away guns will not be arrested.
2) The course for decentralization is declared, so every region will have more possibilities to manage taxes and local questions.
Appears fair enough.
The difference is that in Crimea Russia had the opportunity to respond with force immediately and generally start an open war if provoked. It has all reasons to be more cautious in Eastern Ukraine, especially given that it has already won a lot ground by de facto annexing Crimea without any major international resistance (a lot of noise though). It can easily use any sort of violence against the Russian-speakers there as an excuse to undermine the interim government's position internationally at the very least or start an invasion in the worst case. Treating the people in the east as potential enemies or traitors will lead to nothing good - you will have to live with them after the whole thing ends.
I'd like to see what promises have been given to the regions that they'll be treated fairly as well.
In other news (pun intended) some German journalists claim to have evidences that not all of the snipers on the Maidan were working for the government.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 10, 2014 05:36 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 17:41, 10 Apr 2014.
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Isn't Donetsk pretty much the only place in eastern Ukraine where the Russians can successfully get the amount of support they need to justify annexation? The Russian minorities aren't very large outside of Donetsk. Nowhere near the amount of Russians in Crimea, who are probably also extra patriotic due to the military base and historical heritage.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 10, 2014 07:05 PM |
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Orzie said:
And yes, would you like to pay me for I can praise Poland? It was a great kingdom once in a time... in the past. 
and even then they had Lithuanians as their kings. without us and our vast amount of tatar troops they'd been crushed to dust by the krauts back then. No polak ever besieged Moscow three times in a row.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 10, 2014 07:08 PM |
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xerox said:
Isn't Donetsk pretty much the only place in eastern Ukraine where the Russians can successfully get the amount of support they need to justify annexation? The Russian minorities aren't very large outside of Donetsk. Nowhere near the amount of Russians in Crimea, who are probably also extra patriotic due to the military base and historical heritage.
historical heritage:
1648 Khmelnytsky Uprising - Consequences: decline of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, territorial expansion of the Russian Tsardom.
1654 Treaty of Pereyaslav - Consequences: the separation of Ukraine from formerly dominant Catholic Poland and domination of Ukraine by Russia.
Crimea was ruled by Tatars till XVIII century.
You can find such charts for other countries and I will explain you how it is happenned.
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 10, 2014 07:23 PM |
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kipshasz said:
and even then they had Lithuanians as their kings.
Yes we had Lithuanian king who married Polish princess -thanks to that LT exists till now. But nobody in PL is praising Hitler and nobody in PL was in SS during II WW.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 10, 2014 07:56 PM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 20:13, 10 Apr 2014.
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BrennusWhiskey is cute. really cute. I like him. your typical pole. Wilno naszce KURWA!!!!
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 10, 2014 08:12 PM |
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kipshasz said:
BrennusWhiskey is cute. really cute. I like him. your typical pole. Wilno naszce eh?
You can speak Polish man I know your complex. Its Portuguese complex - big country in middle ages - small country now.
If u want to be a part of Russia its your way - but remember Poland never had been a part of Soviet Union.
You can praise your Russians ancestors - we have no such things in PL; we learnt RU but its not our languauage man.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 10, 2014 08:20 PM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 20:23, 10 Apr 2014.
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I'm of Tatar noble ancestry, we had an estate in the Belarussian part of Belovez. So not Russian. Tatar.
Nikodem Sulik, who was a quite famous general in the polak army was also of tatar descent. coincidence or not, his last name is the same as mine.
Also why you weren't par of the Soviet Union itself, your goverment were commie puppets. as was the same in Yugoslavia and the rest of the gang.
But it's not relevant to this thread.
This thread is about west sponsored bandits who took over Ukraine's already crappy goverment, made it worse and are now haggling with that currency fund or whatever it is to worsen the living conditions of your average Ukrainian.
Also if we look at Ukrainian constitution, the president loses the seat of power in two ways: resignation or death before the end of the term.
So if we look at this from a lawyer's point of view, this whole crap is illegal as snow.
also if we wer in power, we'd probably would do the same snowing thing he did, so yea. no one is saint here.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 10, 2014 10:03 PM |
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Edited by Baklava at 22:04, 10 Apr 2014.
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To clarify, though, Yugoslavia wasn't a Soviet puppet. Communist regime, yeah, but there was actually a very real threat of Soviet invasion during the crisis when Tito gave Stalin the finger after World War 2 and went off to found the Non-Aligned Movement.
Yugoslavia was actually a formidable state. Back In The Day.
Useless fact of the day.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 10, 2014 10:16 PM |
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yay I learned something useless!
But in general, Stalin was a paranoid idiot. so no wonder Tito flipped him off.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 10, 2014 10:30 PM |
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some of the swedish-balkan people I now seem pretty nostalgic about Tito:/
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 10, 2014 10:57 PM |
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Edited by Baklava at 22:59, 10 Apr 2014.
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Being a formidable, sovereign dictatorship gave people a certain sense of security. You had rules - they didn't always make too much sense, but they were simple enough, and you were rewarded for following them and punished (severely) if you didn't. My folks all come from the latter stock, but even they have grown disillusioned by the current state of affairs to the point of prefering the way things were in the '80s.
After the fall of communism, of course, there was no mention of returning property that the reds confiscated. It all pretty much ended in folks feeling like they've been cheated out of their free apartments in developing cities, secured workplaces with benefits, passports that can go wherever they like without visas, paid vacations and safe streets, in exchange for a collection of bickering rump states (which are being made to try pretty hard in order to be allowed to be someone's satellites) ruled by cleptocrats where any purported freedom of speech, expression, enterprise and the like is simply a clumsy mask for propaganda, manipulation and corruption.
Privatization and transition towards Europe have been dealt with disastrously here. You need to understand that. It's not that the people inherently prefer authoritarianism.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 10, 2014 11:20 PM |
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@Orzie
I pay taxes. I see how my money went not for pensions, but for his house. And you are surprised why I am angry about that? You say that I shouldn't be angry because somewhere in Russia you have the same stuff. What a ridiculous argument. Are you satisfied feeling like a slave there?
@Aron
Maybe you mixed up the federalization and decentralization. IMHO the federalization gives nothing for Ukraine, it's like a time bomb as Ukraine might lose another region in the future. Ukraine is mostly populated by Ukrainians, even in East, and therefore unitary state is logical here.
On the other hand decentralization is ok, and even was supported during maidan times. It gives better access to money flows for local organs, and local could be easier controlled by society, which might decrease the level of corruption.
As for the source, sorry the site is in russian, google translate might work for you, and sorry for the mobile version of the site, I am on my phone.
http://m.liga.net/news/politics/181557-yatsenuk_poobeschal_chto_polnomochiya_regionov_budut_rasshireny.htm
@Zenofex and @Orzie
I don't understand you guys in the question of separatism. Imagine people of Kaliningrad publicly declare, they want to join Germany. Then they captured FSB department, then they take hostages, then they ask people of Karelia to take guns and fight for joining Finland. What actions should the Russian government undertake then? Wait? How there can be an excuse for separatism?
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 11, 2014 01:07 AM |
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Edited by seraphim at 01:17, 11 Apr 2014.
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The crisis in ukraine, as in all the other cases, proves in many ways how a "powerful" leader can use mass media or should I say mass propaganda to destroy any sense reason.
Russian news sources from what I have seen have been one dimensional, use cold war era rhetoric and eiither being deliberately stupid or counting on the stupidity of people.
Everytime I have read anything from Russian standpoint, the argument is being made on behalf of somebody who is clearly pro russian, lacks any kind of reasonable logic behind the arguments and couts on your view point. In russia's case, pan slavism.
Its also incessently annoying to always have to excuse yourself to not support US actions. "Oh, I am sorry, US did bad but..." when making a comment. Really, what the US did does not matter when dealing with a crime. The US is guilty of many things,"Oh here comes the USA apology fallacy", but I dont think Russia should be the country which opposes the US. As it stands now, Russia is a fascist state. And really, do I need to argue about this?
Appeal to masses with fascist ideals.
Use of religion to appeal to people, enforcing religious laws
Use of force to subvert another state.
And then there are the commenters. Either people who comment on websites are of the tinfoil hat type of people or they are indeed as stupid as they proclaim to be.
This gives me a very bad impression of what russian people are like.
Everything the US must have done, must have been done or happened in the US, happened with a conspiracy in mind. HIV deniers, 911 truthers, fake moon landing etc.
A recent poll in america even confirmed that 50% of graduate people believe in a medical conspiracy theory. These "theories" have even infected people in america and europe.
This isnt something worrying just about americans, or russians, but for humans in general. A trend towards the middle ages. Doubting HIV? Really? Whats next, doubting gravity? Doubting the internet?
Makes you think how somebody who is a demagouge is able to subert millions of people and actually justify genocide.
Propaganda works an it does disasters in the 21st century.
Just amazing.
You can of course say the same about the US involvement in wars, but what makes it different is the lack of invormation or skewd information regarding Ukraine, especially in Russian/eastern sources.
Everybody knows how there were no WMDs in Iraq, but why is there so much disinformation in Ukraine?
Watch this
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 11, 2014 05:39 AM |
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Because it's polar propaganda. Russian mass media shows only the good side of Russia. Pro-Western info sources unwillingly show some things about the pro-russian protests, but use much different figures of speech. It is drastically changing the impact on the listeners/readers' minds.
And yes, if you try to orient on YouTube comments to guess the nation intellect, I double facepalm towards you.
There is no good side in this crisis. And people on Maidan should have acknowledged what chaos would they create after destabilizing the situation in their home country. Nothing is so easy as there are no friends in politics. The EU and NATO are interested in destabilizing Ukraine as it's the country which is neighbouring Russia and in the same time it has a grudge against it. Russia is interested in destabilizing Ukraine because it has turned its gaze towards the eurointegration. And we can prepare for the next wave of burning arses when some other snow will happen. Now it seems that Russia uses covert ops (just like the EU/US) instead of direct intrusion, and I'm afraid it won't end so fast, so Ukraine is now just a battlefield.
I have no personal problems with the Ukrainians, Polish guys or whoever, but you all behave like you wouldn't do the same thing on Putin's place. Not in the slightest I do believe that. When it's a big politics, personal interests are no more important.
And yes, with all that situation I am afraid to be recognized as supporting everything that happens now. No, everything what happens now decreases my chances to leave Russia someday, which I am afraid of. I'm a musician.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 11, 2014 07:48 AM |
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Orzie said:
you all behave like you wouldn't do the same thing on Putin's place. Not in the slightest I do believe that. When it's a big politics, personal interests are no more important.
i'm not sure what i would do in Putin's place. if i was given an amount of power equal to that of a president/king/whatever, it could go either way. i could see both myself either being a tyrant, or someone who gave it everything they could to be the best leader the world would ever see.
it really could go either way. maybe it would depend on my mood, who knows?
maybe, when a leader makes what could be viewed as a colossal mistake, the only thing they can do is see it through, so that they do not appear weak. not saying that putin thinks so, though. but i can see how this kind of thing could apply to people in power. then, the best thing they can do is try to win people over with disinformation, wait out the worst, and hope for a way out that doesn't make them look like fools. of course, they can try to win people over using the same methods, if they genuinely wanted to be tyrants, as well. but none of this is news, anyway. just more blah blah blah.
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 11, 2014 08:36 AM |
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kipshasz said:
Wilno naszce KURWA!!!!
We are not Russians we won't take your Wilno man
Although many great Poles were born there.
Orzie said:
I have no personal problems with the Ukrainians, Polish guys or whoever, but you all behave like you wouldn't do the same thing on Putin's place. Not in the slightest I do believe that. When it's a big politics, personal interests are no more important.
And yes, with all that situation I am afraid to be recognized as supporting everything that happens now. No, everything what happens now decreases my chances to leave Russia someday, which I am afraid of. I'm a musician.
Nobody says that the vast majority of the population of Crimea are Russians but the main problem is the way how Crimea was taken. I've heard that 106% voted for RU 
And for Western perspective its better to have stability in UKR - trade, workforce and so on...
Orzie said:
I'm a musician.
Stay on that and stop your propaganda man
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 11, 2014 09:17 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 09:21, 11 Apr 2014.
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BrennusWhiskey said:
Stay on that and stop your propaganda man
What I say is not a propaganda, of course. It's a wider view on things without hating some country just because I'm from another one. If you want to stay close-minded, it's your will. You have already described yourself by your posts in this topic.
BrennusWhiskey said:
Nobody says that the vast majority of the population of Crimea are Russians but the main problem is the way how Crimea was taken.
It doesn't matter now how it was taken now. The mass media now talks about 'the further annexion of Ukrainian territories' which means that they have already accepted the Crimean annexion. Just as planned by Russia. If Ukraine had a normal government created by the means of law, not the brute force, Russia would have no chance to make such a trick.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 11, 2014 09:22 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 09:24, 11 Apr 2014.
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Quote:
I don't understand you guys in the question of separatism. Imagine people of Kaliningrad publicly declare, they want to join Germany. Then they captured FSB department, then they take hostages, then they ask people of Karelia to take guns and fight for joining Finland. What actions should the Russian government undertake then? Wait? How there can be an excuse for separatism?
If Kaliningrad decided to join Germany, I'll accept it as something completely normal as it's Russian territory only formally, a continental island of sorts. Russia will not just give it away of course - without a good reason that is - but otherwise it doesn't sound heretical at all.
Look, you seem to misunderstand me, I'm not encouraging separatism in the slightest. The whole thing is not about separatism in the first place but about internal politics. The interim government fails to show itself as one that can be trusted by everyone in their own country and certainly fails on international level (only the propaganda and the stances of certain western governments keep it afloat, really). You got rid of Yanukovych, great, but are the new guys any better? Can you control them? Do you know for sure that they are telling you the truth? Are you sure that they are not going to **** up even more? What will be the borderline between tolerating them and going to the Maidan again, this time to get rid of the until recently heroes? I don't think enough people in Kiev ask themselves these questions at the moment and that's actually normal because every violent riot which results in sacking the government is followed by a period of hope that things are changing for the better, no matter how grim it may seem at the current moment. Problem is, people with power and no scruples wait for exactly such a situation to manipulate the masses for personal gains or just outright betray the nation, if they are installed as puppets from the outside. Are you sure that you don't have such people in power right now?
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