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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 08, 2016 11:12 PM |
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 08, 2016 11:17 PM |
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I never bashed democracy but its derives, like thinking that all opinions are worth each other, like thinking all people are equal which is obviously wrong as every person is the result of a different cultural environment, like thinking that we should be free to do anything that pleases us, as long as no one else gets hurt. But then we decide if he has the right to claim he was hurt. And so on. Not the right thread to develop this.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2016 11:17 PM |
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Ebon... I admit one of my arguments did dabble a little bit in possible futures, or pasts, but yours are going pretty deep at it. The differences can be found in the context of each, which helps find each people's intentions... Guessing people's intentions is a good way to find if they're going to do trouble later on or not.
Whites had the intentions of getting slaves, not save them with technology or clothless self inflicted genocide ( lol )
These blacks that did shoot some cops yesterday wants to bring a problem to the table of discussion, a problem that isn't taken seriously otherwise. It's hardly the same thing. Your three examples have a certain irony related to some of the stuff I said, but hardly any real substance. They're just confusing examples. Seems to me that once again, you're taking things out of context.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 11:18 PM |
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Minion said:
Why Black Lives Matter Is Important
I fully accept that black lives did not matter in the past and that history is what it is and cannot be changed and so does not matter one bit.
I focus on what is now and do not go around worrying about the past. Thus, all lives matter.
So, I take it there's nothing more to discuss here?
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 08, 2016 11:21 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
[
I fully accept that black lives did not matter in the past and that history is what it is and cannot be changed and so does not matter one bit.
I focus on what is now and do not go around worrying about the past. Thus, all lives matter.
So, I take it there's nothing more to discuss here?
The video is 12 minutes, if you reply after 5 minutes you have not bothered to even hear my point of view. So why reply?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 08, 2016 11:23 PM |
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artu said:
You wouldn't need an "artu lesson" there. 
okay, that was uncalled but was waking up and started my preach then forgot to take out the grumpy beginning, which is only due to "before coffee" mood. Sorry, I always read your posts with interest.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 11:25 PM |
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Kayna said:
Ebon... I admit one of my arguments did dabble a little bit in possible futures, or pasts, but yours are going pretty deep at it. The differences can be found in the context of each, which helps find each people's intentions... Guessing people's intentions is a good way to find if they're going to do trouble later on or not.
This one is simple: What do you think we whites should have done - A) Enslaved them and treated them to horrific lives but eventually was set free or B)Killed them all and have written descriptions in the history books about them along with a skeleton at a museum?
While example A was certainly horrible, it turned out much better than option B would now did it not?
Kayna said:
Whites had the intentions of getting slaves, not save them with technology or clothless self inflicted genocide ( lol )
You need to read up on the history mate. First of all we did not have any real intentions of finding slaves, it was more a matter of exploring and secondly, in many tribes it was the chieftains themselves who offered slaves in return from other goods.
Kayna said:
These blacks that did shoot some cops yesterday wants to bring a problem to the table of discussion, a problem that isn't taken seriously otherwise. It's hardly the same thing. Your three examples have a certain irony related to some of the stuff I said, but hardly any real substance. They're just confusing examples. Seems to me that once again, you're taking things out of context.
Pardon me but...WHERE are the demonstrations about a black guy shooting a white guy? WHERE are the big mouths screaming racism?
I think the exact contrary - that I am right on the nose.
And Minion, it's because I have heard that blasted preach over and over again and in more forms than you can imagine. "Oh dear - poor and rich, class differences, feminism, environment" pick your part matey, I have heard them all.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 08, 2016 11:28 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:33, 08 Jul 2016.
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Quote:
I focus on what is now and do not go around worrying about the past. Thus, all lives matter.
Well, people are not exactly protesting slavery from 400 years ago. The slogan Black Lives Matter is based on the premise that there is still racial profiling among law enforcement which leads to unarmed black people getting shot disproportionatly more than white people.
How accurate is that premise is another question but your objection that "slavery is a thing of the past, let it go" is irrelevant since it is not history they are protesting to begin with.
Quote:
okay, that was uncalled but was waking up and started my preach then forgot to take out the grumpy beginning, which is only due to "before coffee" mood. Sorry, I always read your posts with interest.
That's okay, Sal. I wasn't offended or anything. I know I can be a smartass sometimes. It was just grumping back at you in a light-hearted manner.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 11:29 PM |
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I have a good idea folks. Why don't we all set a time we can all make and sit down on Skype and just talk? I for one, would prefer that to all this constant typing.
Thoughts on this?
"unarmed black people getting shot disproportionatly more than white people."
It's still many more Whites getting shot than Black you know.
Cry.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2016 11:36 PM |
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Oh my god.
A ) Only luck made it better for these black slaves. I'm tempted to give you an example of "take my crap because the alternative is even crappier" full of sexual themes to help you understand how crappy an argument that is but the admins will just censor me. It's incredible how nobody seems to be able to even IMAGINE a world with as less needless problems as possible. Always gotta be a problem somewhere. Crap and less crap ; the lesser of the two devils ; it takes a lot of effort for a little change ( on the liberal spectrum ) ; etc etc.
I mean come on. I know we're hammered all these fake ideas as we grow up but we don't have to believe in them all our lives. Yes, some are right, like, no pain no gain when you train physically, or work hard for a good pay off later on, but why do people always bring up these damnable "picture a world without any cops" when we can just picture a world where racist cops are dealt with in a proper manner...?
Everything else : Whatever. You're just seeing your own little view and fail to see certain specific and important points. At least I try to see it all and then admit my bias. Speaking of which, my fourth beer needs my help.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 08, 2016 11:36 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:38, 08 Jul 2016.
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Yes, Ebonheart, I've already read Elodin's link. That's why I said "the accuracy of the premise is another question." However, in the video you haven't watched, there are other statistics, ratio of people getting shot and ratio of unarmed people getting shot is a very different matter.
I personally prefer typing to talking on Skype, btw. so, no to Skype on my part.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 11:43 PM |
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I have three choices right now and I wonder which of them it will be:
1. I keep on typing but to no avail. It is obvious our political and historical importance views are different, you are more to the left and I am more to the right (I trust we can agree on that).
2. Pull out and do something else.
3. Agree on a date to sit down on Skype and just talk and see if we can enlighten eachother somehow - everyone is welcome to join.
Care to suggest folks?
Edit: No need to be shy Artu, besides, a good talk with a cold drink and some snacks will do you good.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 08, 2016 11:46 PM |
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I think that's a decision you can only make for yourself, grasshopper.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 11:47 PM |
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artu said:
I think that's a decision you can only make for yourself, grasshopper.
All humans are grasshoppers Artu, so welcome to the family.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2016 11:47 PM |
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Why do you think im on the left? I was indeed raised in such an environment but saying that certain problems can only be solved with violence is hardly "leftist".
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 11:52 PM |
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Kayna said:
Why do you think im on the left? I was indeed raised in such an environment but saying that certain problems can only be solved with violence is hardly "leftist".
Because of how you reason. I spend time with communists, maoists, social democrats, environmentalists and feminists every day at the university.
Imagine how that feels for me on the right side. It's like being a leftist and being surrounded by far extrimists and nazis.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 09, 2016 12:15 AM |
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artu said:
What I see is, a lot of people from the U.S. or Europe love to trash-talk about democracy, "the system," how it means nothing to vote, how everything is a lie etc etc... But they kind of do it in a manner like a teenager complaining about his parents. The minute the subject becomes something specific rather than democracy in general, same people start to talk about their constitutional rights, guaranteed liberties, their historical progress and the things it acquired them...
There is, of course, nothing wrong with bringing up the flaws of a system. Every political system has many flaws and being critical of these flaws is something progressive and it should be encouraged. However, democracy itself does not create social hierarchy or corruption or oligarchs. On the contrary, compared to totalitarian regimes, it actually significantly decreases or softens them. Despite everything, politicians in the progressed democracies have much more culpability and accountability, they resign sometimes due to public reaction, and their power abuse is very limited compared to the rest of the world.
i call it as i see it, in case you're wondering. just because the politics used in the states aren't as blatant as, say, putin's; that in no way means that what we have is an actual democracy, where sane and honest voices would actually count.
the last time we had a politician taken out of office prematurely due to naughty behavior, was bill clinton. you don't see bush jr. or ANY of his administration being held accountable for what they did, do you? that's because accountability in the states, as a politician, as a bank, or as a corporation; is no longer present. i'm sure anyone who has been paying attention to our country and the powers that move it during the past 16 years would automatically know exactly what i'm talking about.
take the hilary debacle now, for example. do you really think that'll make any impact on her advancement into office? snow no. there hasn't been any real accountability in this country for 16 snowing years, man.
and it's not just this country, either. if you think accountability is prevalent in a corrupt society, then you need to lay off the weed, man.
you can call my pov whatever you want, but to delude yourself in thinking that it's anything other than brute honesty, discredits yourself the same as slandering me.
not that i take it personally. if you don't believe me, you don't believe me. but the evidence is there(everywhere, in fact) for you to deciminate. and the evidence is pretty obvious, so i'm more than a little confused as to why anyone ever questions it. or maybe not. maybe they simply refuse to see what's all around them at any point in time.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 09, 2016 01:17 AM |
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There are degrees to accountability (or corruption) and how it causes politicians to auto-balance themselves, fred. Yes, the Bush administration should have been held accountable for the lies, and it's fair to be pissed at that example. But most of the things that are considered scandals in your country is pretty routine stuff in many parts of the world in the sense that people don't even expect anybody to resign because of them. Bribery for example is pretty much the norm in Eastern Europe and the Middle East to a degree which people perceive it as some unwritten code of management.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 09, 2016 01:29 AM |
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the degree of corruption doesn't matter to me. it matters to me, that corruption at all, is allowed to exist by the general populace. and i understand that it is easy to be corrupted, because of human nature, ego, and how money and power work in society.
but that should never excuse it, in any position of authority. ever. it should never be tolerated, period. but it is allowed to, and because it is, you have societies becoming what they are today. on the verge of collapse.
not to say that that isn't needed, either(history has shown that nations and people falling are part of the design of things, just like forest fires cleanse the forest of choking undergrowth). but i have standards, and corruption doesn't enter into them.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted July 09, 2016 03:37 AM |
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Edited by Celfious at 03:58, 09 Jul 2016.
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If you break the law, you're going to jail. Its that simple.
WRONG!!!!
{No reasonable prosecutor will bring a case if they cannot prove intent, beyond reasonable doubt.}
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