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| Thread: Heroes Universe - Dragon Gods |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 26, 2014 09:21 PM |
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Stevie said:
I heard that they threw away the work on H5 that NWC did when they bought the franchise. Anyone knows the direction in which the storyline developed?
I'm not 100% sure, but I think NWC wanted to continue on Axeoth, discovering a new continent. let me check...
...yes, it was. I highly reccomend to read Like Tears in Rain: The Untold Chapters of Might and Magic article by Cepheus himself. There are a lot of stuff you may not know about 
Stevie said:
And I know old lore had some Sci Fi in it while this one is completely fantasy. Any thoughts on that?
Heroes saga never had sci-fi elements (almost with Forge  ), only the RPG saga had those sci-fi elements (blasters, yaaay).
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted May 27, 2014 06:58 AM |
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Regarding the homm5 nwc project, storywise would have been curious to know what happened to the demons, since they were in heroes4, were they still in necro, and how come stronghold and dungeon merged.
And btw what happened to our lore master Cepheus?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 27, 2014 02:19 PM |
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watcher83 said:
And btw what happened to our lore master Cepheus?
This happened
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted May 27, 2014 05:33 PM |
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My Masterpost in this Thread
Well, most has been said before, but I have to say it: I don't like it. Period. It's a concept that feels like done by a 12 Year old, to whom fantasy is still new and who got introduced to it through flashy series, thundering movies, and such stuff. To whom "Story" means "boring sentences which connect the fighting. That is of course, a bit harsher than I truly feel, but I hope you all get the direction.
At least as presented in Ashan, it's too clear, easy & obvious (as Liz said, I think) and too flashy & action-centred ("which one is the most impressive fantasy creature? uuuh uuuh it must be dragons, let's make THEM our gods"). To me, there are mcuh better concepts I've seen in other games, in books, in movies and in proposals here on HC.
However, that is mainly the taste side and there is another side to it which must not be forgotten: gameplay. Because the dragon gods are a relatively easy way to connect gameplay to setting, make the gameplay REPRESENT the setting. And if you try to do that (and its a good, if not necessary thing, imo), you will have to face that the more complex and open you'd make setting, the more complex and open the gameplay may become. TO me, that would not be bad, but good - but I'm not sure how many people feel that way...
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 27, 2014 06:00 PM |
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I think you're mixing the idea in itself with the way it was told, jiriki. I made this mistake quite a lot so I paid extra attention to this one. I don't want to dismiss it so easily. Yes, I guess dragons are a bit cliche, and something else more enigmatic could've worked better. But overall I think it's not that big of a failure. The narration however is overly generous in explaining everything right away. No mystery no nada.
Ofc I might be biased and my literary culture insufficient to make such appreciations. But.. just my 2 cents if nothing more.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 27, 2014 10:01 PM |
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You cannot compare the style between nwc and ubi. The former knew how to keep a proper mood, whether playful or dramatic. They also had good storytelling and managed to convey more with less. Back in the day cutscenes were not necessary to explain the story or advance the plot.
Part of the problem with ubi, for me at least, is that their storytelling feels forced. Either too serious or too silly. They are trying too hard to emulate the feel of game of thrones, while forgetting what made heroes fun. That said, limbic's adventure packs, written by marzhin show that some people at least still remember what we liked about heroes.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted May 27, 2014 10:27 PM |
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Elvin said:
That said, limbic's adventure packs, written by marzhin show that some people at least still remember what we liked about heroes.
I agree, I've said time and again that Marzhin's adventure packs have been the best storytelling in the ubi era so far. Marzhin should be lead writer on whatever their doing next in the franchise.
I've not been wanting to join this discussion much. Mostly because I care too little about this to throw in my two cents, but since the discussion has turned to storytelling, I might be able to throw in something here and there.
As far as the Gods go, I don't care that they are there, I don't care that they are Dragons, I don't care that they are primarily elemental or that they are worshipped fanatically(Though that mostly goes for Elrath and Asha). The only problem I got with the whole pantheon is that they have been playing off-side since the beginning. If reading Dragonlance novels has thought me anything, it is that if you want Gods to be a big influence in your world they have to get involved themselves, not just their worshippers.(Though some writers do it better than others) In Ashan, the Gods have been locked out of the world since the Elder Wars, I think.(My Compendium is at my parent's house, so I only have access to that in the weekends) But the gist is that the only way the Gods have influence yet is by giving their priests and worshippers visions and by allowing their priests to use their magic. Though both Orcs and Wizards have found ways to bypass this. In this way, The Dragon Gods are to Ashan, what God is to Atheists and Agnostics in the real world. Something people say, without it demonstrably being of any influence.
As far as the rest goes, I'd need something specific to shine my light upon. Since I've shone so many lights over the years I don't know how, when and where to start and same goes to the end.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted May 29, 2014 07:08 AM |
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The discussion on the lore aspect although has its merits is a direct consequence of the failure of HoMM6, if this had been a good game, being balanced, enjoyable, replayable, diverse (8-9 factions) people wouldn't care so much that the storyline blows in comparison to let's say the HoMM4 campaign storyline which in my personal opinion was the best out there ( Tawny Balfour and Emilia Nighthaven come to mind).
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2014 08:49 AM |
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That's true enough for the casual gamer, but for the lore-nerds it does matter.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2014 10:06 AM |
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Edited by Minion at 10:06, 29 May 2014.
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For me playing the Heroes 3 campaigns again after being grown up seem a bit on the childish side. Yes the storytelling is indeed good but I have grown out of the stereotypical evil vs good shyte, and I embraced the shades of gray that Ashan brought to the world. Heck even necromancers aren't that evil, and I really really like that approach. The bad guys are the ones that are least tolerant of others and try to force everyone to be like themselves. I guess it didn't fit well to a lot of people, that Haven was actually one of the baddies ;P I loved it.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted May 29, 2014 10:25 AM |
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MattII said:
That's true enough for the casual gamer, but for the lore-nerds it does matter.
I, for one, prefer the term Lore-hound.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 29, 2014 10:41 AM |
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Not all players share the same interests with a game. Some like the story, some like just the universe with its creatures and places. Some like the gameplay, mechanics and spells, the tactics, the hero's path, etc.
Take me for example. I am by no means a lore fan. If it's there and it's good, then I like it. If it's not, I don't really frown on it. But, that's looking from my perspective. Imagine Ubi's. They MUST deliver lore! So while they're at it, why not make it interesting and worthwhile for the lore aficionados to enjoy?
Some suggestions of mine:
1. Reveal some story beyond the overused eclipse plot. It's became a natural disaster with no feel of real "human" like actions happening. For example a search for the long forgotten Shantiri civilization, uncovering more knowledge about the dragon gods, elder races or whatnot.
2. Give the dragon gods more significant roles. Like having an actual presence in the events of Ashan. My approach on this would be to give them the ability to appear as avatars and assume roles that fit their personality. Like Malassa could appear as as a being of smoke with lots of eyes, enveloping in her ethereal wings all those who seek secrets in the dark. Sylanna could take various animal forms with unique beautiful features, gifted with prediction for the ones that encounter her briefly in the woods of Irolan. Shalassa could appear as a huge sea serpent, worshiped by her naga children, meditating and seeking balance and peace. So on and so forth.
3. Develop more antagonists with which people can actually relate, rather than the destructive focused demons all the time. I'd personally have some academy figure want to achieve godhood and make a story from there.
4. More down to earth plots or at least side stories would be welcomed. There is too much focus on religion, worship and ideology. People can do much more than that, like exploration, inventions, etc.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2014 12:23 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 12:50, 29 May 2014.
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Like Armageddon's Blade or Heroes IV? I can go along with that. Not that it will ever come to pass, Ubisoft simply doesn't appear to employ the sorts of writers who could actually do that.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 29, 2014 10:49 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 22:51, 29 May 2014.
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Stevie said:
It is way to easily conveyed to the reader. The way I see it you leave no room for exploration. The narrator is omniscient.
Quote:
The narration however is overly generous in explaining everything right away. No mystery no nada.
LizardWarrior said:
I personally don't like this "dragon worship", everyone is 100% certain they exist and it leaves no room for interpretations and hypothesizes.
The way I see it the whole dragon story is Ashan mythology. Just like all religions it tells the story of how the world was created and why it works as it does. Why should we unconditionally believe this creation story Ubisoft tells us?
The fact is that in the present era the dragon gods do not have a physical form, so they may very well be made up to explain things like elemental magic, life, death and demons.
I don't think it is strange that you get such a big part of the lore outside of the game. For the people living in Ashan this story is common knowledge, so it would be strange if you don't know it right...
Besides, you do learn more about the history from the campaigns (at least in 50SoD), such as why the angels hate the faceless so much.
In my opinion Ashan is a pretty nice setting for Heroes, but I agree that Ubisoft should use another plot device than a demon invasion next time.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 30, 2014 11:30 AM |
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Because they provide a timeline, and they tell us that is what actually happened? NWC were masters of mystery, while Ubisoft seems to be like that kid at school who can't keep one single damned secret.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 30, 2014 12:21 PM |
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Some interpretations of the Bible claim that the earth is around 6000 years old and also give a quite detailed timeline. Why should it be different for the major religion of Ashan?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 30, 2014 12:28 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 12:30, 30 May 2014.
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Ubisoft has told us this is how it happened, and they own the bloody franchise, so what they say about it is the truth.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 30, 2014 01:12 PM |
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Or it is what they want us to believe to be the truth, because the people of Ashan do Although I think you are right and the story they provide is just the truth. Still there are some mysteries, the biggest one being the void. The void isn't explained at all. Maybe on the other side of the void lies the old Heroes universe, who knows?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 30, 2014 01:15 PM |
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Yea the void intrigues me also.
And I don't see any traits in Ubi's narration that'd indicate the story isn't true. I thought it could be but I don't see any evidence for it.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 30, 2014 01:24 PM |
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Have you ever read the Bible? It is pretty mysterious, if you don't know how to interpret it and take it literally you won't understand a word. It's full of metaphors and archaic words, plus it hasn't been perfectly translated and many psalms had lost their meaning, for hundreds and years people are debating and interpreting it in different ways. There's no psalm in Bible claiming about the world being 6000 years old:
Quote:
Nothing about the age of the earth. The 6000 year thing only goes back to the 17th century. It was written by an Irish bishop named James Usher. (sometimes spelled Ussher. Spelling wasn't formal in those days). But Usher was reading various, diverse stories written over a period of more than 1000 years by hundreds of authors. And it's clear those scriptures had been edited, recompiled, rearranged, redacted, edited, and censored several times before he got to them.
But let's not turn this into a real religious discussion.
Steyn said:
Or it is what they want us to believe to be the truth, because the people of Ashan do
Nope, knowing Ubi I'm pretty sure they did not think of this.
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