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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2014 11:36 PM |
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Of course replacing democracy with a dictatorship isn't going to solve anything, the problem is government. It is government that needs to be abolished, for the very purpose of government is for people to be able to initiate force on others and call it legitimate.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted July 06, 2014 11:39 PM |
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@Fred
Yes, well such is our world. Human beings have needs, and when that need is left unsatisfied even the most complacent or ignorant members of our society will be forced by their own nature to have that need sated. One such need is leadership. I don't think that there's such a thing as 'bad' leadership, a bad leader isn't a leader in my mind, nor is one who is truly an actor in guise of a leader.a I mean even here at HC things may seem calm and cool, but many times the slightest thing caused a massive rift, and it wasn't the issue at hand that necessarily caused it. It was some grievance with the established principles of this site that manifested in that way.
On men on the top of our society, wouldn't say they're evil for I have not measured their quality, are doing everything in their power to maintain the status quo, but the more they do, the quicker they bring about their end. It's like building a tower without strengthening the base, you grow ever taller, your majesty will outshine all others, and then ever so suddenly you collapse into rubble and nothingness.
Now, what we must ponder is not to how to bring about this end, for it is natural, but what to replace it with once it's gone.
As for people screwing each other over, that too is but a natural outcome of my first point. If you lack a proper leader then the people are disunited, the people will look out for themselves, and the people hate it as you do. Disunity and greed are merely the side-effects of a poor national leadership, but it is not desired nor healthy, and the more people are starved and forced to live as they do not want the more the inner resentment will grow till it finally erupts. Though, that's the breaking point, and it need not get that far.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 07, 2014 02:29 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 02:32, 07 Jul 2014.
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it always surprises me to read that people don't think a breaking point has already been reached, in relations between the common populaces and their governments. really, the more i read, the more i am confounded that action has not been taken decades ago, to prevent further degradation in what makes that particular country thrive. i understand that leadership is a complex position, with complex duties, made even more complicated by the differences between the masses and what they stand for; however, i don't think that should EVER be an excuse to not do what's right. leaders are supposed to LEAD by a mass-beneficial example, not pander to the desires of whoever has the most cash.
what gets me, is that humanity has had centuries to learn how to get along with one another; and yet, it is still stuck in the same petty little squabbles. still fighting one another, instead of learning from, and growing from one another, together.
politics, in my opinion, is just another idea that tries to further seperate people, instead of bringing them together.
and, who have we seen that profits off of all of the squabbling? what kind of people ALWAYS profit off of others, while giving virtually nothing back? who takes all of this fighting TO THE BANK? people who are in charge of others.
i understand, that leadership is needed, in order to streamline protection for the masses, from other countries. the question i ask is, WHY do we need protection from one another? WHY can human beings not see past their differences, and get along? UNITY is an important purpose, much moreso than profit. much moreso than greed.
i'm kind of meandering at this point, so i'll leave off with this:
george carlin said it best, when he said that the game is rigged.
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his whole quote(which i think is a very important message to get across, especially in a thread about politics):
"Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice . . . you don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying . . . lobbying, to get what they want . . . Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want . . . they don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that . . . that doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. That’s right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting ****ed by a system that threw them overboard 30 ****in' years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers . . . Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly ****tier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your ****in' retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it . . . they’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this ****in' place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in The big club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Good honest hard-working people . . . white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means . . . continue to elect these rich ****suckers who don’t give a **** about you. They don’t give a **** about you . . . they don’t give a **** about you. They don’t care about you at all . . . at all . . . at all, and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that’s being jammed up their ***holes everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream cause you have to be asleep to believe it . . .”
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feel free to remove the word "american", and substitute your own country, because this speech applies to the whole world.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted July 07, 2014 03:16 AM |
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A Leader as the name suggests is someone who leads, the one who outlines policy not by words, but with acts, leading from the saddle as it were. When a politician has to convince or persuade you (attempt more like it) of his suitability then you can be sure that this ain't the right person. A leader leads, and the people follow. Not because of law, or because the constitution says so, nor because they tell you that this million people desired that over the over, but simple because that's how things work. The current system is aimed at stability, ensuring the survival of a nation and the status quo, which takes precedent nowadays. Hence, good leaders are undesirable, because they bring chaotic change, and may use their symbolic position to try and usurp the real rulers (Japan for example, emperors merely symbols for over 700 years overthrow the real ruler)and a myriad of other problems. Such a thing is not an issue within modern society due to a safety net system where "leaders" are expendable, that also means that modern leadership is sub-standard, that is, if it's not an illusion all-together.
Quote:
breaking point has already been reached
As I've said, it's not the intuitive ones that need to reach a breaking point, but the complacent ones who laugh at political jokes and have heard all the crap a million times, but still they're heart wouldn't consider breaking norms, these are the ones that need to reach it. All it takes is an utterly minor change in perspective that cannot be forced. I mean, look at the first Indian rebellion, the British were taking more and more of their lands trampling the religious customs and freedoms for decades, and worst yet it was Indians doing most of the enforcing and the fighting. (as Sepoys for the East India Company) Yet an ever small thing, (compared to what was already being done) as the material used to make the cartridges flared up this deep resentment in every heart gave way to it all.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted July 07, 2014 05:08 AM |
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fred79 said:
although, the "wolf pac" is a pretty good idea. it won't take off, though, without supporters. i think it would take a drastic, violent change to properly emplace it into politics. and even then, it would be fought tooth and nail. it would be a constant struggle. greed is a very grave issue.
I would say that they already have taken off. California and Vermont have already been completed and a few others I think are in progress. And once you got your foot in the door, it is much easier to actually enter the room. They also claim to have support from like 96% of the people but they need a lot more renown to get more punching power and mainstream media is unlikely to support their message.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 07, 2014 05:37 AM |
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@ tsar: the complacent masses have their distractions, and i feel they greatly outnumber the intuitive few. i really don't have much hope for change, it's been far too long; the parasites have dug far too deep. the issue now is akin to elephantitis; something needs to be amputated. just what, is anybody's guess, and will be prone to subjectivity. 
@ gunfred: i don't think it'll get far. even if it does make it, loopholes will be found. corruption and greed will continue. i liken it to what happened during prohibition: you take away people's rights to drink poison, and they'll find some other way to get it, laws be damned. just like illegal drugs(and even prescription drugs, now). people will abuse what they can, while it is readily available. resources, institutions, each other, on and on and on.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted July 12, 2014 12:41 AM |
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Government isn't really the problem, people are. We just need to abolish people.
Of course, that isn't serious.
There are plenty of things that can be done within the existing system to fix a lot of problems. Florida is going to have to redraw their congressional districts now because a court ruled they were drawn to benefit the Republicans. It isn't just Florida that has been doing that. Republicans won a lot of seats at the state level which allowed them to draw the district to benefit their party. They are playing a long game and it is working. That is why the House is dominated by Republicans, many of whom extreme with little chance of losing reelection.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 12, 2014 02:01 AM |
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Politicians do this everywhere. This is why US Congress seems to more and more be dominated by extreme left and right wingers, because such a large number of districts are drawn so as to minimize the need to win a competitive general electron and thus represent a broad base of constituents.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted July 12, 2014 02:03 AM |
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Personally I think that Congress is being dominated by more extreme representatives (house) because of gerrymandering. Surely the causal link is quite obvious.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted July 12, 2014 06:11 AM |
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I was describing gerrymandering.
The Right is far more extreme than the Left in the US and the gerrymandered districts for the House give them a voice. Another alarming trend is that the youngest members getting elected tend to be "Tea Party" candidates in the safe Republican districts. With 90+% of incumbents winning reelection each election cycle, this makes for a grim looking next twenty years or so.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 10:39 AM |
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What's wrong with the Tea Party candidates?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 10:46 AM |
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They're usually anti-immigrant and socially conservative.
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Eccentric Opinion
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted July 12, 2014 10:52 AM |
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xerox said:
What's wrong with the Tea Party candidates?
As a homosexual, why don't you travel there and find out?
    
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 11:56 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 11:57, 12 Jul 2014.
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Why? Most of them aren't opposed to homosexuality?
At most, they want the states to decide on civil rights like samesex marriage and abortion. I'm fine with that. That's usually how far their terrible social conservatism go. I don't agree with those that oppose immigration, but there are more libertarian members in the Tea Party too.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 12:28 PM |
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Most of them are opposed to homosexuality, though they're more moderate about it because ardent opposition to it is no longer politically viable (though there are some holdouts). "Leaving it to the states" isn't something they do out of principle, it's what they support to ensure that there are at least a few places in the US where same-sex marriage isn't recognized, because if it were decided by a national vote, recognition of same-sex marriage would win. But same-sex marriage isn't their only problem. They're pro-life, too, and tend to be anti-feminist in general.
As for immigration, that's a blind spot even for more libertarian Tea Partiers. Supporting liberalization of immigration laws is severely unpopular in the Republican Party.
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Eccentric Opinion
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 12, 2014 01:05 PM |
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I agree with Fred, the political world is a mess. Carlin could have been speaking about "almost" anywhere now.
People talk about the U.S., China, Russia...whatever but it's all the same end result no matter what the supposed type of government. It's the same very ol' story; wealth and power in the hands of the few, while the masses just scramble to survive.
The key to the future is to get all "Treasure" out of the election process; taxpayers choose and pay for it and afterwards, any cash that's enters is a serious crime and with transparent long mandatory sentences.
My Dad once said the only system that could work is the benevolent dictator.
I disagreed. It's highly unlikely that a truly good leader (the kind all reasonable folks could accept) could ever fit into the modern machinery of politics. Get the money out of the system and something could happen then but nothing until then.
The early American government served they didn't get handed fat checks...look at what we have now...book signings. It's disgraceful.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 01:36 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 13:37, 12 Jul 2014.
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mvassilev said:
Most of them are opposed to homosexuality, though they're more moderate about it because ardent opposition to it is no longer politically viable (though there are some holdouts). "Leaving it to the states" isn't something they do out of principle, it's what they support to ensure that there are at least a few places in the US where same-sex marriage isn't recognized, because if it were decided by a national vote, recognition of same-sex marriage would win. But same-sex marriage isn't their only problem. They're pro-life, too, and tend to be anti-feminist in general.
As for immigration, that's a blind spot even for more libertarian Tea Partiers. Supporting liberalization of immigration laws is severely unpopular in the Republican Party.
But are they likely to get support for these social conservative proposals? Probably not, but they might influence Republican candidates to cut down on government and end things like corporate welfare and mass surveillance.
I didn't know that the oppositon towards immigration was THAT large among Republicans. I think I could probably vote for a Democrat just for more open borders immigration.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 12, 2014 03:54 PM |
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mvassilev said:
They're usually anti-immigrant
Well that's certainly how the left wing talking heads frame it. Well done!
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 09:13 PM |
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It also happens to be true, Corribus. They're the ones who want to build a wall on the Mexican border, not give amnesty to illegal immigrants, not increase legal immigration, etc. That said, the left isn't as pro-immigration as it should be, but it's better than the right, at least.Quote:
But are they likely to get support for these social conservative proposals?
At the federal level, Republicans are out of power, so it's hard to say what the Tea Partiers would do if their party were in power. At the state levels, though, you get people like the guy I linked to, and Republicans of that type are making access to abortion more difficult, and so on.
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Eccentric Opinion
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 12, 2014 10:10 PM |
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I know Republicans support that Supreme Court ruling that employers wouldn't be forced to hand out like abortion pills to heir employees. Democrats complain that's restricting access to abortion, but I think it's fair that employers are not forced to give stuff away to their employees.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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