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| Thread: Do Developers Make Creature Gender Decisions or Publishers? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted July 11, 2014 04:00 PM |
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Gnomes2169 said:
however, this debate was not about babies (which, by the way, refer to Age of Wonders 3 to see an example of baby creatures in battle... those serpent babies and draconian hatchlings are nasty little buggers). This debate is about fully grown adults and fully grown adults.
Don't forget the tricycle babies from AoE 
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted July 11, 2014 04:03 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 16:06, 11 Jul 2014.
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Or maybe it's less out of fear of feminists and more about them actually caring a bit about diversity in gaming.
Gaming could kinda benefit from it
Poor men not being represented enough in gaming. We need more stories about men! WE'RE NOT BEING HEARD!
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted July 11, 2014 04:06 PM |
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Gnomes2169 said:
The glories and Spring Sisters were really rather borked, and there was no reason to give them a gender beyond giving them a gender... personally, I think the two would have worked better as 1) A blob of light that is in a vaguely-humanoid shape, glowing so bright that the actual body features cannot be seen
Don't get serious arguing with Jeremiah, that's pointless, you'd just waste your time getting trolled.
Now, as for glories, I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you. I believe they were inspired by the greek Nike, or roman Victoria, since haven is based off romans more than greeks. Those were the goddesses of victory for their respective cultures. Their representation and indeed function is similar to what the glories are. Here, a couple of examples to show you. The glories were based off of that. As I understand it, they're basically light elementals, except here they are given by the haven believers more meaning? They're a little strange. It's amusing however, how the light elementals that represent haven's glory are not as powerful as those that don't represent them.
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 11, 2014 04:27 PM |
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Adrius said:
Or maybe it's less out of fear of feminists and more about them actually caring a bit about diversity in gaming.
Gaming could kinda benefit from it
Poor men not being represented enough in gaming. We need more stories about men! WE'RE NOT BEING HEARD!
now that's just being sexist. If you're allowed to talk like that, then I see no reason why I'm not.
Anyway, you should say that to feminists. It's them who are complaining about the lack of female representation in games (instead of focusing real issues that affects women).
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 11, 2014 04:31 PM |
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Simpelicity said:
Gnomes2169 said:
The glories and Spring Sisters were really rather borked, and there was no reason to give them a gender beyond giving them a gender... personally, I think the two would have worked better as 1) A blob of light that is in a vaguely-humanoid shape, glowing so bright that the actual body features cannot be seen
Don't get serious arguing with Jeremiah, that's pointless, you'd just waste your time getting trolled.
Now, as for glories, I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you. I believe they were inspired by the greek Nike, or roman Victoria, since haven is based off romans more than greeks. Those were the goddesses of victory for their respective cultures. Their representation and indeed function is similar to what the glories are. Here, a couple of examples to show you. The glories were based off of that. As I understand it, they're basically light elementals, except here they are given by the haven believers more meaning? They're a little strange. It's amusing however, how the light elementals that represent haven's glory are not as powerful as those that don't represent them.
Funny, that is the exact same words I hear feminists everytime I criticize them (even if I'm not trolling). Which leads me to wonder if you are one.
Anyway, just to add, Rome was pretty much a male-dominated society. I think Glories should be male because Romans celebrate thank yous to Mars, the god of War when they win.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted July 11, 2014 04:37 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 16:37, 11 Jul 2014.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted July 11, 2014 04:45 PM |
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Steyn said:
In ancient Roman religion, Victoria was the personified goddess of victory.
She was normally worshiped by triumphant generals returning from war.
Yes, isn't that what I said? And Victoria was based off Nike.
I said glories were based off them, they're not exactly like them. They couldn't be, since they're given form in the physical world. That's not the case with any gods, you know. Victoria, and Nike before her, were just statues in temples. I'm sure they would've liked to take their symbols of victory with them if they could, like haven is doing.
And Jeremiah :
Me? no. I'll say though, all those people saying that? They probably have as hard of a time as me thinking someone can seriously believe in what you're saying. I'm sorry if you're not a troll, but I have all the trouble in the world taking your points seriously. You're giving me a good laugh though, if that's worth anything to you.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 11, 2014 05:09 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 17:10, 11 Jul 2014.
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JeremiahEmo said:
Now I'm not saying it's the only possibility, I'm saying there is a possibility that Ubi is avoiding feminist criticism for Heroes 6.
What do you think? What are your opinions on this?
No. It's just that Ubi decided to aim the game at mainstream gamers, the majority of which you might consider to fall in the category of pimple-faced geeks. Female units ingame appeal more to them than muscular males -> bigger sales for Ubisoft.
End of story.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted July 11, 2014 05:36 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 17:40, 11 Jul 2014.
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I am a feminist.
Long rant incoming, but if I'm gonna be even 10% successful in explaining why you're wrong I need room. I apologize in advance if I come across as condescending what's with all the explaining how I think.
I'm gonna use white vs black to make points of power and representation in this post, cuz rascism is a bit more understood than sexism and it gets the point across in a more clear way in my experience. I realize there are more racialized groups that are discriminated against, but for simplicity's sake.
Calling out male dominance is not being sexist, we as males are not threatened in the slightest, we are not a vulnerable group, we are an oppresive group. It is the difference of kicking on someone who's down and someone who's towering over you. You could use Chris Rock making jokes about dem white folk as an example if you like, it ain't hurting us, but the reverse can definitely hurt cuz black people are already being structurally discriminated upon.
Ok, so new word: structurally. If we're gonna discuss feminism, you need to raise your eyes a bit and look beyond individuals... see the patterns of society, that is a structure. The White Heterosexual Male is the norm of society, the closer you get to being that the more benefits you get. This much should be obvious just by living in reality. That also means that the more you deviate from being a white heterosexual male, the more oppressed you become.
Try being a black, transgender, homosexual man, oh dear you're gonna have a tough ****ing time in this world.
A smaller but nonetheless notable example of the norm of MAN is gamers going absolutely ape**** when their white-grizzly-masculine-dude standard main character is being questioned. (ASSASSINS WITH BOOBS? WHY YOU FEMINAZI SCUM THAT'S WORSE THAN HITLER). It's pretty hilarious just how worked up we can get over not being represented on abso****inglutely every single game cover... we're pretty much spoiled brats haha.
I barely deviate at all, I've never been structurally discriminated against in my life. All I get is benefits, even as a feminist my voice is valued more, I have a natural place in every room, I can go to any club I want without fear of being stopped by guards... when people look at me, they automatically assume that I'm heterosexual, and they're right, I'm never misunderstood. Things like that. I realize, at least partially, that privilege.
Now, it's super-ironic that you call females not being represented a non-issue while you yourself is fighting with teeth and claw to get enough penis into the HoMM series, but ok.
Representation has much more weight than you think, think about it if TV only had white people for instance... wouldn't that be an issue? Or, when TV actually had black people on it, they would just be forced into roles that fit the idea of what those people act like? That would also be a big problem. Let's say a woman can only be in a game if she fits what guys perceive as attrative, maybe she can even shut up, maybe she can just be a prize for us to collect at the end, like an object. How would that influence how young people think of women, how women think of themselves? With that perspective, there is perhaps an incredible value in feeling represented in a positive way in media, it SHAPES society.
I'm gonna argue that DIVERSITY IS GOOD for video games, and for the world. By including characters of different origins, gender and orientations, we can get more varied stories. We can enjoy different perspectives, we can learn by having fun, we can have a new experience. I love new experiences!
Furthermore, as representation influences the way we think and perceive others, having a more diverse media with varying colours, ethnicities, genders and orientations will also make the world a more accepting place to live in for all of us.
Considering all that, maybe it's not a non-issue. Maybe representation, and the way it affects society, even influences what you would call a "real issue" for women.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted July 11, 2014 09:05 PM |
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JeremiahEmo said:
Simpelicity said:
Gnomes2169 said:
The glories and Spring Sisters were really rather borked, and there was no reason to give them a gender beyond giving them a gender... personally, I think the two would have worked better as 1) A blob of light that is in a vaguely-humanoid shape, glowing so bright that the actual body features cannot be seen
Don't get serious arguing with Jeremiah, that's pointless, you'd just waste your time getting trolled.
Now, as for glories, I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you. I believe they were inspired by the greek Nike, or roman Victoria, since haven is based off romans more than greeks. Those were the goddesses of victory for their respective cultures. Their representation and indeed function is similar to what the glories are. Here, a couple of examples to show you. The glories were based off of that. As I understand it, they're basically light elementals, except here they are given by the haven believers more meaning? They're a little strange. It's amusing however, how the light elementals that represent haven's glory are not as powerful as those that don't represent them.
Funny, that is the exact same words I hear feminists everytime I criticize them (even if I'm not trolling). Which leads me to wonder if you are one.
Anyway, just to add, Rome was pretty much a male-dominated society. I think Glories should be male because Romans celebrate thank yous to Mars, the god of War when they win.
Simpelicity said:
Steyn said:
In ancient Roman religion, Victoria was the personified goddess of victory.
She was normally worshiped by triumphant generals returning from war.
Yes, isn't that what I said? And Victoria was based off Nike.
I said glories were based off them, they're not exactly like them. They couldn't be, since they're given form in the physical world. That's not the case with any gods, you know. Victoria, and Nike before her, were just statues in temples. I'm sure they would've liked to take their symbols of victory with them if they could, like haven is doing.
And Jeremiah :
Me? no. I'll say though, all those people saying that? They probably have as hard of a time as me thinking someone can seriously believe in what you're saying. I'm sorry if you're not a troll, but I have all the trouble in the world taking your points seriously. You're giving me a good laugh though, if that's worth anything to you.
And here I was defending your point 
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted July 11, 2014 10:30 PM |
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Yeah sorry I blanked out on that one, I overlooked the part where he was trying to decide what gods people prefered a couple thousand years ago based on their imagined masculinity levels.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 12:02 AM |
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JeremiahEmo said:
Geesh, this is not supposed to be representation. It's supposed to be about a quality game.
I suggest you keep your expectations from Ubisuck to a minimum. Or else prepare to be disappointed time and time again.
As for the pair of digital tits : why the big deal? It's not like it's a female crew only, like other games or animes. Skull girls, half of today's animes, etc... man, those are going to drive you nuts!
May I redirect you to the Skullgirls forums :
http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php
The claymore forums :
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/750-Claymore
etc etc etc... Prepare to be shocked by more digital tits than your mind can handle!
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 03:06 AM |
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^ the difference is that in anime, you can choose to ignore those shows and watch a more believable show such as Naruto and Bleach.
And might I say, Kishimoto (Naruto's writer) is the best. Aside from mid to end of the war against Madara and Obito, Naruto has always been top-notch in quality in every aspect.
If you can give me a fantasy game, and when I say fantasy, I mean dwarves and elves and wizards, etc that is believable. You know my definition of believable. That is, fairly recent and has graphics on par or close to Heroes 5, game quality that is on par with Heroes 3 or Heroes 5 then I would gladly play that game. Well, Heroes 5 fits my criteria, except for a few campaigns in HoF and ToTe but nonetheless, it's still in tip top shape. And it also must be RTS and has a lot of races to choose from like HoMM.
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Anyway Adrius, you know, there's a reason why racism is much more understood than sexism. Surely, you can't compare what Blacks in America has gone through under the wrath of slavery compared to women. Homos and Trans, I understand too. They've had a tough time, but women? No. Never did. In fact, they're the most privileged group. What feminists said were lies or over exaggeration. I'd love to elaborate on this but I doubt you'll even get it because of information overload. Tell me if you want me to elaborate.
Secondly, I never get why feminists' fuss about white, heterosexual males. Oppressive group? Really? What white men oppressed were based on race but never about gender. Since when did men oppressed women as a gender? The sinking of Titanic wherein they clearly valued women's lives over their own? "Save the WOMEN and children!!!" The White Knighting wherein if a man sees a woman in trouble, he'll risk his life for her even if she's a complete stranger? Man, you've been brainwashed by feminism. You really should open your eyes.
Feminists should be thanking white men for building society that makes it safe enough for them from animals, the elements and invading countries to pursue women's rights.
So, with my second post, clearly, you now understand that I've proven your "kicking them when they're down" argument wrong. Well, it's actually a correct logic but to apply it to men and women? No.
Women are in fact the most privileged group. If a woman can't fix her car or needs help lifting her stuffs, there are always some white knights hanging around. Men don't get the same kind of treatment. If a woman is in trouble, her life is much more valued. Hey, have you seen that video wherein a cop not on duty just passes by a man getting abused by his girlfriend? That cop was interviewed later on and he said he would have jumped to the rescue if it was a man abusing a woman.
Lastly, men has issues. One that is far more serious than women. Well, in the West at least, I don't know about other countries. Men's Rights (I'm not one by the way) focuses on court cases favoring women, men being wrongly imprisoned or getting unfair treatment because of sexism, etc while feminists focus about something childish like not being represented in games. So saying that women face more sexism than men is just pure delusion.
And even more lastly, representation, yes I get it. Problem is feminists has always inserted themselves in every game even though there are enough representing them. You don't see us men getting riled up when girly games like My Little Pony and idk, maybe a Hannah Montana game not having enough men. If we don't like the game, we ignore it. Problem is that we don't have a male thing game to go to anymore because feminists have invaded every game that is supposed to be a guy thing. "Oh man, Assassin's Creed doesn't have enough female!! Attack!! That game should have females even though we don't play that game very much!! We must shove our assess of every game we can get our hands on!!!"
Now, just to make things clear, I don't hate women. I love women, I have female friends. What I hate is feminism (and by the way all of my female friends hate feminism).
Elvin's probably gonna come and do what a good moderator is supposed to do. Hehe, just kidding Elvin.  But hey, you talked about feminism, a topic that I am very knowledgable about. Sorry Elvin. I'm gonna have some fun. Adrius, you must read this before Elvin arrives.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 04:16 AM |
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those are some very good points, j-mo. the only one that i CAN refute, is that men HAVE treated women like **** for centuries(insofar as rights and whatnot). now, it's the women's turn, i guess. but if you ask me, they're ****ing it up. due to the points you mentioned, and other legal issues that you didn't address. just like with black, latino, and every other "rights" issue, people are tripping over themselves, bending over backward, to satisfy some pretty stupid demands(if they're demanded at all). i AM all for equality, though. just, RATIONAL equality. little nit-picky things piss me off.
the only other thing that pisses me off, and which probably has nothing to do with feminism, is that "the man show" was canceled, and that there isn't any "man" channel, but there are a multitude of female channels and shows geared strictly towards females. i wouldn't have a problem if women came out with "the woman show", where men in skimpy clothes bounced on trampolines. so, you know, bring "the man show" back. that's all i'm sayin, man. 
god, i miss "girls on trampolines". that used to be the best part of the show... 
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 05:08 AM |
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fred79 said:
men HAVE treated women like **** for centuries(insofar as rights and whatnot).
hmm. yeah, I agree. But it's not as bad as you think.
I don't know what your definition of **** is but having fewer rights while being the responsibility of a man is definitely not **** to me. Men had the greater responsibility and harsher treatment throughout history.
Did you know that .. hmm.. I think it was Teddy Roosevelt? That imposed a law against wife-beating. But if women beat up their husbands, he was to be dragged by a horse carriage, naked, humiliating him in the process. So yes, men having the upper hand on women throughout history is a complete feminist lie. I'd love to give you some citations about the latter but I can't find the article anymore. But these should suffice though:
http://unknownmisandry.blogspot.com/2013/03/president-teddy-roosevelt-pushes-for.html
http://unknownmisandry.blogspot.com/search/label/Badger%20Game
I have a second example. Everyone knows about the Women's Suffrage Movement back in the early 1900 (or late 1800).
Yes, women were not allowed to vote back then but so were middle-class men. It was only when men were conscripted that they were allowed to vote. Therefore, men paid their rights to vote with their lives. Women only got it because they protested a year later.
Now, I'm all for both sexes having the rights to vote but to say that women had have fewer rights especially in the terms of voting is a complete myth. Well, they've had technically but it's not as bad as you think it is.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 06:39 AM |
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JeremiahEmo said:
men paid their rights to vote with their lives. Women only got it because they protested a year later.
Huh? How did men pay for their right to vote with their lives? 
And if you really think that men didn't have the upper hand over women for most of history, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It's the same level of ignorance as that of a Holocaust denier.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted July 12, 2014 06:46 AM |
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Aaaand this is not the OSM. Cool your jets guys.
Did Ubi include so many female units to get some heat off of them about basically every protagonist being a male? Most likely. However, does it matter? Probably not. The game was terrible mechanically, but a bit fun for a while, so I can forgive them their attempt to get a few PR points. 
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 07:15 AM |
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mvassilev said:
JeremiahEmo said:
men paid their rights to vote with their lives. Women only got it because they protested a year later.
Huh? How did men pay for their right to vote with their lives?
And if you really think that men didn't have the upper hand over women for most of history, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It's the same level of ignorance as that of a Holocaust denier.
you obviously didn't read the rest of my post.
Conscription??
And how did men have the upper hand over women exactly? Please, educate me about this matter.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 07:38 AM |
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What does conscription have to do with voting?Quote:
And how did men have the upper hand over women exactly? Please, educate me about this matter.
Women used to not be able to own property, were under the authority of their fathers and husbands, were taught to be quiet and submissive (see the Bible), steered away from certain careers ("That's a man's job!"), etc. Some of this still goes on today, though thankfully much less, at least in first-world countries.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 02:16 PM |
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mvassilev said:
What does conscription have to do with voting?Quote:
And how did men have the upper hand over women exactly? Please, educate me about this matter.
Women used to not be able to own property, were under the authority of their fathers and husbands, were taught to be quiet and submissive (see the Bible), steered away from certain careers ("That's a man's job!"), etc. Some of this still goes on today, though thankfully much less, at least in first-world countries.
Quote:
Originally, the U.S. Constitution did not define which citizens could vote, and was simply built around a concept of rights of "person"—with voting not explicitly included in those rights. When founded, most U.S. states allowed only Caucasian males—who either owned property (i.e., at least 50 acres of land), or, had taxable incomes—to vote.[citation needed] Women could vote in New Jersey (provided they could meet the property requirement) and in some local jurisdictions, in other northern states. Non-white Americans could also vote in these jurisdictions, provided they could meet the property requirement. Freed slaves could vote in four states. Initially, unpropertied men and women—white citizens, slaves, and ex-slaves, alike—were largely prohibited from voting; however, by the time of the U.S. Civil War, most white men had been allowed to vote regardless of property ownership.
Quote:
During the Civil War, the U.S. Congress passes a conscription act that produces the first wartime draft of U.S. citizens in American history. The act called for registration of all males between the ages of 20 and 45, including aliens with the intention of becoming citizens, by April 1. Exemptions from the draft could be bought for $300 or by finding a substitute draftee.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_..._United_States
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-h...nscription-act
There you go. Men were forced to fight even though they didn't have a say on who should run their government. And so the government gave them the rights to vote. Yes, they earned that with their lives. Women got their rights to vote without their fair share of shedding blood.
mvassilev said:
"Women were not allowed to own property
Wikipedia just proved you wrong.
mvassilev said:
were under the authority of their fathers or husbands
Fair enough but this wasn't as bad as you think it is. The father or husband were also responsible for the welfare of his daughter/wife.
mvassilev said:
were taught to be quiet and submissive
uhmm.. ok, I'll give you this one. I don't consider it a bad thing since I'd rather live an easy-going lifestyle but that's just me. Men were taught to be firm and aggressive and I probably can't handle the pressure.
But that's just me. If you consider that a bad thing, then I'll give you this one.
mvassilev said:
steered away from certain careers
correct me if I'm wrong but I guess you mean society is putting women down for a job they want because they're women?
If so, then it's not exclusively a woman thing. For instance, Caste System. A system wherein if you were born say... the son of a merchant then you should be a merchant. Or if you were born the son of a farmer, you should be a farmer. So, you really can't pursue what you love doing.
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