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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted September 15, 2015 12:14 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Both systems have a fixed set of skills available to you based on your hero class, with a pre-determined max level you can get to based on your hero class, and making you pick your skill order yourself. That, for me, is the core shared by these two systems, and that, for me, is a major issue.
I agree with this 100%. Though skillpizza may look different from the skill "tree" in H6, its core is the same. You are limited by a level cap, you are limited by skills per class, and randomness that was implemented still has those limitations.
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 15, 2015 12:54 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Well that is your opinion, I beg to disagree. Both systems have a fixed set of skills available to you based on your hero class,
The factors that determined what skills you could pick in H6 were A) your faction (which chose your magic schools) and B) his focus on Might and magic. Basically it was not the class (be it Archon, Shaman or Priest) the only difference was in magic schools, which is not a restriction by class but faction. Now have a look at the 3 classes of each faction's Might or Magic heroes. Yes they are limited in what to chose, but this makes them unique, and the variety into the game. Not all heroes should have access to all skills. Not all heroes have to be usefull as main heroes. This is the case for most RPGs for the simple fact that this outlines their usefulness and individuality. That is why most games restrict what class can use what ability or weapon. You want full freedom? H6 was full freedom! How it ended up? We all know.
alcibiades said:
with a pre-determined max level you can get to based on your hero class,
The max number of skills was always limited in one way or another
based on the number of skill slots. So What that you can't have a level 100 hero now? The huge impact of the Hero is still one of the biggest problems of the game. This at least somehow limits it.
alcibiades said:
and making you pick your skill order yourself.
A) you don't have to. The random system IS in the game. And don't even think about call it just an option. So are sim-turns. And as is the case of them, whoever plays MP without them has only himself to blame. If you play SP with free-pick you have only yourself to blame. You have a built in option to make the game work how you like.
B) If I vaguely remember, you were one of the very vocal people who disliked the randomness of the H5 system, but you saw what freedom does to a game. If I may quote one of my favorite critics "A game that allows, everything focuses or nothing."
alcibiades said:
Obviously there are vast differences also - no longer spells tied into skill system, no longer level-restrictions on which point you can learn what skill, and certainly that is a step in the right direction. But on the fundamental level outlined above, these systems go against what I like in the series.
In the end you agree that the system lacks "core characteristics" of the H6 system, but still you call it nothing more then an update obvious that the system has more incommon with H5, or even H3, with its N-A-E ranks, perks, General bonuses specializations of individual skills.
You may dislike it, that is your right, but please dislike it for what it is, not for what you brand it as.
And this goes for the whole game.
H7 lack almost all of H6 core and unique features. It is just the dress worn by a very, very different girl.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 15, 2015 01:08 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 13:12, 15 Sep 2015.
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I don`t know what`s the fuss with AK.
If you are a magic caster it is obvious you will specialize in two schools so you will get all the spells of your schools no matter what.
It is only limiting if you are might class and want to get the level 4 spell. I don`t see this as a problem at all. Might classes are stronger in general and that`s their "nerf". Besides I am sure they will do well with buffs which are not level 4...
Town level
When I designed my map for heroes VI and discussed it with JJ he said it is lame when there are no town levels and I agreed because if the map was rich enough you can build champions week 1. Thanks god I would not have to balance that again in heroes VII.
I like town levels but I don`t like the fact that powerful elites that can be used in hardcore creeping come at level 12 so can`t be built in first week.
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted September 15, 2015 01:13 PM |
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Edited by 3lion at 13:15, 15 Sep 2015.
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alcibiades said:
But on the fundamental level outlined above, these systems go against what I like in the series.
What you like in the series?
H3 - 16 classes, 28 skills, 0 abilities, class based restrictions.
H4 - 48 classes, 36 skills, 0 abilities, primary/secondary skill restrictions
H5 - 6 classes, 19 skills, 144 abilities, skill based restrictions (i.e. skill synergy).
H6 - 12 classes, 50+ skills and activated abilities, class based restrictions.
H7 - 36 classes, 23 skills, 161 abilities, class based restrictions.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted September 15, 2015 03:58 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 16:25, 15 Sep 2015.
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I tend to see things as a whole rather than focus on specific things. All I really care about are strategic options and builds, along with a stable base with little bugs and playing a multiplayer game without crashing or getting kicked out. Whatever new stuff they're making, I'm willing to try it out!
Anyways. Details :
Fixed skill wheel for heroes : I disagree with that. It's a limitation to give the impression of a build when we could build our own pizza wheel ourselves.
Pizza wheel lvl up : I like that part. It's a nice way to implement the tech tree.
Artificial intelligence : Couldn't care less. Real challenge can only be found against other humans anyways. It's why a stable multiplayer with a good enough launch for a big enough player base is more important. Playing against AI is so grand pa!
Spells not tied to skills : This is a balance aspect, thus cannot be judged without the context, which is the rest of the game. Insignificant detail to me.
Graphics and town screens : They look nice enough. And it's all I ask. People on this board seems to have some fixation on town screens lol.
Flanking : Great! I love it! Why the hell would someone not like a new strategic option?
Ashan storyline : When I want a good story line, I watch a good movie or read a book. When a game has an average story, It passes my benchmark, and when it's above average, it's more than I was expecting from a game lol. Couldn't care less about that.
Creature abilities : I admit I wish they were a bit more extravagant. I also wish we could specialize our units in two different ways rather than just one. Meh.
Bugs : If only Ubisoft could fix their bugs as quickly as Blizzard does. It's obvious there's gonna be tons of them so I'm gonna wait at least a month to buy the game. Maybe buy it at Christmas so I don't have to pay 60 $ for this overpriced game.
Factions : More factions. More! I'm gonna miss those Sanctuary. Such an innovative faction! Gonna miss the devils as well. People voted devils off because they don't know how to properly fight the devils. Cheesy voting.
Ressources : Was always a needless amount that most people considers "strategic" . I'm glad there aren't as many ressources as in Heroes 3 or whatever, because I don't want to waste time on a really simple, 10 year old "strategic" concept.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 15, 2015 04:14 PM |
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I must have missed the strategic part and the option part with flanking. Silly me.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 15, 2015 04:39 PM |
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Kayna said:
Gonna miss the devils as well. People voted devils off because they don't know how to properly fight the devils.
I think you will find that most people voted against Inferno because their role as a plot vehicle has been pretty much the same through several titles. There's an Eclipse and the whole world will burn, so everyone pretty much goes against Inferno. They're also fairly one-dimensional in their motives.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 15, 2015 04:59 PM |
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Kayna said:
Flanking : Great! I love it! Why the hell would someone not like a new strategic option?
Ressources : Was always a needless amount that most people considers "strategic" . I'm glad there aren't as many ressources as in Heroes 3 or whatever, because I don't want to waste time on a really simple, 10 year old "strategic" concept.
So you are saying that it is good that a unit has to go behind a enemy unit to deal extra damage, then the enemy unit does the same, repeating all this cycle?
As for resources, H7 has as many as others do (besides H6), just different names.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted September 15, 2015 05:02 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 17:41, 15 Sep 2015.
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Well, of course many people voted and people had different reasons to do so, but I'm still pretty sure that a good chunk of voters voted the Devils off because they're hard to play with and they're really annoying when they gate imps next to their shooters lol.
The signs are there. Most people aren't really good at this game. Most play against the AI rather than other humans. Most cannot handle the randomness of a battle and stick to haven or undead because they're the easiest to play. Those people are simply not good enough to play devil because devils have very weak creatures defensively, and they hate playing against such an intelligent race with a really annoying gating.
If I had to pull a random number out of my ass and guess, I'd say 25 % of the people that voted against Devil just didn't want to deal with their gating cheese. ha. 50 % probably voted elves because pointy ears. Why have a race in the game you can't play properly with anyways and is always a snow when fighting against?
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted September 15, 2015 05:07 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
So you are saying that it is good that a unit has to go behind a enemy unit to deal extra damage, then the enemy unit does the same, repeating all this cycle?
I'm sure it's going to be more strategic than that! Maybe you can bait a really tough unit foward with the rest of your army a bit behind, so your tough and 2x2 unit takes a couple of back stabs, then you can back stab all those that went behind. Or maybe you can increase the movement and speed of your army to the point where you can wait, backstab an enemy, then retreat the next round? Either way I'm gonna play elf when I buy the game, pretty sure ha.
You can also form a line and place tough units on the sides to avoid weaker units of being flanked. Just pulling some out of my head, I'm sure there's gonna be even more stuff to do with flanking once I get my hands on the game.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 15, 2015 05:14 PM |
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Maurice said:
Kayna said:
Gonna miss the devils as well. People voted devils off because they don't know how to properly fight the devils.
I think you will find that most people voted against Inferno because their role as a plot vehicle has been pretty much the same through several titles. There's an Eclipse and the whole world will burn, so everyone pretty much goes against Inferno. They're also fairly one-dimensional in their motives.
Don't you think the choice was actually too hard to make?
I mean, after 50 shades of purple and Sylvan's victory voting for Dungeon seemed flirting with disaster.
Anyway we'd have recycled models for Inferno too, they prepared the vote to recycle as much as they could.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted September 15, 2015 05:42 PM |
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Personally I didn't vote for inferno because they are most boring faction visually and storywise. I grow tired of their fire and brimstone tumorlike cities and dull red flesh copies of units. Their lore has bigger holes in it then canoe shot with cannon.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted September 15, 2015 05:52 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
So you are saying that it is good that a unit has to go behind a enemy unit to deal extra damage, then the enemy unit does the same, repeating all this cycle?
I would prefer everyone spamming the defend button til someone get tired and leave the battle, I'm a pacifist.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 15, 2015 05:55 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 17:55, 15 Sep 2015.
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@dark-whisperer
I find you could say the same about sex dungeon though, BDSM elves and purple bulls, there is no way that could be wrong.
And don't get me started about Raelag...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 15, 2015 06:22 PM |
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Oh look! A CE only map!
snow off 
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted September 15, 2015 06:29 PM |
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Edited by jhb at 18:29, 15 Sep 2015.
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wasn't Solmyr's map on deluxe too?
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted September 15, 2015 06:29 PM |
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natalka said:
I don`t know what`s the fuss with AK.
If you are a magic caster it is obvious you will specialize in two schools so you will get all the spells of your schools no matter what.
as you have less difficulty to finally learn every spells (cappped in sort of), you won t select your magic school depending of spells. Instead of that, you ll select your school depending on which school have the lower restrictions (cause it gives you stronger abilities).
if you wanna get faster your main abilities... for example, if your hero has three magic school, i bet third school will be ignored.
Definetly, AK has been added too late. To me, it proofs they have not thougths on the system when they created the magic schools.
Most genrally, it s a none sense. Why do you learn all spells with only two magic skills ? These other schools have any relation between them.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 15, 2015 06:30 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Oh look! A CE only map!
snow off
Yeah!
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted September 15, 2015 06:30 PM |
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jhb said:
wasn't Solmyr's map on deluxe too?
He is.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted September 15, 2015 06:39 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Oh look! A CE only map!
snow off
Why do you act as if this is something new? We know this since preorder options were presented.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
