|
| Thread: Did Feminists Lied/Over Exagerated Women's Victimhood? |  This thread is pages long: 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... 20 30 31 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
|
posted July 18, 2014 05:57 PM |
|
Edited by meroe at 17:58, 18 Jul 2014.
|
There is only so far this topic can go before we are going around in circles. And despite the OP's continued attempt to rile and provoke with his ridiculous claims i.e. men earned the right to vote, but women didn't, or female virgins are considered saints yet male virgins are not.
I mean this just proves my points. 1) that JE is undoubtedly a troll and 2) that all of you who relate to this simply cannot yet grasp equality regarding the sexes. You just cant.
And I am going to explain why. Just this once because quite frankly I have found the discussion and attitudes of many of the posters to not just be disappointing, but eye-opening and depressing for me.
Not one of you who have bemoaned your belief that feminism means a reduction in rights for men, have ever once considered the simplest of facts. Men have always had the luxury of rights, in everything. For centuries. In fact it is so ingrained in the male psyche you cannot even comprehend your privilege. You haven't deserved those privileged rights, you never earned them. You just took them, through brute force mainly, or through laws made up by men, for men. So when the remaining 50% of the population turns to you and says, 'we would like to be treated equally as there is no honest, intelligent or moral reason why we shouldn't'. Your reaction, instead of one of introspection and investigation, is just a simple knee-jerk reaction of 'but if we share doesn't that mean I lose something? Will I be less of a man if I share equality with women?'.
And still, almost none of you have figured out that your undeserved claim on ultimate power has never been about masculinity, but about oppression. And yet men, over the millennia have somehow managed to merge the two together into an indelible unconscious right for them. A vast majority of it is rooted in fear. Fear of women challenging you. Fear of women making their own decisions that do not agree with your own.
You guys here now discussing this, are of course not to blame for what founding fathers decided would be their rights against women. Of course not. But the fact that some of you take this stance just seems a little dubious to me. I've read somewhere that someone likened it to being blamed for the slave trade just because of being white. I've witnessed this myself. Good grief so many times - usually militant black people with a personality problem, or some white middle class liberal apologist trying to score points. My reply has always been the same. "First off I am Irish, we never oppressed anyone because we were too busy being starved out of Ireland and oppressed by the British. And secondly the people responsible for the slave trade have been dead for over 200 years". But because some a-hole with a chip has decided to say that to me simply because I am white, does not mean that the slave trade never happened or that blacks are still not disadvantaged today. It just means I ran into an a-hole. Pure and simple. And if I were to use that a-hole as a form to justify my turning a blind eye to racism, well guess what - that makes me a racist and an oppressor and an ignorant s***.
I am wondering if many of you have even bothered to read up and research about the history of oppression against women.
Yeah its frightening. Its frightening because as a male you have been accorded privilege from birth, just because you are male. Gender roles, mindsets - all are in your favor. Feminists are not saying that men are scum because of this. What feminists are saying is that it is time to share that privilege with females. Equal rights for all, not just women, children, other races etc. The only reduction to any right you may think you are entitled to will be the right to that perceived entitlement.
“You painted a naked woman because you enjoyed looking at her, put a mirror in her hand and you called the painting “Vanity,” thus morally condemning the woman whose nakedness you had depicted for you own pleasure.”
-John Berger, Ways of Seeing
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 09:27 PM |
|
Edited by fred79 at 21:46, 18 Jul 2014.
|
meroe said:
And I am going to explain why. Just this once because quite frankly I have found the discussion and attitudes of many of the posters to not just be disappointing, but eye-opening and depressing for me.
ditto. to see people pull a complete logic reversal, when other issues have been discussed more logically, is unsettling. promoting sexism to fight sexism, is ridiculous, and will damage the validity of the entire message of "we are for equality". for all i know(and any of you know), the entire movement could be being manipulated from the inside; by the same kind of people they are fighting against, and are putting out information that can be used to discredit feminist's positive movement forward in society.
meroe said:
Not one of you who have bemoaned your belief that feminism means a reduction in rights for men, have ever once considered the simplest of facts. Men have always had the luxury of rights, in everything. For centuries. In fact it is so ingrained in the male psyche you cannot even comprehend your privilege. You haven't deserved those privileged rights, you never earned them. You just took them, through brute force mainly, or through laws made up by men, for men. So when the remaining 50% of the population turns to you and says, 'we would like to be treated equally as there is no honest, intelligent or moral reason why we shouldn't'. Your reaction, instead of one of introspection and investigation, is just a simple knee-jerk reaction of 'but if we share doesn't that mean I lose something? Will I be less of a man if I share equality with women?'.
i don't know about anyone else here, but equal rights for women doesn't in any way threaten me. i am all for equality among sex, race, etc.
meroe said:
And still, almost none of you have figured out that your undeserved claim on ultimate power has never been about masculinity, but about oppression. And yet men, over the millennia have somehow managed to merge the two together into an indelible unconscious right for them. A vast majority of it is rooted in fear. Fear of women challenging you. Fear of women making their own decisions that do not agree with your own.
that's a pretty broad statement. is that directed at all men, or just the sexist oppressors?
meroe said:
You guys here now discussing this, are of course not to blame for what founding fathers decided would be their rights against women. Of course not. But the fact that some of you take this stance just seems a little dubious to me. I've read somewhere that someone likened it to being blamed for the slave trade just because of being white. I've witnessed this myself. Good grief so many times - usually militant black people with a personality problem, or some white middle class liberal apologist trying to score points. My reply has always been the same. "First off I am Irish, we never oppressed anyone because we were too busy being starved out of Ireland and oppressed by the British. And secondly the people responsible for the slave trade have been dead for over 200 years". But because some a-hole with a chip has decided to say that to me simply because I am white, does not mean that the slave trade never happened or that blacks are still not disadvantaged today. It just means I ran into an a-hole. Pure and simple. And if I were to use that a-hole as a form to justify my turning a blind eye to racism, well guess what - that makes me a racist and an oppressor and an ignorant s***.
i was the one here who mentioned the racial aspect of the flawed statement that turns me away from feminism; which is "all men oppress females". feel free to mention me by name, for i am not ashamed one bit of using that argument to display the ridiculousness of the feminist statement.
you say a black racist is an ***hole for saying that all white people are responsible for the past's slave trade(and, i'm guessing, for promoting the idea that whites of this day and age are to be held accountable for it). and yes, slavery existed(exists), and sexism existed(exists). but how can you miss that that is the point i'm trying to make? i never said that racism or sexism doesn't exist(or that sexists or racists don't exist, either), i said i have not seen much of it in the states. stereotypical jokes, yes, but from both sexes. the subject seems to me to be of a much lighter-hearted nature, at least in the u.s. like i said, both blacks and women are supposedly oppressed, but we have a black(or half-black) president, and we almost had a female president. claims that "all men are oppressors", at this point in time...
meroe said:
I am wondering if many of you have even bothered to read up and research about the history of oppression against women.
Yeah its frightening. Its frightening because as a male you have been accorded privilege from birth, just because you are male. Gender roles, mindsets - all are in your favor. Feminists are not saying that men are scum because of this. What feminists are saying is that it is time to share that privilege with females. Equal rights for all, not just women, children, other races etc. The only reduction to any right you may think you are entitled to will be the right to that perceived entitlement.
i don't read much history, myself. why? because people who dwell on history tend to live in it, instead of move on with their lives. i could dwell in the fact that i was abused as a child. i could dwell in the fact that i was brought up to be a monster. i could dwell in the fact that so many have pushed my buttons, that so many people are deserving of that monster. i can feel the hatred and rage building, and multiplying, even now as i type this.
but then i think, "why?". "why should i let THEM win?". "why should i become the monster i was raised to be?".
i say, no. **** the past. a painful past only hurts, it never heals. the only way the human race can move forward as a species, is to bury all the wrongs of their ancestors. to bury all the hatreds. to bury it all, and let it die. from that death, a better life can be had.
and that's what i've done. i just shake my head, when people dredge up old grievances about something horrible that happened a multitude of years ago, that DIDN'T EVEN HAPPEN TO THEM. dwelling in a terrible past, only recycles old hatred, and it IS a cycle, as long as people keep it going. so, no, i don't read(or watch) about horrible histories of what happened to people. i focus on the present, and the future. it could be a bright one, if the human race decided to pull it's head out of it's collective ass.
know that, i don't speak for anyone else, when i post this. i only speak for myself: a white man, who oppresses no one. a white man, who only wants people to come together, peacefully; so that we can all move FORWARD, instead of around and around in circles.
---------
lol. i'm pouring my heart out to people on the internet. i know none of you gives a rat's ass. everyone is just sooo cyber-hardened. 
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 10:10 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Thanks DagothGares. While you have enlightened me about women's suffering in the middle ages, you also gave me a very good argument to combat those atheists frowning on the Bible because of slavery. I mean, I'm not a Christian but I always love to slam atheists' popular mantra "but the Bible encourages slavery", you know what I mean?
I did?
Either way, I believe women to this day are oppressed, because of the loads of harassment women tend to suffer without consequence. I take public transportation every day and I travel around with women often and I'm not blind. And I'm not deaf to their stories. And most often people feel this perverse need to defend these monsters that grope/ stalk/ make crude remarks at girls.
"You shouldn't dress like such a promiscuous honey bun, daughter/ sister/ gal pal o mine. Thou was positively demanding it." is what they often say.
Also there's the need to look pretty that is not on men at all.
An example from the film world: men can look like deformed monsters (Steve Buscemi) or be fat and short (Danny Devito) and they can be taken completely seriously and at face value (Come on, who didn't like mr pink in reservoir dogs?). Fat women and ugly women only do comedy roles. They're a source of ridicule and the like.
I'm not saying people should hire ugly women in some bizarre movement to reverse this or whatever. I am saying that women are judged by their looks first and foremost, but with men we can see past that.
They also have to paint themselves to make themselves look attractive to us or something. It's really weird. Like, it's ridiculous, but we only realise it's ridiculous when we apply it to men.
Also, supposedly they have it really bad in the corporate and IT world, but I haven't seen much of that. I think women certainly are capable of making money and becoming big in society. One of the most powerful people in the world is a woman after all and she is almost completely unjudged by her appearance (Angela Merkel), so that's why I think maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Germany is outside of this or something.
I think oppression of women is just on a very base, instinctual, day-to-day level that I would never want to experience. Like, I am really pretty and I get uncomfortable when older women jokingly make comments about this. I don't think I'd like to be approached by younger humans that are bigger and stronger than me and want my number or facebook and may react unpredictably when I refuse.
I have a question for people at HC: What do you think of people that walk up to girls to ask their number, e-mail or facebook outside of bars and outside of parties or otherwise social gatherings?
I think they're slimy creeps.
In short I think women are oppressed, because you can easily get away with harassing them and because they are usually judged by their appearance first and foremost, even outside of situations where those things shouldn't matter. These are the primary things. There's also a truckload of casual misogynists, who complain about "friend zones" and that woman are stupid and emotional etc or that think woman shouldn't be allowed to vote or don't have a right to their own body etc. Either way, I'm just grateful that I'm a pretty, white man in a germanic country. I have had some unfortunate things happened in my life, but my lot as a whole in life has definitely been on the side of "good" to "really good" due to my aforementioned status.
EDIT: I just wanted to say this. Haven't been following too well. Everyone's idea of oppression seemed very broad and statistically significant to me. Wanted to talk about this for a moment. Seemed like a neglected point to me.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 10:15 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I am saying that women are judged by their looks first and foremost, but with men we can see past that.
Not true.
A simple example of this is job application. Good looking men benefit greatly from adding a picture to the CV while women are mostly unaffected.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 10:20 PM |
|
|
Source?
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 10:27 PM |
|
|
JoonasTo said:
Quote:
I am saying that women are judged by their looks first and foremost, but with men we can see past that.
Not true.
A simple example of this is job application. Good looking men benefit greatly from adding a picture to the CV while women are mostly unaffected.
I'll definitely remember this!
I don't know, with men being pretty is just a nice bonus, but with women, it's very defining. I don't have an excess amount of attention predicated on my looks. Not every single interaction I have with people has the undercurrent of attraction and "is he saying this because I'm pretty?"
("Maybe it's because you're not THAT pretty, Dagoth.")
(("YES I AM!!"))
Like, I don't think women have to be pretty in the corp or IT world, but I think it's a really big thing in service industry and the entertainment industry. Like, in a technical sector, when you make a clock and it works, no one can be like "Oh, this is such a frail, deceitful FEMININE creation." Like, either your clock works or it doesn't. But in jobs where you need to interact or communicate more with people it, it would surprise me if this factor is insignificant.
Like, looks define interest and whether you're being taken seriously much more with women than so with men, I think. Also, maybe the picture helps, because men have higher chances of being huge creeps or loners.
That's not meant to be misandric, but if you think it is, then I apologise to whomever I offended.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 10:30 PM |
|
Edited by fred79 at 22:35, 18 Jul 2014.
|
DagothGares said:
They also have to paint themselves to make themselves look attractive to us or something. It's really weird. Like, it's ridiculous, but we only realise it's ridiculous when we apply it to men.
personally, i hate makeup on a female. i love the au-naturale look. skin-wise, anyway. hair-wise, i don't really care for a woman to have a grizzly bear in a leg-lock, but that's just personal aesthetics. there are guys out there who prefer a woman to be furry, but i'm not one of them. that doesn't make me sexist(and i'm not saying that anyone is claiming differently), that just talks about my personal preferences. men and women both have them. some women prefer men hairier, some women don't.
DagothGares said:
I think women certainly are capable of making money and becoming big in society. One of the most powerful people in the world is a woman after all and she is almost completely unjudged by her appearance (Angela Merkel), so that's why I think maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Germany is outside of this or something.
don't forget the queen of england.
DagothGares said:
I have a question for people at HC: What do you think of people that walk up to girls to ask their number, e-mail or facebook outside of bars and outside of parties or otherwise social gatherings?
i find it hard to believe that attraction=slimeball sexist. that's going a little far. i've been hit on by gay guys at a gay bar, now are they oppressing me? no, they're just attracted to me. i even bought one dude a drink after i felt that i had hurt his feelings in the manner i had told him, "no thanks, i'm not gay." it was a mistake on my part to be offended, when he was merely attracted to me.
DagothGares said:
In short I think women are oppressed, because you can easily get away with harassing them and because they are usually judged by their appearance first and foremost, even outside of situations where those things shouldn't matter.
i don't think it is easy at all to get away with harrassing women, at least in the united states. what i see, instead, is the reverse: males being prosecuted for simple office flirting, which both males and females participate in. sure, there will be cases that go too far, and the prosecution in those cases are righteous(for both males AND females); but many times, it is an overreaction to simple attraction, or playful flirting.
as far as judging first by appearance, both men AND women do that, so that isn't an argument that will hold up. and that has nothing to do with sexism, necessarily. it is part of the species' genetic makeup. using it to describe oppression, is a little far-fetched.
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 10:36 PM |
|
|
Don't remember the source, it was a few years ago.
I think it has to do with the assumption that women are EXPECTED to take care of their looks by default so the picture adds no new information while a man who is willing to put in the effort to look good is not a given.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 10:39 PM |
|
|
Quote:
i've been hit on by gay guys at a gay bar, now are they oppressing me?
That's at a bar though. I was specifically referring to non-social situations. Bars are agreed upon as places where you look for company. Any port in a storm, sailor. 
Quote:
don't forget the queen of england.
I have never been a fan of power through who your parents are and kings/ queens are glorified diplomats anyway.
Quote:
what i see, instead, is the reverse: males being prosecuted for simple office flirting, which both males and females participate in.
If both were playfully flirting, who filed the law suit?
Quote:
as far as judging first by appearance, both men AND women do that, so that isn't an argument that will hold up. and that has nothing to do with sexism, necessarily.
A man is what he says and does. With a woman that comes second. That is sexist. People who comment on news sites that the female supreme court judge is hideous like it's offensive to them are sexist and want to oppress women. This comes from the view that women should be pleasing to eye first and foremost.
And while I say Steve Buscemi looks appalling, I don't think anyone has actually ever been offended by his appearance.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 11:46 PM |
|
Edited by fred79 at 23:56, 18 Jul 2014.
|
DagothGares said:
That's at a bar though. I was specifically referring to non-social situations. Bars are agreed upon as places where you look for company. Any port in a storm, sailor.
lol. no, i would react the exact same way in a non-bar setting. i don't see it as offensive, being hit on. i see it as a compliment. if i was a woman, and i was hit on all the time, i'd probably get a huge ego about it. and some women do. others, they don't like that much attention. i think what it boils down to is, personal preference. but saying all females are oppressed, because males might hit on them for being attracted to them(when it's in both sexes' genetic makeup); and that it can be used as ammunition against males in a feminist argument, is irresponsible, to say the least.
DagothGares said:
If both were playfully flirting, who filed the law suit?
i was referring to men or women that find it offensive, but it really depends on the case. there are definitely cases that are justified, i have no doubt. creeps DO exist, both females AND males. they tend to be called by different names, though; which is another argument altogether.
DagothGares said:
A man is what he says and does. With a woman that comes second.
i don't see this as true. do most females care that george clooney can act? no, they think he's handsome first. i have seen ugly, bad-looking guys who are intelligent, and have great personalities, get passed up for attractive dimwits who are sexist ***holes. more often than not, a female will pick a sexist ***hole over a decent guy. i know this from personal experience. it actually pays to be a sexist ***hole. and why? because women fall in love with them. that's another issue i have, when it comes to "all men are oppressors of women". the more i think about it, the more i realize, that it is all a bull**** argument. sexes are going to be attracted to one another, and personal preference rules over all. i am all for equality, but i don't think everyone is on the same page. some people like some things, some people don't. that's not to say that sexism doesn't actually exist, because it does. what i think, though, is that more often than not, it will boil down to personal preference. just like you have men and women that will murder, and some that won't. you've got to factor in genes, upbringing, exposure to different ideas, etc, etc... there are too many things, to narrow anything down to "we, as women, are all oppressed, and it is the males who oppress us". that is a drastically over-generalized statement, and moreso, when it is used in an argument FOR equality, harms the cause directly.
DagothGares said:
And while I say Steve Buscemi looks appalling, I don't think anyone has actually ever been offended by his appearance.
i always liked steve buscemi. he's one of my favorite actors. and i don't think he looks bad at all. 
speaking of looks, i'm sick and tired of seeing beautiful people in movies, commercials, and the like. i think that, the reason fat and ugly people are playing comedy roles(and gays, as well), is exactly the same reason why black people played comedy roles(and still do), in many different movies and other assorted media:
the reasoning behind this, is to gently ease a change in the public opinion, about certain kinds of people. i've noticed this before, many years ago, and i've been watching it ever since. the best way to ease something "new" into a vast culture/society, is to attract that culture/society to it, in a way that appeals to them. it worked with black people(and is still working), in regards to interracial sex becoming more acceptable in society; AND serious black actors and actresses letting white people know that "there's nothing to fear, they're just like us, and they're great in a vast many ways". and that's good. i've said before, that things have to GRADUALLY be introduced for the masses to accept it(in a "civilized" society, anyway). it is a slow thing, but with more POSITIVE influence, an oppressed group can easier assimilate into society.
which is why i really take issue with the statement "all men are oppressors". but i think i've repeated that enough, no?
|
|
meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 11:54 PM |
|
|
I think the sooner people realize that the feminist movement has never and does not accuse all men of being oppressors, or rapists, or monsters, the sooner we can move on.
But by refusing to believe that there is still oppression 'out there' just prolongs the agony.
As we have all said ad nauseam now, a few rotten apples spoil the barrel.
People need to stop harking back at a few radical feminists how have caused a lot of hatred. Just like we accept that not all Iranians want to bomb America, or all Indian men like to gang rape young girls.
You need to listen to the facts and not take them personally.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 11:57 PM |
|
Edited by xerox at 00:00, 19 Jul 2014.
|
Men aren't inherently oppressors, but the male gender role (which is what feminists criticize) is oppressive. Both to them and to women. It's important to keep in my mind that men are also being oppressed due to gender roles. The whole "manliness" norm is incredibly restricting for a lot of men and creates a lot of inequality problems, like men being more likely to get into fights.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 19, 2014 12:01 AM |
|
Edited by fred79 at 00:03, 19 Jul 2014.
|
meroe, i was told by people here that, "because i am a male, i am an oppressor." no one supporting feminism, until now, with you, told me any differently.
now, is this, or is this NOT, what feminists believe? and please post some links to back up any claims.
at this point, every female that i don't know, that i run into in real life, i'm going to ask if they are a feminist, and if they say "yes", i'm going to ask them that same question:
is it TRUE that feminists believe that, in any way, shape of form, ALL men oppress women, merely by being a male?
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted July 19, 2014 12:02 AM |
|
|
On the contrary I think a lot of women oppress other women. Especially when it's about appearance and the way you act. Women will be very quick to tell each other to put on some make-up, if they look a bit washed up. Women can be very cold and callous to each other as well, I'm told.
Also, I think it's sexist to say women like bad men. Sure, some do, but I think generally people just like pro-active and fun people. And what you may perceive as bad people, strangers may perceive as strong and/ or proactive people. Either way, you seem like a big people person, fred. Not everyone is as friendly with everyone as you make it seem, I think. Like, in an ideal society, everyone should be able to freely socialise with everyone and we all love each other huggy buggy much. I advocate people leaving each other alone.
EDIT: Please, fred, you're not an oppressor because you're a man. It's the slaves in your cellar that make you an oppressor.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 19, 2014 12:04 AM |
|
Edited by fred79 at 00:05, 19 Jul 2014.
|
@ dagoth: i was referring to most females that i have come in contact with. of course not all of them have been like that. 
"slaves in my cellar"...
 i don't even HAVE a cellar.
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 19, 2014 12:07 AM |
|
Edited by xerox at 00:09, 19 Jul 2014.
|
Quote:
is it TRUE that feminists believe that, in any way, shape of form, ALL men oppress women, merely by being a male?
Some do, some don't. I mean it's not like feminists are an army of Borg that all collectively share the exact same ideas and goals. I find myself disagreeing with other feminists all the time on issues like the contraproductive "man hate" rhetoric (which we've seen the result of in this thread, turning people against feminism) and gender quotas.
But to sum it up:
No, all men being oppressors is not a view shared by all feminists.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 19, 2014 12:19 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 00:21, 19 Jul 2014.
|
Quote:
I have a question for people at HC: What do you think of people that walk up to girls to ask their number, e-mail or facebook outside of bars and outside of parties or otherwise social gatherings?
I think they're slimy creeps.
I think if you are not a jerk, these things sort of handle themselves. Most of the time, it is quite easy to figure out if a woman will be irritated or not when you approach her by instant eye contact and if you get to misunderstand the signals in those first few seconds, she will make sure you get it right in the following few. They are not soft-hearted about refusing strangers. So, as long as you don't insist on sticking around and get persistent about your intentions when you face rejection, it's no big deal. Some people meet like that and they get married a year later.
Quote:
I think the sooner people realize that the feminist movement has never and does not accuse all men of being oppressors, or rapists, or monsters, the sooner we can move on.
Exactly, I have been around many feminists especially during collage and I also read books and many articles written by them and I've never heard any of them say something as "all men are oppressors by being male." I also haven't heard anyone using such an argument in this thread, so, it's a straw man at best. The closest thing to it is Xerox's heteronormativity talk which does not mean "all men are oppressors" at all. It is a different concept anyway and does not reflect mainstream feminism.
|
|
meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
|
|
posted July 19, 2014 12:25 AM |
|
Edited by meroe at 00:27, 19 Jul 2014.
|
Fred ..... NO. All women do not believe all men are oppressors.
However, all woman have suffered oppression on a daily basic. Mostly barely recognized, often especially by those perpetrating it. Oppression can be so subtle Fred, especially in Western society. And just because it often cannot be seen, like oxygen, does not mean it isn't there.
A couple of women born into royalty, does not equate equal opportunities. It simply means that in those countries their fathers or maybe grandfathers challenged the rules of primogeniture. Its the reason why Sweden will eventually have a Queen and not her younger brother as King. That is exactly what happened to Elizabeth II. And its the reason why Spain has a new King and not a Queen, even though he was born years after his older sisters.
So to answer your question ... No. We do not. I have never looked at a man and thought to myself, "you damn oppressor", even if he has been a complete pig.
However, I have experienced sexism and sexist oppression all my life. From not being allowed to be a choir girl, because the priest only had choir boys. To being brought up in religion that attempted to brainwash me into believing that just because of the accident of me being born a girl, I carried within me the Devil and was responsible for the sins of Eve. To having the option of studying technical drawing and architecture at school taken away from me on the day the class was supposed to start, because due to the lack of funding it was decided only the boys would get to do it. Not to mention recently being looked over for a promotion (that should have been a shoe in, as it was pretty much guaranteed upon taking the temp post) because - and my boss told me honestly, as a women he was frightened that I would eventually get pregnant and as its a small company he couldn't afford the maternity salary. So it was easier for him to keep me on as a temporary contract, but don't take it personally. How should I take it? It isn't a frickin promotion is it?
These are just a few examples, there are more. Treatment at work, guys believing that if a woman has a bust that somehow its public domain and that shouting out "show us your tits" from cars, from bars, from the street is 'funny', or 'its just a laugh love, get a sense of humor'. Or even being accosted on the streets and groped. "Don't take it wrong love, but I couldn't help myself". Like that is okay ????? 'Just high jinks darling'.
Even now girls are still brought up to always "look nice", "never speak out of turn", "always be nice, people don't like a mouthy girl", "don't be too ambitious". "Why would you want to be a doctor and do all that studying when you can be a nice little nurse".
Its more prevalent than you realize. That being said, it doesn't make you a bad guy. But to deny oppression would be a bad thing.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
|
|
meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
|
|
posted July 19, 2014 12:40 AM |
|
Edited by meroe at 00:41, 19 Jul 2014.
|
fred79 said:
meroe, i was told by people here that, "because i am a male, i am an oppressor." no one supporting feminism, until now, with you, told me any differently.
now, is this, or is this NOT, what feminists believe? and please post some links to back up any claims.
at this point, every female that i don't know, that i run into in real life, i'm going to ask if they are a feminist, and if they say "yes", i'm going to ask them that same question:
is it TRUE that feminists believe that, in any way, shape of form, ALL men oppress women, merely by being a male?
I just wanted to add this. You asked me if all feminists believe men to be oppressors. I said no. You need to remember that most feminists are women who are married/have children. No they are not rampant man-hating, birkenstock-wearing, hefty vegetarian dykes that sexist men have loved to portray as being 'feminist'. (Can you see how sexist and oppressive that attitude is?).
Its like this. Lets take Saudi Arabia for a moment. No human rights and a massive patriarchy and oppression towards their women. We all know that woman cannot leave the house, women must be covered up, woman have no rights - full stop. Men are legally allowed to beat their wives. According to Islamic law - Shariah, men can divorce their wives by repeating "I divorce you" three times. However, women must seek the approval of a a Shariah court (who are all male btw) to petition for a divorce and her reasons have to be substantial.
So yeah we know all about this. However, as a sensible woman I know there are many Saudi men out there who would never, ever treat their women this way. It horrifies them. And its often thanks to those reasonable men that women's suffrage get a tentative foothold in middle eastern society. Ye Gods, they have so few avenues available to them as it is, they need all the help they can get.
I hope this clears things up for you a little. Just because you are man does not make you an oppressor. Its actions that do that.
I've gone off on a tangent again. Ack.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 19, 2014 03:56 PM |
|
Edited by fred79 at 16:10, 19 Jul 2014.
|
artu said:
I also haven't heard anyone using such an argument in this thread, so, it's a straw man at best. The closest thing to it is Xerox's heteronormativity talk which does not mean "all men are oppressors" at all.
i'm going to bypass our little agreement temporarily, artu, just to AGAIN explain myself to you.
"straw man", huh? what i was referring to, was posted in the "really sickens" thread:
Adrius said:
You don't reach equality by just saying "we're equal" and holding that view, as a man it requires giving room, sacrificing power and constantly deconstructing your own genderrole.. and even if you do that it still won't make you less of an oppressor because you're still in a position of power for as long as you're a man in a man's world. Women won't stop being oppressed and we won't stop being oppressors until the patriarchy is destroyed. It sucks but that's reality.
the feminists alluded to the fact that it's a subtle oppression, but it's still an oppression. which is why i took issue with it.
|
| |
|
|
