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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 08, 2017 06:56 PM |
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He was a wild card for the conservatives, for ones who had similar ideology even if not so on the margin. Of course, for an immigrant feminist who is a member of Green Peace, he was directly a no go on any basis. Trump was opposed by a serious portion of the Republicans just as well, whose opinions on immigration or abortion don't differ as drastic as someone from the other end of the political spectrum. This was what I originally said:
Quote:
I don't think everything works perfectly according to a scheme tailored by the corporatocracy. Trump was a wild card and they didn't expect him to win.
The establishment or the elites or whatever you call the people who are in sync with the recent status quo, didn't place Trump there as a distraction, they mostly thought he was unreliable and the overall results of him holding the office of presidency would be unpredictable and unstable. What a corporate elite would prioritize most would be political stability and Trump is certainly not an ideal candidate for that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
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posted February 08, 2017 07:21 PM |
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Back to square one. There is no unified corporatocracy - and what is more, the richer you are, the more money you can afford to pump into your favorite ideology. That isn't just true for Near East Muslim Oil Billionaires, it's also true for Western Banking moguls.
Donald Trump and his cronies are clearly in bed with PART of the corporatocracy and at odds with another part.
The main thing to keep in mind here: THAT IS THE RULE! Which means, in that regard Trump is not any different from his predecessors OR Hillary Clinton, it's just that he isn't a Wild Card. Plus, of course, his part of the corporatocracy is the past and wants to restore it.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 08, 2017 07:48 PM |
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I agree there is no unified corporatocracy, I never indicated there was, however, "rule number one" is anybody who is in favor of any status quo would prioritize stability and not rattling things too harshly which makes Trump a risk factor. Now, "being in bed with them" is quite a vague term, they were surely "in contact" estimating possible outcomes, even if they thought of his victory as something quite unlikely. What I'm trying to say is that the reason Trump got elected is not because a part of the corporate world backed him up and directly put him there, that can be a secondary factor and since he is a businessmen operating in those circles for decades, he most probably made some deals and promised some favors. But the essential dynamic is voters like Markkur who were fed up with the way things are and desperately went ahead for "ANY" change. As a populist, Trump knew how to use this by exploiting a reaction to a certain sort of political correctness which people saw as a farce. He packaged himself as the brave taboo breaker, so what would normally be perceived as reckless behavior suddenly transformed into frankness in the eyes of a serious portion of the population. That is the part I care about most because that is the part which is unique and which differs from any other conservative candidate who would be "in bed" with bankers or oil companies etc.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
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posted February 08, 2017 08:06 PM |
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Yes, sure, he sold himself as anti-establishment, but what he meant was he may fart at a gala diner and laugh it off and what was read into it was he might tear down the whole politocracy.
He ISN'T a wild card - he just played outsider.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 08, 2017 08:12 PM |
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Going on and on about whether he is a wild card or not seems to turn into a debate of semantics which is not that important at the moment. The way I use the term, he is, because he is impulsive and his actions can lead to unpredictable results even for people who backed him up for who he is, not what he pretends to be. But fine, you keep calling him "a disgrace" instead.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 08, 2017 08:57 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 08, 2017 10:57 PM |
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404
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted February 08, 2017 11:02 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 23:03, 08 Feb 2017.
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When I consider the election of President Trump, it was and is a last ditch effort, that was made by American citizens to halt the growing global system prioritizing "Global-Business interests and goals", that has held "nearly" complete power in stealing and redistributing a shrinking tax-base by holding onto all the cards behind Banking, Business and Political Power.
I can personally relate to the dire-wish and it was/is little more. While I do approve of some changes the new-President has made, other appointments, to me, point right back to the age-old status-quo, making my previous doubt, that anyone could shake the present shackles on any elected President look confirmed.
Consider how I review "my dire wish".
1. No matter where a soul stands with Abortion, the existing population "chose", over decades now, that it did NOT want millions of the next-generation of American's. This necessarily meant...fewer native born taxpayers to fill the future roles of needed revenue to support American-Society's already existing Welfare-program-budgets.
2. U.S. Global-CEOs. after using other Nations around the globe, decided the fact that the Chinese masses were living under a totalitarian regime, didn't matter anymore and China would be prime real-estate for greater PROFITs, for "forward-thinking" Companies. Thus, when the plentiful and poor Chinese workers became a commodity for Global Capitalism? (btw, now newly redefined) American Production left our States in droves for decades.
3. Next, Big Government and Big Business collectively pilfered and squandered tax dollars and in often criminal ways for personal gain. However, as bad as that was, that GREED resulted in the general destruction of America's Middle-Class. Which of course made-up a significant part of tax-revenues and the assets necessary to pay for a growing Welfare-tab. Further, another source of revenue; Small-businesses "in any Nation" could not compete with today's huge International Corporations and therefore scads were removed from the basic tax-base.
4. To this point, the tax-base has also been hit by loss of taxpayers by death as well as and prevention of new LIFE, and also by the "Mining" of taxpayers net-worth, the value of the dollar behind massive bail-outs paid for by fiat-money, while their savings and retirement plans dwindled.
5. Then, NEW lotteries sweep the nation and the basic engine of economics took another hit by "making it legal" for the duped and desperate masses, to take some amount of their "necessary" money and throw-it-away on a dream of sudden-wealth appearing and rescuing them from their increasing poverty and strife.
6. Next, we add in the NOW unavoidable terrific demographic impact of the Baby-Boomers entering retirement and the NEEDS of Health-Care.
7. Add the reality of State-budgets not being fiscally-sound to meet "existing obligations" that had already been in the Red many times in recent decades and somehow, our Government can save the day by continually selling the people, the tax-base out to the highest bidder?
8. Now let's add another damaging fact to "today's tax-base". People here @ HC often do not like it, when I slam unregulated-Tech and highlight, Robots (China) and A.I. (Japan)or Currency-control (the USA) blanketing the future promise of human work and value.
However, it has and is doing just that and how much damned sense does it make, that while the world, today, "collectively has NOT HAVE ENOUGH jobs", for these uncaring Multi-National Corporations to pursue even more human-replacement? I've said this before; that “the World” is not going to give "most" people here a sweet lifestyle to only play video-games in some Utopian life of leisure. <imo> That is a very tragic “want”.
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So what does a huge Government, like ours do? when guilty of such error and arrogant abuse of its very tax-base and faces such huge problems, to the debit of over 10 Trillion dollars? When in reality, it is loaded with friends, sycophants and cronies, that are nothing greater than a large body of "people who contribute little more than managing “other people's money, labor and FUTURE”, to then take their-cut", and sustaining their own privileged way of life, which is a life-style of wealth and power of which a “worker” could never pursue.
At the end of this railroading, is what should be "filtered and understood" by most of us, as if we heard these same people, from from behind the last decades of their collective failures; stood up and shouted..."We must IMPORT MORE TAXPAYERS to SUPPORT "the Welfare-State" and "the Warfare-State and we will keep our existing Power. Vote for US!
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Finally, at the end of this nightmare looms a contributing and a growing problem, that assaults everything about being HUMAN.
Consider 2 value-systems at cross-purposes, regarding economics.
1. Basic-economics is NOT fundamentally "Human-focused." However, I think it must be governed by economic-principles that do indeed benefit most of Humanity or instead it will become a curse to the masses.
And what do we have?
2. Human-livelihood today, is seen, anywhere and everywhere, as an enemy to Profit, that needs to be replaced by Corporate-Machinery of all inventions.
The latter outlook rules the world today and is passively accepted by ignorance, incapable of seeing the March of the Machine, trampling necessary human lively-hoods into the financial oblivion of the Corporation’s ‘bottom-line”. When Mexico imploded during the 90s, Farmers could find little SEED to grow new crops. This moment, during the on-going catastrophic conditions in Venezuela, once again Farmers have no stores of SEEDS, so much for Human Progress.
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"Do your own research"
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JollyJoker
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posted February 09, 2017 09:45 AM |
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Markkur, times change, and that has always been so. If you look at the history of the US, you are an ex European colony, built upon the Natives (who were basically rounded up in what I would call big compounds), who had to bow before the power of change. Then you got rid of the shackles of the European overlord, and you went ahead and imported slave labor for your agriculture in the South, while you also enjoyed the luxury of exploring and conquering "the West", masses of land for the taking and for longhorns to breed, gold to dig up and for everyone having a chanc to make a fortune.
The US never knew the social component that crept into things in Europe. It has always been an "elbow society" in which everything was just waiting to be picked up and the law was a pretty abstract concept in far away places. I would characterize the US by saying, as Christian as your country always has been on the OUTSIDE - "God" and religion is virtually everywhere - as UN-Christian your country is from the inside, because the US and their people may have had God and Jesus on their lips, but they still have been dancing around the golden calf, the almighty dollar. Business, competition, capitalism - all very American, all very un-Christian, which is the reason why you have a giant porn industry on one hand, but laws that forbid selling sex or even giving head. The US are guilty of the deadly sin of avarice, if you want to speak in Biblical terms.
And the world isn't different. It's YOUR rules, basically. YOU brought American style capitalism everywhere - and you just reap what you sow.
That's not bad, though. The world has become a pretty productive place, and it's getting more productive by the second. New things are invented faster than ever, a technology has just been developed, then it's already made obsolete by something new and better. Quite obviously the only way to go is FORWARD, because backwards won't work: you'll just lose your footing, fall and be trampled down. The only thing to decide upon is the SPEED with which to go forward. At this stage there is only the GLOBAL solution, and the US would do itself and the world a favor if it would help overseeling that solution and the future and not put the head in the sand and gobble up the wine cellar while the house comes crashing down which is what your current government has started.
What the world needs is a global order. Sure, some shrink away from the idea, summoning pictures of a dystopian future, an inhuman future, a technological future, a future with humans wasting their time with endless games and entertainment while the ruling oligarchy calls the shots ... But it's OUR future, and it's in OUR power to build it - it hasn't HAVE to be that way - as it hasn't have to end in a giant nuclear holocaust. We have everything in our hands, and it's high time for the US population to accept that the world is bigger as the stretch between New Yorkd and LA. We just must get rid of that deadly sin AVARICE, which is easier said than done.
And to get this to an end - You just voted vor avarice in its purest form - and probably for every other as well.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted February 09, 2017 03:08 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 15:14, 09 Feb 2017.
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JollyJoker said:
...I would characterize the US by saying, as Christian as your country always has been on the OUTSIDE - "God" and religion is virtually everywhere - as UN-Christian your country is from the inside, because the US and their people may have had God and Jesus on their lips, but they still have been dancing around the golden calf, the almighty dollar. Business, competition, capitalism - all very American, all very un-Christian, which is the reason why you have a giant porn industry on one hand, but laws that forbid selling sex or even giving head. The US are guilty of the deadly sin of avarice, if you want to speak in Biblical terms.
No argument from me, mostly agreement. Two comments however.
One, you do have "some" rage at this nation's hypocrisy but mine is a "fury" on this subject.
And then there is something else you "may" not have heard from an American Christian before. You've read my thoughts about Porn and its place. I lived 25 years before my turn-around. I still remember to this day when 17 or 18, seeing the news from Vietnam and wondering how that was not WORSE than casual Sex.
Today, I can still see what I KNOW worse and it is not mental sexual self-absorption, consenting or solo. Sorry about that frankness, but my view is the fact that evidence has always revealed Americans know little about Moderation, regarding any freakin' object.
Comic Markkur story that ends in Reason.
I was working 60hrs/week and doing one of my home-projects as I recently explained recently in Rambling w/ Pain.
I had tons on my plate and of course as every homeowner knows as imperative...I also "kept-up with the Joneses." Actually I always bought the cheapest house in a neighborhood, remodeled it and then sold it as the best and most expensive at a nice profit.
Anyway...GRASS.
I left work on a Saturday, afternoon when it was a nice late-Spring day and the grass was on SPEED and growing like Morels overnight.
I quickly push-mowed the yard and all the time I was thinking "how little time I had". I finished and put the mower away in the garage.
However, I saw my new bag of "Scott's lawn-fertilizer" and grabbed the broadcast-spreader and went to work fertilizing the whole yard.
During that all important "job" I returned to my previous thinking about not having enough time. Whamo! Bingo long and the all-stars, sense made an appearance for once! I AM MAKING, THIS, MY GRASS, GROW EVEN FASTER TO MAKE SURE, I HAVE EVEN LESS TIME!!!
Oh...but it looked soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo gooooooooooooood.
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When it comes to this lost nation? think only...Advertising. Greed and Materialism has captured a high % of Americans. Today's Religion is merely buying a Brand of shoes. <imo>That's why Depression is catastrophic here. I know first-hand, from growing-up in a family that was  'd when you are broken-up inside and missing each natural slot of family, a person tries to fill that/each void in some fashion. Most often with a Drug, or Drugs, or Anger, or Porn, or Games, or Work, or hobbies etc.(Our Passions) However, one of the most impacting on life...is endless-buying-on-credit...what you can never repay and then it is a strangling-noose. Once a person/soul is hanging by the neck...there is no escape.
I never owed anyone anything all my life, until, I got sick in my mid 40s. Then the monster greed machine called "the health-industry" sucked every extra-copper I had out of my pockets. I mean ALL; I've carried an empty wallet for the last five years. And you know what? in 16 years...I received temp-help..."one brief shining moment". The whole experience was a long medical trip of nearly absolute folly but when a person's life is in jeopardy?...they WILL buy...that damned lottery ticket. Metaphorically-speaking of course.
JollyJoker said:
And the world isn't different. It's YOUR rules, basically. YOU brought American style capitalism everywhere - and you just reap what you sow.
I do hope you read some of my outrage about that. Hopefully my "Meeting with Winston Churchill"
JollyJoker said:
The world has become a pretty productive place, and it's getting more productive by the second.
We are never to see eye to eye on that one. I'll think as rebel as you generally are JJ. you are the typical follower behind that illusion.
Having faster and faster Machines while Humanity is forced to idleness? can never be human-happiness, of course with the much smaller exception for "the Wizards of Oz's behind the curtain." And unless I miss my guess, you are not one of the lever-pullers but you already know that.
Cheers my German counterpart
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted February 09, 2017 04:39 PM |
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For those with active minds that are tired of mine Here's a short, valid article that may be of interest when it comes to understand our American "peasant"Political challenge today.
I think it true that "sometimes" other nations follow our lead but often I believe it a more forced business compliance, much like Wal-Mart has over every supplier of anything. Wal-Mart dictates all.
From Newsbud
Rule by Brute Force: The True Nature of Government
link
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JollyJoker
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posted February 09, 2017 08:22 PM |
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That's certainly a good article - and I basically agree insofar that I think, more Americans should have gone for different candidates than both Trump or Clinton.
In any case I don't think the problem is the executive branch, although this is, as the name says, the most active part. Technology just increases their options. The problem is more, like, "diverging interests" within the population in general. Politicians are, after all, deputies or proxies of the population - PARTS of the population, that is. The question is always, for whom is a politician REALLY speaking, and here we are at the money again. Why would a politician be different than a lawyer? If a lawyer takes on a pro-bono case on one hand and a fat case that may net him a couple of millions he SHOULD treat both equally, but we are all only human, aren't we? If the lawyer manage to screw up the big case, not only he'll lose money, he might have an enemy as well. Losing a pro-bono case, well.
I think, there is no solution for this dilemma. Power is dangerous, but also a good thing. It's like the sun. We have to learn to harness it without burning us.
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mvassilev
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posted February 09, 2017 09:24 PM |
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Quote:
Having faster and faster Machines while Humanity is forced to idleness?
The only problem is that we're not "cursed" enough. The purpose of production is consumption, and if we can produce more with less human effort, then we can enjoy more leisure. To use an extreme example, if one hour of work earned you enough to live on for the rest of your life, how much would you work? I expect most would work very little, and be better off for it.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 09, 2017 09:39 PM |
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I don't see technology as a threat but the gap in that logic of "if one hour of work earned you enough to live on for the rest of your life" would be, how will one hour of work earn you enough to live for the rest of your life? If workers will be completely replaced by machines, why should the employers keep on paying them, especially paying them so generously that one hour of work will pay enough for a life time. The paradox here is that an ever expanding capitalism doesn't only mean more production, it would also require a consumer base with enough capital to spend on those products. So if you reach a point where you can produce more but there is nobody left to buy what you produce, you'd be stuck.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 09, 2017 09:49 PM |
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Look, guys, this isn't the theread for this, but "work" has been changing meaning over the millennia and centuries. For example, today, you can earn a lot of money with w work description that mostly says, "listen to people and ask a few questions frequently". That doesn't sound like "work" ast all.
Which is to say, the more BASIC LABOR is done by machines, the more interesting, different and hitherto UNKNOWN work is possible.
Example for an hitherto unknown future job: virus designer.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 09, 2017 09:52 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:54, 09 Feb 2017.
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Well, there are futurists who suggest that the management sector is also on its way to be replaced by AI, what if you have computers capable of designing viruses much faster and much more efficiently. But for reasons I stated above, I don't see that happening soon. Capitalism needs people who earn.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 09, 2017 10:53 PM |
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Computers are nothing without software.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 09, 2017 10:58 PM |
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It's about software designing software, dude. A Brave New World, if you will.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 09, 2017 11:10 PM |
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No, that doesn't work. You need a REAL AI for that, and I'm pretty sure that*s not going to happen with the computers we know. As much as we won't travel the galaxy with Saturn 5s.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 09, 2017 11:15 PM |
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Well, a lot of people who specify in computer software seem to disagree and estimate we will have AI designing AI in the near future. It's not Star Trek.
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