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| Thread: Heroes Universe - Dragon Gods |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 30, 2014 01:42 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 13:57, 30 May 2014.
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LizardWarrior said:
Have you ever read the Bible?
There's no psalm in Bible claiming about the world being 6000 years old:
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Nothing about the age of the earth. The 6000 year thing only goes back to the 17th century. It was written by an Irish bishop named James Usher. (sometimes spelled Ussher. Spelling wasn't formal in those days). But Usher was reading various, diverse stories written over a period of more than 1000 years by hundreds of authors. And it's clear those scriptures had been edited, recompiled, rearranged, redacted, edited, and censored several times before he got to them.
But let's not turn this into a real religious discussion.
No, I have not read the Bible, only bits and pieces, but I know it is quite complex and should defenitely not be taken literally.
I read about Usher. He used the genealogy described in the Bible to make his calculations and used some pretty ridiculous assumptions.
I was only trying to show that it is not strange if people use their religious documentation as/to make a calendar for the age of the world, not start a religious discussion 
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Steyn said:
Or it is what they want us to believe to be the truth, because the people of Ashan do
Nope, knowing Ubi I'm pretty sure they did not think of this.
I am afraid you are right 
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Is there a place for religious disscussion on this forum? 
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 30, 2014 02:11 PM |
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Steyn said:
Is there a place for religious disscussion on this forum?
Here
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 30, 2014 03:40 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 15:41, 30 May 2014.
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Thx LizardWarrior
Back to the dragongods: If the gods are dragons, what makes this the dragons that you can recruit? (black, green, fire)
Are they avatars of their respective dragon? If so, I would say they should be more powerfull. In Heroes VI terms: bosses.
That's why I was disappointed that the Dungeon champion is the black dragon. I think the hydra as champ would have been better, leaving the black dragons as rare but powerfull boss creatures.
And why are there no light dragons? (not that we don't already have enough dragons )
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 30, 2014 03:50 PM |
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Steyn said:
Back to the dragongods: If the gods are dragons, what makes this the dragons that you can recruit? (black, green, fire)
Are they avatars of their respective dragon? If so, I would say they should be more powerfull. In Heroes VI terms: bosses.
That's why I was disappointed that the Dungeon champion is the black dragon. I think the hydra as champ would have been better, leaving the black dragons as rare but powerfull boss creatures.
And why are there no light dragons? (not that we don't already have enough dragons )
Lore shouldn't come above gameplay. Dragons have to be recruitable on towns, a Heroes without Dragons on your army isn't a Heroes
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 30, 2014 03:59 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 16:00, 30 May 2014.
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Storm-Giant said:
Lore shouldn't come above gameplay. Dragons have to be recruitable on towns, a Heroes without Dragons on your army isn't a Heroes
Well, I don't really like them. That they are immune to magic may sound nice, but it also prevents the use of beneficial spells. This makes creeping more annoying and isn't compensated by a nice power boost such as in Heroes IV. An option would have been to make them an alternative champion such as the dragonwraight, with a nice power boost. The way they are now they are an insult for dragonkind 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted May 30, 2014 04:22 PM |
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Steyn said:
Thx LizardWarrior
Back to the dragongods: If the gods are dragons, what makes this the dragons that you can recruit? (black, green, fire)
Are they avatars of their respective dragon? If so, I would say they should be more powerfull. In Heroes VI terms: bosses.
That's why I was disappointed that the Dungeon champion is the black dragon. I think the hydra as champ would have been better, leaving the black dragons as rare but powerfull boss creatures.
And why are there no light dragons? (not that we don't already have enough dragons )
I've written down a nice little rant on that subject Here. Go and read it if you'd like my perspective on this subject.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 30, 2014 04:45 PM |
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War-overlord said:
I've written down a nice little rant on that subject Here. Go and read it if you'd like my perspective on this subject.
Nice rant, I totally agree. May I add another theory to the origin of the lesser dragons? Maybe they are remnants of the physical form of the dragon gods, from when they moved to the spirit world. Although I have to admid that this doesn't explain the spiritual part of the lesser dragons.
Or the lesser dragons were created as messengers between the dragon gods and their people...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted May 30, 2014 04:53 PM |
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Steyn said:
Nice rant, I totally agree. May I add another theory to the origin of the lesser dragons? Maybe they are remnants of the physical form of the dragon gods, from when they moved to the spirit world. Although I have to admid that this doesn't explain the spiritual part of the lesser dragons.
Or the lesser dragons were created as messengers between the dragon gods and their people...
Thanks, on pages 4,5&6 are similar rants of mine on the 9 factions if you want to read them.
As for your ideas, they're nice. But there is nothing to back them up with. I've tried to stick as much as possible to whatever is known and to deduction via (amateur)Etymology.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 01, 2014 09:04 PM |
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So just from a lore perspective, what do you guys think the next iteration should be about? And what role would the dragon gods have in it? Do you think it should be about the events following Heroes V?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 01, 2014 10:48 PM |
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Stevie said:
So just from a lore perspective, what do you guys think the next iteration should be about? And what role would the dragon gods have in it? Do you think it should be about the events following Heroes V?
There is no should. We cannot force Ubi or anyone else to do what we want. The question is rather: What do we want it to be?
As far as the last question goes, Yes. I would like it to be posterior to Heroes 5. I'd like to see either: that they use the coming of the Dark Messiah to pull a Heroes4 and destroy the world and have several races escape to a new one; Or I'd like to see Heroes 7 set roughly 500 years after the coming of the Dark Messiah, so things can be shaken up heavily and have things settle somewhat after.
What role the Dragon Gods I would like to see play: In case of "Pulling-a-Heroes4", I would like to see the Dragon Gods replaced with new Gods. In case of 500 years further, I would like to see the Gods to be actively influence the world and vie amongst themselves for supremacy.
As for what I'd like it to be about, an All-out War. Everyone against Everyone, or 2 or 3 Great Alliances amongst the majority of the factions go to war against each other and the neutrals caught in the middle.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 02, 2014 12:58 AM |
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War-overlord said:
There is no should. We cannot force Ubi or anyone else to do what we want. The question is rather: What do we want it to be?
Em... I think it was quite obvious that that's what I was asking. Maybe poor choice of words.
In regards to your ideas, I don't want to sound rude but I think they're quite cliche and not that intriguing.
I wouldn't like another "blow up everything and conveniently escape to another world" scenario like in Heroes IV. We do not need a change of setting at all, the world is quite vast already so they should make the most of it.
The 500 years post apocalyptic idea, while it would ensure a good amount of mystery, it wouldn't be that good as the main plot. Like really, why would you want a story about the aftermath rather than the catastrophic event itself? Wouldn't that be a lot better? I think it would!
Then, all out war and great alliances. Why so linear? Why so limited? You know, there are a lot more things that a faction can do than just war! Economy, expansion, research magic, discoveries, social issues, struggle with environment, just to name a few. I'm not saying we shouldn't have war, rather I'm saying that we should have MORE than just war!! War is inevitable, sure, but don't make it so inevitable that there is nothing else besides it.
I agree with Dragon Gods assuming a more active role in the events of Ashan. I could see a story with one or two dragon gods dying but not the entire pantheon. And I definitely do not want to see them replaced with other ones as a result. Rather, some other being achieving godhood of their element, ruling with other ideals and philosophies.
I will post my ideas on how I would like the lore to develop in another post.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 02, 2014 11:03 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Lore shouldn't come above gameplay. Dragons have to be recruitable on towns, a Heroes without Dragons on your army isn't a Heroes
A heroes without black dragons maybe, but the rest are neither here nor there.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 02, 2014 11:53 AM |
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@ Stevie:
Oh, I understood what you intended. But such unfortunate choices of words can lead the reader to interprate posts as being huffy or even tantrum-like. Such things would harm the so-far friendly and enjoyable discussion we were having. And I appologize if my correction cam across as overly harsh, but I've seen threads like this one derail into flame-wars too often.
I know the ideas for settings are a tad cliché, but I do not intend to write an all-out script for an entire game, just for my own amusement if there is no guarantee it will be read by others than just similar-minded fan-fic writers.
I will suffice with a few broad bursh-strokes, so don't be expecting any Rembrandts from me in this regards.
As far as the setting of Ashan goes, it's broad, but it also has several clear and unpassable borders and those borders are already chafing. The way to deal with such restrictions are either: Creative Writing, at which the producers have so far not shown exceptional talent in, barring perhaps Marzhin; Or by breaking with the setting "big time". And a great appocalypse is a good way to do so even if it's used often. Going far into the past is also a way to do such things even if that brings with it a great feeling of futility since the outcome of the conflicts is either known or of little consequence in the long run.
As for playing the appocalypse itself, that would be doable perhaps for a M&M game, but less so for a Heroes of M&M game, since that would once again boil down to an "everyone against the Demons"-scenario which a great many of us are growing tired of already.
As for the War-scenario, I think that it is inevitable because war is such an intregal part of the game. Shoehorning in other issues, while downplaying the war/conquest part of the gameplay will detache the story from the gameplay in an undesireable way. I think it better to embrace the inevitability and explore other themes in their relation to War/Conquest or other integral parts of the gameplay.
If one wishes to explore other themes without involving war, it would perhaps be better to do it in a different genre of game inside the M&M franchise. And as I have said in several surveys, I'd love to see a Point-'n-Click in the setting to explore other aspects and/or peacetime.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 02, 2014 03:37 PM |
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WO. I didn't start these threads for my own amusement, or because I have nothing better to do. I did this for the community in an attempt to resuscitate it from what I perceive as being a near-death state of passivity. And what better way than discussing Heroes and contemplating the future of the franchise? I know it's been done before in threads scattered across the forums but I want to make it orderly so we can draw some relevant conclusions and be more united as a community. I understand that what we're doing here is a shot in the dark in regards to whether Ubi will take notice of us, but I'll take that anytime above doing NOTHING! One thing I've learned the hard way is that doing nothing gets you nothing, so even if the chances to be heard are slim, trying is still better than staying idle.
I appreciate you take time to write some posts. I know many of us are have busy lives and family to take care of. So maybe we don't always get the time to read every thread and reply with lengthy posts, I understand that. What I don't understand though is how can you come on a heroes forum and show no interest for the game at all. But you take your time to post what you've dreamed about last night. Has the fanbase really fallen off that heavily?!
Now, what I would like to see happening in Heroes VII:
Shortly after the events of Dark Messiah, the demons attack from withing the Griffin Dutchy. They catch everyone off guard and advance rapidly, overpowering the unprepared humans. Haven inhabitants begin to flee their homeland, being pushed outside the borders by the rushing demons behind, but most of them are killed by the surrounding nations fearing they are waged war against.
Two main groups survive. The ones heading West through Karthal, which embark on a journey into the unknown, maybe ending on a different continent where they have to tame the wilderness and fight other races and creatures. And the ones escaping through Ranaar where they meet their Ylath worshiping relatives of the Free Cities.
Have some duchy royalty die at the hand of demons and neighboring races. Have Shalassa herself or an avatar save some humans trying to escape through the south-east path. Found a very suggestive picture:
Don't let the demons be the only antagonists. I think that some races could use this opportunity to resolve some quarrels with some old enemies. Like some Dungeon clans and some Silver Cities mages, who seek demon power to bring their plans to fruition. Dungeon could war against Elves and Dwarfs while Academy with Necro and Orcs.
Raelag runs away with his loyal remaining clan members and is guided by Malassa on a journey to find out what really happened with Sareth and the demons suddenly appearing in Thallan (possible twist here).
Kha-Beleth makes his appearance on the Irollan front and defeats Sylanna who buys enough time to ensure the escape of the elves from the hands of the demons and dark elves. Infuriated by these actions against a fellow Dragon God, Arkath himself and the dwarfs rush into fighting the demons and repel them for a while from the dwarven border.
The escaping elves travel the Irisus sea to find themselves on the same continent as the humans. Faced with the same problems, they manage to cooperate for a while for survival. But racism, ideology and religion make them part ways soon enough and they begin to compete for supremacy on the new found land.
Yet some of them survived the demon onslaught of Irollan and now try recuperate amidst the ruins of what was once their homeland.
What you accomplish with this kind of plot:
1. You have continuity from the events of Dark Messiah. That's a bit constraining on what you can do with the plot tho, but as you can see, it's manageable.
2. There's plenty of war and a lot of races war with eachother, so there won't be fighting with demons only.
3. The forced migration of the humans and elves makes an excellent occasion for exploring the world, and shifts the focus of the lore from ideology and religion to a more survival one. Gameplay wise, you can have a lot of campaign missions with exploration, claim territory, economy, discovering secrets of natives and forgotten civilizations, etc. So win the game with your Kingdom as a whole, not just by military power.
4. You get a decent amount of mystery. While you can assume what happened, with Sareth and all that, you don't actually know for sure. And some questions arise, as to if he used the skull to liberate the demons, why is he not part of the war? So you'll find out what happens with Raelag and possibly even other characters.
5. Finally, some Dragon Gods take an active role.
I don't know if this is accurate with all the previous lore, or even if it's a good plot. If nothing else maybe just an entertaining read. Thoughts? 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 02, 2014 10:09 PM |
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Quote:
WO. I didn't start these threads for my own amusement, or because I have nothing better to do. I did this for the community in an attempt to resuscitate it from what I perceive as being a near-death state of passivity. And what better way than discussing Heroes and contemplating the future of the franchise? I know it's been done before in threads scattered across the forums but I want to make it orderly so we can draw some relevant conclusions and be more united as a community. I understand that what we're doing here is a shot in the dark in regards to whether Ubi will take notice of us, but I'll take that anytime above doing NOTHING! One thing I've learned the hard way is that doing nothing gets you nothing, so even if the chances to be heard are slim, trying is still better than staying idle.
I know you did not start this for your own amusement and I understand the sentiment of wanting to do something. But I've been part of a great deal of such efforts and content-imagining contests and all it ever got me is a few text-files and time well sunk. I still join such things occasionally to make myself heard on things and because I enjoy doing so. So forgive me if I am in this for my own amusement for a large deal.
In regards to the Image you've found, I do believe that this was the loading screen of the Dark Messiah adaptation for Heroes 5.
As far as your story goes, there are a few hitches.
For one, not all Free Cities lie in the East and none are known to lie east of Ranaar.
More importantly, Free City Humans tend to hate Imperials. Mostly for denying their claims of freedom and the worship of Ylath. The Free Cities have never been able to ally amongst themselves and often skirmish, so I highly doubt that Free City Councils will have much tolerance for their Imperial cousins, even if they are war refugees.
Dungeon fighting an Alliance of Sylvan and Fortress is doable, since Elves and Dwarves don't hate each other on Ashan. Though it is doubtable of the Demon ravaging of Irrolan is enough to spur the Dwarves into action, as it has not done so in the past either.
However, Stronghold and Necropolis do hate each other, just as much as either hates Academy. Orcs think Necro and Academy are two sides of the same coin and hate them because they are the Magi that created and enslaved them. Necro thinks Orcs are uncouth savages fit only to fill the graveyards and think that for artificial life forms they cling to life far too tightly. So Academy, Necropolis and Stronghold will be a triangle war.
And as far as the natives and forgotten civs in the new lands go, forget them being anything but neutrals as long as Erwan's in charge, since, you'd need to cut a faction out to not cross the arbitrary boundary of 9.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted June 04, 2014 09:07 AM |
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Hey War-overlord, you've got a new profile pic. Is that your idea for the Heroes VII angel?
Why does the campaign have to focus on some big cataclysm involving al the factions? In Clash of Heroes this was written in quite nicely, but with Heroes VI it was quite far-fetched. I would prefer Heroes IV-like campaigns, with seperate storylines for the different factions that are now and then a little interconnected (because they take place on the same continent). This is more-or-less what was done with the 50SoD expansion, which I quite liked (except for the bugs)
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 04, 2014 10:16 AM |
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Steyn said:
Hey War-overlord, you've got a new profile pic. Is that your idea for the Heroes VII angel?
No, this is my profile-pic from a few years ago. I got kinda tired of my pic of this year. This pic has nothing to do with M&M, it's from the Golden Sun series.
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Why does the campaign have to focus on some big cataclysm involving al the factions? In Clash of Heroes this was written in quite nicely, but with Heroes VI it was quite far-fetched. I would prefer Heroes IV-like campaigns, with seperate storylines for the different factions that are now and then a little interconnected (because they take place on the same continent). This is more-or-less what was done with the 50SoD expansion, which I quite liked (except for the bugs)
The campaign does not need to focus on a cataclysm at all. However it is a very effectives tool for rewriting the rules from a lore perspective. Which is why I am in favor of it, because many of the current rules are very chafing and/or limiting.
As far as a Heroes4 campaign goes, I am in favor of that as well. Less interconnection and more self contained stories can, perhaps, improve story-telling. But mostly I am in favor of it for the setting, i.e. the settling of a new world by familiar people, because the old one got destroyed.
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Stevie
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 04, 2014 10:57 AM |
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There's a prophecy about demons being released by the dark messiah. How can you not have a cataclysm following that?
Then, separate storylines are the core of faction campaigns, so it's not like you won't have that, because that's the only thing you can have.
I understand the feeling of wanting less interconnection, and more variety in plot. But you can't really have that with such a big event that affects everyone. What I tried to do instead is have factions assume different gameplay paths. Like survival for Haven and Sylvan, secret quests with Raelag of Dungeon, war between Academy and other factions... I dunno, I'm not paid by Ubi to come up with ideas. I did what I could with the current frame of things.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 04, 2014 11:18 AM |
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Stevie said:
There's a prophecy about demons being released by the dark messiah. How can you not have a cataclysm following that?
Though I am not certain of this, there is, as of yet, no cannonical ending to Dark Messiah.
In the game, there is the option of resealing Sheogh and trapping the Demons again for a set number of years or eternity and keeping the status-quo intact.
So, in case the Demons were released, I agree with Stevie that, barring unforseen consequences of which I can think a few, the events would be catastrophic. However, as far as I know, we do not know that is what happened.
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Stevie
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 04, 2014 11:42 AM |
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I already took that into consideration
Stevie said:
Raelag runs away with his loyal remaining clan members and is guided by Malassa on a journey to find out what really happened with Sareth and the demons suddenly appearing in Thallan (possible twist here).
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4. You get a decent amount of mystery. While you can assume what happened, with Sareth and all that, you don't actually know for sure. And some questions arise, as to if he used the skull to liberate the demons, why is he not part of the war? So you'll find out what happens with Raelag and possibly even other characters.
My spin on this would be: Sareth wanted to keep the demons imprisoned but some shady character attacked him and took the Skull of Shadows. He then made an agreement with Kha-Beleth to release him from his prison provided that he would help him with his schemes. Shortly after, this character manages to infiltrate the Holy Griffin Empire where he uses the artifact to create a huge portal which demons could use to travel freely from Sheogh to Ashan. Intrigued by this man's ambitions, Kha-Beleth keeps his promise and lets him operate in the shadows as he wishes.
So basically the demon invasion is part of what I would like to be a even more sinister plot. What you say?
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