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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 08:01 PM |
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Go back to the gang, you belong there buddy. This chat is over.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2016 08:09 PM |
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Hey there. At least I didn't just raise my hands and say in a granny voice "But that's socialism"!
I told you. The devil lies in the details. Who has the power to solve the problem ( cops ), who doesn't ( blacks ), who intends to keep this problem going for perpetuity, according to the entirety of US history ( cops ) and who will go back to normal once the problem is solved ( blacks ).
Similar crap happens in China and their communist party, persecuting the evil evil practice of Falun Gong ( doing tai chi in parks ) just because the communist party decided they were evil 20 years ago and they don't want to admit today that they were wrong. Respecting the authority, the number one priority of every dumbass body of cops and governments.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 08:23 PM |
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Sigh alright, I shall try to explain how I look at this:
I'll use your soldier example. Let's say that one of the victims of the soldiers wrongdoing managed to survive. He was innocent and his family was slaughtered. He escapes and arrives in a village. There he meets a member of the ISIS, seeing as he got nothing left of his life and only a burning hatred for the US soldiers, he joins. As it then so happens, the very same soldiers enters the village. He takes his chance and throws a grenade at them behind their backs, all the soldiers perish along with 4 bystanders, 3 women and a child.
This action has now managed to trigger many chains of retribution: (I will only name 2 though to save space)
1. The father of the dead child and the mother gets furious when he hears how one of his own kin, one he fought with, blasted his beloved ones to brittle bones with no care they might get hurt.
2. The families of the dead soldiers, unaware of the soldiers missdeeds, recieve a letter stating their beloved one was KIA by a man throwing a hand grenade while their backs were turned. They now hate Iraq, they hate the war and perhaps even a few of their offsprings only learnt that their parent died trying to do his job as a soldier, now they have a hatred for Iraq and war or the opposite, a bloodlust.
It is very problematic when someone does something wrong and gets away with it. I do think it is a problem that blacks get shot by the police (in my world it is a problem if anyone gets shot when innocent or without trying anything funny - race and ethnicity does not matter).
But retribution just leads to more people wanting retribution. Because of this shooting for instance, more white people will be pissed and cops will feel very unsecure or angry.
Crime and missdeeds should and must be punished, but by the law - not civilians.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2016 08:32 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
But retribution just leads to more people wanting retribution. Because of this shooting for instance, more white people will be pissed and cops will feel very unsecure or angry.
Crime and missdeeds should and must be punished, but by the law - not civilians.
Ok. Maybe we agree on more things than I originally thought. But is it really how it goes in the real world? Can you make the difference between the promise of justice and the reality, where mister A gets justice but mister B doesn't? If I understand correctly, you just slice somewhere to stop the chain, without really caring who is the abused person.
A good representation of how our current justice is ; applied like a notary keeping a business afloat while overlooking the strange statistics of who, strangely, coincidently, ends up on the better end of the bargain and who ends up killed, while struggling to keep the appearance of justice for the individual victim.
But tell me, wouldn't a justice applied equally, for everyone, create less anger in overall, and thus create less crime on the long run?
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 08:42 PM |
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Kayna said:
Ok. Maybe we agree on more things than I originally thought. But is it really how it goes in the real world? Can you make the difference between the promise of justice and the reality, where mister A gets justice but mister B doesn't? If I understand correctly, you just slice somewhere to stop the chain, without really caring who is the abused person.
No you can't and you will never be able to. Let's take take the shootings as an example. The black guy got shot for no reason (the cop needs to be punished), but now some black dudes decided to bring out the guns and end 5+ lives. Now 5+ families+relatives+colleagues+black haters+random cops and many more - hate blacks and those attacking cops.
The cycle repeats over and over. While it is unfair that 1x person goes without justice, you need to cut the line somewhere and the sooner the better, if it was cut later, maybe 100x persons go without justice.
Kayna said:
A good representation of how our current justice is ; applied like a notary keeping a business afloat while overlooking the strange statistics of who, strangely, coincidently, ends up on the better end of the bargain and who ends up killed, while struggling to keep the appearance of justice for the individual victim.run?
No justice system is perfect and will never be perfect. The crux will always be that one event can spark thousands of others.
Kayna said:
But tell me, wouldn't a justice applied equally, for everyone, create less anger in overall, and thus create less crime on the long run?
It would mate, but humanity is not there yet. Even in perhaps the most peaceful and least criminal places like Switzerland, this is no reality. It is a goal to work towards, but there are many bumps in the road.
But a big step towards it is to make people of a certain group reside in their region of space without interferance from others and vice versa.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 08, 2016 08:54 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
Ye ye we get the point that you are a racist since you love to focus on race, but it gets tiresome to listen to it.
Your level of ignorance displayed here is astounding.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 09:01 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Your level of ignorance displayed here is astounding.
Right back at you, I guess we both agree on that. We are like Scrooge mc Duck and Flintheart Glomgold.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2016 09:01 PM |
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So basically, what you're saying to the black people is... "suck it up". Just to be clear on this.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 09:04 PM |
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Kayna said:
So basically, what you're saying to the black people is... "suck it up". Just to be clear on this.
No, what I am saying is to keep protesting but do not do any counterattacks and the same goes for the opposite side.
There is nothing wrong with protesting, it is infact encouraged (at least by me), but it shall not be an excuse to stirr up feelings and take the law above what it is.
Edit: In Sweden we had such a typical case in Ådalen, where striking workers got rallied up by a lot of communists because extra workers got called in during the strike, this lead to violence and ended with soldiers shooting dead 5 men.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2016 09:08 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 21:10, 08 Jul 2016.
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But if black people protest for years and cops shooting them still get prosecuted and found guilty at a wupping 5 % rate ( created a percentage here just for the sake of argument ), then they are still sucking it up, aren't they?
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 09:17 PM |
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Kayna said:
But if black people protest for years and cops shooting them still get prosecuted and found guilty at a wupping 5 % rate ( created a percentage here just for the sake of argument ), then they are still sucking it up, aren't they?
Yes but the cops are not responsible for why the system and the law is as it is now are they? They just get order to follow X law and during Y circumstances try to determine if deadly force is needed - but they are still humans with families and political values. This means that they do not deserve to die but they may very well be racists. However, if all cops would be this racist the death ratios would be beyond countable. Besides, what about the black cops who gets shot or shoot other blacks - they aren't exactly flamed now are they?
If things need to change, it's not the police you go to, but the politicians and media. Yet whenever someone takes the law in their own hands, it is like having them go to the liquor store instead and then go "wtf, why does nothing change our current situation?".
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2016 09:34 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 21:34, 08 Jul 2016.
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I think I understand you now. You... lost faith in your government and law, yet at the same time, believe in it... sometimes.
Cops have more power to solve this than you assume. Anyone with proof has power over a problem. It is this unwillingness to give testimony that makes cops guilty... in general. In the eyes of the people that is, not the law. Oh wait, isn't it illegal not to tell a crime that was commited? Hm. Well, it depends if said cop ever saw an illegal activity from a partner or not.
The law usually tries to treat everyone equally for a reason. If, according to some ... specific and logical reasoning ( that fails to see the bigger picture ), group A ( race, organization, sex, age, whatever ) usually ends up with the better bargain, and group B usually ends up losing, then group B can very well start fighting this. Words, swords, guns... Only giving group A and B equal rights would solve this. As long as this doesn't happen, then why is taking the side of group A morally superior than siding with group B ?
You say it is morally superior to side with group A because if group B just took their loss without fighting, then there would be less family members dealing with trauma. I think you fail to understand that it is group A that created this problem in the first place, and you fail to see that going-down-with-a-fight is a natural consequence. You are, pretty much, blaming the black people of seeing through the lies of the current government and their body of cops.
As they did in the matrix, you can't indirectly blame the black people for taking the red pill.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 09:48 PM |
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Kayna said:
lost faith
You give me too much credit, for I have lost faith in more than just my government.
Kayna said:
? Hm. Well, it depends if said cop ever saw an illegal activity from a partner or not.
I agree it is problematic, but justifying murder as a revenge is not the answer.
Kayna said:
The law usually tries to treat everyone equally for a reason.
Kayna, the law is impartial, unlike the ones who deploy it. But you are starting to touch onto my immigration area, when you split people up into A and B, ask yourself, would you have this problem if A lived in X area and B in Y area? Possibly, but not to the same degree.
Kayna said:
You say it is morally superior to side with group A
You make it too abstract now. I do not say that group A shall always win or for that matter have an advantage. But that both group A and B needs to take a loss, yes.
It's also wrong to assume group A created this, you know the old saying "It takes two to dance a tango". I have said that there might be some racist cops, but on the other hand, once again - where is the flaming for black cops shooting blacks or blacks shooting white? I for one, can't seem to pull up as much compared to the other way around.
I shortened down the quotes to save space.
Edit: This will be enough for me today, I need some rest.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2016 10:06 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 22:08, 08 Jul 2016.
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Ebonheart said:
I agree it is problematic, but justifying murder as a revenge is not the answer.
Is that even an argument? Or just words we were hammered in our skulls as we grew up? When the civil war happened, did the North go down in the South with protests? If they did, would it have worked? Where would they be today, still slaves, or free, but with drinking fountains for white and black people still?
Ebonheart said:
Kayna, the law is impartial, unlike the ones who deploy it. But you are starting to touch onto my immigration area, when you split people up into A and B, ask yourself, would you have this problem if A lived in X area and B in Y area? Possibly, but not to the same degree.
Totally not what I'm talking about. Group A and B in this instance are an organization and a race, not a race and another race. And it doesn't matter how impartial the law is in our fantasy. The only law we got is the real one, the one with corrupt cops in it that almost never pays for their crimes.
Ebonheart said:
You make it too abstract now. I do not say that group A shall always win or for that matter have an advantage. But that both group A and B needs to take a loss, yes.
It's also wrong to assume group A created this, you know the old saying "It takes two to dance a tango". I have said that there might be some racist cops, but on the other hand, once again - where is the flaming for black cops shooting blacks or blacks shooting white? I for one, can't seem to pull up as much compared to the other way around.
But you give group A the advantage with your conservative justice of slicing anywhere just for the sake of interrupting the cycle of violence, a cycle that -does not stop- even after slicing as you do because the victim is not granted enough reparation, keeping the hatred, or should I say, righteous anger, alive. With your conservative justice, winners remain winners and losers remain losers, so the hatred is not snuffed out.
Yes, group A started this. It all started by the slavery of black folk and brought over here. The trend of racism has been going on for a few centuries now is the same.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 08, 2016 10:16 PM |
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Kanya said:
I think I understand you now. You... lost faith in your government and law, yet at the same time, believe in it... sometimes.
This one is actually not a bad observation. What I see is, a lot of people from the U.S. or Europe love to trash-talk about democracy, "the system," how it means nothing to vote, how everything is a lie etc etc... But they kind of do it in a manner like a teenager complaining about his parents. The minute the subject becomes something specific rather than democracy in general, same people start to talk about their constitutional rights, guaranteed liberties, their historical progress and the things it acquired them...
There is, of course, nothing wrong with bringing up the flaws of a system. Every political system has many flaws and being critical of these flaws is something progressive and it should be encouraged. However, democracy itself does not create social hierarchy or corruption or oligarchs. On the contrary, compared to totalitarian regimes, it actually significantly decreases or softens them. Despite everything, politicians in the progressed democracies have much more culpability and accountability, they resign sometimes due to public reaction, and their power abuse is very limited compared to the rest of the world.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 10:20 PM |
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Kayna said:
When the civil war happened, did the North go down in the South with protests? If they did, would it have worked? Where would they be today, still slaves, or free, but with drinking fountains for white and black people still?
Yes, group A started this. It all started by the slavery of black folk and brought over here. The trend of racism has been going on for a few centuries now is the same.
My final statement before I go to bed (i'll read your coming reply though).
If you reason like this, which I must admit many on the left do - i'll slice it up in three ways.
1. Yes it was wrong to make the black folk slaves because of how we reason today, but back then we did not reason like this - but would you rather have them all killed in a war and Africa claimed by the whites?
2. If not for the whites, the blacks would never have this technology right now, nor laws or even clothes - before the whites came to Africa they were shattered tribes with techonology of what we had during the stone/bronze age. So would you wish for them to get back Africa and their knowledge and technology reduced back?
3. If we shall correct history based on what we now reason as fair, then I guess the UK should get my head since my ancestors murdered thousands of them in the viking raids. History matters, but at some point you need to let go off it (id say after 70-100 years, but this is my opnion).
Edit: Glad to be able to rest my fingers.
And Artu, cool it with them generalizations.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 08, 2016 10:37 PM |
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"A lot of people" is not a categorical generalization.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 08, 2016 10:53 PM |
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Not sure 100% but from memory can't say I heard anyone from EU in those forums complaining that it means nothing to vote. On the contrary, it means more than ever, because now we have serious alternatives. It is mainly fred who is a fatalist and has the "we're all doomed" attitude.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 08, 2016 11:03 PM |
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Ebonheart himself likes to talk about doom a lot also. Like you, I can't instantly produce a list from my memory but it's not just the two of them, though. Not all of these people are directly talking about voting in vain, but being cynical about a functioning democracy seems like a popular trend, especially among younger people.
If you're someone who witnessed something that is actually totalitarian though, you have a very different perspective. You wouldn't need an "artu lesson" there.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2016 11:11 PM |
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Can't sleep so yeah, I'm back.
I am doom and gloom because of the immigration coupled with insane borrowing on both the government and private side along with a long evolved socialistik thinking.
But Sal is right, I believe the right to vote counts now more than ever and while I am critical against this form of democracy, I am a 100% believer in Democracy Artu. =)
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