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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 18, 2015 04:58 PM |
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@ Stevie
It's really quite a strange experience to see how far we were apart not a year ago and how similar our thoughts are now.
Blaming Erwan, though... I don't know. He's not in any way responsible for the way the games turn out; he is no designer. Sure, he's the master mind behind "Ashan", but he doesn't interfere in the daily business of creating the games.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 18, 2015 05:16 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Blaming Erwan, though... I don't know. He's not in any way responsible for the way the games turn out; he is no designer. Sure, he's the master mind behind "Ashan", but he doesn't interfere in the daily business of creating the games.
I disagree lol
Black Hole said:
BH had nothing to do with VIP fan feedback directly. It was UBI that decided. And UBI never wanted your feedback. When they asked your opinion on a specific item, it was always already too late to make the changes you asked for. Just two simple examples:
1 - Less resources: It was a UBI decision from the very beginning, and no one could change it. They presented the idea to you through the VIP forums, but they never wanted to change the design. Exactly the opposite: they wanted to "convert you", to make you get used to the idea over time, and then "convert" your mates through your fansites.
2 - Sanctuary lineup: When the Sanctuary creatures were presented to you and you complained about the many boring human female characters, all of them was modeled and animated already. It would have been a lot of money and time to change them. And while it would have been easy to show the concepts to you months before, Erwan had a vision, and didn't really care about your opinion.
Just look back: whatever you guys said was ignored completely.
Quantomas said:
When the producer changed, a big mistake IMHO because Fabrice had gained the experience from H5 and Erwan could have been brought on as an art director to create a strong team, everything changed. I personally think to hire a B RTS developer to do the world's most complex TBS was a big mistake. The gap between the genres is probably not as big as to have the developer of a dance game do a RTS, but still these are different worlds.
There were many chances for the producer of H6 to get me on board but apparently they just chose the stance that their contractor will do it. I always felt that this is totally foolhardy to have H6 developed by an unproven developer (their previous titles were at best B) and not having a reasonable control of the production process. Normally you need a good producer, an excellent lead programmer and for a TBS of this complexity a world class AI programmer. The worst thing for me is really to see that my professional assessment of the situation has been proven entirely correct. It's like a bizarre joke, to have been right and see a completely undesirable result for all come to pass.
Quantomas said:
Fabrice had the helm until summer 2008, that's a bit more than half a year past the release of TotE. We were technically just getting ready to release the 3.2 patch with the upgraded AI. Fabrice mentioned this in his last official post on the Ubisoft board, introducing Erwan and saying that the patching process is not at its end and that an important upgrade will follow.
Erwan on the other hand completely ignored what we had. Technically, all it required was an Ok and to set the patching process in motion. To his defense it can be said, that things might have been a bit more complicated from his point of view, because Ubisoft was about to contract Black Hole instead of Nival. But by no means should that have been an obstacle that couldn't have been overcome. What we had back then was practically the same AI that was released at the beginning of this year, and we could have merged it with the 3.1 sources proper and would have had a far superior patch without the omissions from 3.1. If we could have had this release in 2008 we would have made this game to fly to WOG heights!
You can imagine that the producer for the next iteration of a franchise wouldn't want to put work into making the work of his predecessor shine, because this would raise the bar for his own work and diminish his success. But this is exactly the wrong way of thinking, because the overall success of the franchise reflects on each iteration. Yes, it would have raised the bar, but that's good, and even in the case H6 would have ended up in the same shape as it is in now, the improvements in its predecessor would have inspired confidence. It is the same as with this wretched argument that Heroes V had as many bugs as H6. This convinces nobody and sounds like a lame excuse for foot dragging that diminishes the franchise. You have to say that this state is unacceptable and major bugs have to be fixed as soon as possible. Full stop.
Erwin said:
Being creative director means a lot of things. It means you're totally related to everything that's part of the content and experience of the games, so it's obviously art, and music, and audio, and game design, and story, the lore of the universe.
Julian Benson said:
One of the people responsible for building this new Might & Magic is brand director Erwan Le Breton. He’s a veteran: having worked as a producer on the last four Might & Magic games. HIs work on Heroes VI began with a team brainstorm: what would the perfect Might and Magic game include? Their conclusions: more levels of strategy, an RPG reputation system like the one in Bioware’s games, they wanted to have some of the persistent elements they were seeing in MMOs, like an always connected community of adventurers.
Players hated it.
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted October 18, 2015 05:42 PM |
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Edited by 3lion at 17:48, 18 Oct 2015.
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Wow.. It seems that Erwan is such a jerk incompetent project manager
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 18, 2015 06:10 PM |
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Bioware? F*** off with that s***.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 18, 2015 06:11 PM |
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verriker said:
I disagree lol
Black Hole said:
1 - Less resources: It was a UBI decision from the very beginning, and no one could change it. They presented the idea to you through the VIP forums, but they never wanted to change the design. Exactly the opposite: they wanted to "convert you", to make you get used to the idea over time, and then "convert" your mates through your fansites.
2 - Sanctuary lineup: Erwan had a vision, and didn't really care about your opinion.
I added a couple of bold prints. This is minor stuff; it comes from a developer that were out of their depths. As with all Ubisoft games, there are a couple of core ideas that Ubisoft brings in - that's not different from having 7 magic schools. The resource idea was, with less resources they would be more contested - that was the Ubisoft part. To assess the impact on the game that has in addition, is the task of the designer, and BH failed to do that - it's that simple. And Sanctuary lineup... man, if that had been the biggest problem of the game ...
verriker said:
Quantomas said:
There were many chances for the producer of H6 to get me on board but apparently they just chose the stance that their contractor will do it.
I don't see the relevance of that. On the contrary - Ubisoft wasn't game designer.
Rest of Q's quotes are also not relevant with a view on Erwan's influence on the actual game design.
verriker said:
Erwin said:
Being creative director means a lot of things. It means you're totally related to everything that's part of the content and experience of the games, so it's obviously art, and music, and audio, and game design, and story, the lore of the universe.
Ah, come on, verriker, that's a typical non-statement. It actually says nothing at all.
Julian Benson said:
One of the people responsible for building this new Might & Magic is brand director Erwan Le Breton. He’s a veteran: having worked as a producer on the last four Might & Magic games. HIs work on Heroes VI began with a team brainstorm: what would the perfect Might and Magic game include? Their conclusions: more levels of strategy, an RPG reputation system like the one in Bioware’s games, they wanted to have some of the persistent elements they were seeing in MMOs, like an always connected community of adventurers.
Players hated it.
And again, that has nothing to do with game dsigns - except that the reputaion system became part of the game - and actually it was one of the better parts. Naming a couple of general design goals and ideas has nothing to do with the actual way they are implemented into the game.
You are making Erwan a lot more important than he actually is for the final look of the game. Sure, there will be a couple of ideas, but in the end, it's not decisive for how the game will actually look when it's "finished".
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 18, 2015 06:14 PM |
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not going to get into quote wars with you mate, the fact is Erwin is the nominal leader of the franchise and is directly or indirectly responsible for however it is currently turning out lol
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 18, 2015 06:31 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:35, 18 Oct 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
@ Stevie
It's really quite a strange experience to see how far we were apart not a year ago and how similar our thoughts are now.
No use romanticizing it. Only few people are capable of assessing a situation correctly and ever fewer have a progressive, outside the box way of thinking. Fact is, my shortcoming back then was my being yet inexperienced. But in time the gap filled, knowledge increased especially from being all out on H7's development, fan day / other VIP's and feeling things on my own skin, and I just naturally arrived at the same conclusions as you. I guess you can call that further confirmation that such a position is sound or at least have some semblance of soundness, even if most people don't get it or become opposed for one reason or another (your personality had something to do with that, I'll have to admit; also your rather cryptic writing style sometimes, unfortunately for the worse).
JollyJoker said:
Blaming Erwan, though... I don't know. He's not in any way responsible for the way the games turn out; he is no designer. Sure, he's the master mind behind "Ashan", but he doesn't interfere in the daily business of creating the games.
Not denying that everyone has his/her fair share of blame for their work in their own field, but who's the one laying down the foundation and guidelines on which the game is built and then overseeing the entire production if not Erwan? A matey on a ship raising a sail halfway or another not cleaning the deck properly can only influence a bad outcome but not in the least be as decisive as the Captain sailing his ship towards stormy weather or into shallow waters filled with rocks. If you think that the parallel is not precise, then it might be that you know something which we don't, and given you're a VIP I'm certain that's possible, and I'm also certain that we won't be able to find out. But that's what I operate on at the moment, and that's the conclusion that appears most accurate.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted October 18, 2015 06:35 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Blaming Erwan, though... I don't know. He's not in any way responsible for the way the games turn out; he is no designer. Sure, he's the master mind behind "Ashan", but he doesn't interfere in the daily business of creating the games.
Oh, he is responsible, all right. It is just that there are likely more people that were involved for all those mistakes, just that Erwan shows his face in the public, smiling and laughing at us.
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Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 18, 2015 06:44 PM |
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You are both right - the problem is, that things wouldn't automaticaly take a turn for the better if Erwan was sacked.
Again - it's not his fault that the games turn out lacking. It IS his fault that he hired the people he hired, true, but that's it. It's STILL a problem to find a dev that would do a GREAT game.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 18, 2015 06:58 PM |
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You don't HAVE to sack Le Breton to get a subpar Heroes game.
But it helps.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 18, 2015 07:00 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You are both right - the problem is, that things wouldn't automaticaly take a turn for the better if Erwan was sacked.
Not sure I agree with this asesment, but what do I know in the end. On the other hand, things can't possibly get much worse if he's sacked, so ... 
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What will happen now?
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vitirr
Known Hero
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posted October 18, 2015 07:08 PM |
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Nevertheless reading JJ saying "you are both righ..." was worth it 
Just kidding of course 
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted October 18, 2015 07:15 PM |
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It is incredibly difficult to make a new Heroes game. Whatever Ubisoft or someone else does is usually highly criticised, as it is different from previous Heroes games or too similar to them.
As regards H6, it was definitely not a perfect game with many mistakes in, Ubisoft trying to change some features went maybe too far. But except that, some decisions and news were very exciting and many people including me (although you may not believe it) finally enjoyed this game.
You should have to accept the fact that Heroes games are evolving. You may keep playing H3 or H5 if you are not able to accept that but there must be some changes in Heroes. For example the skill system. The H5 one was amazing, but this game is NOT h5. Devs are coming with new ideas. Give them chance and they might surprise you.
I am also starting to have a feeling that Shadow council website and open developing process gives incredible (and not fair) amount of opportunities how to criticise devs. It is clear that they will never be able to do the game exactly as anyone of us imagines. In every game are some aspects you would change.But this does not give you the right to blame devs for whole game. They put effort to it (again you may disagree but through many steps like votes, streams, rlich and vampire redesign or many other minor things fans requested, you should see that they are doing their best to give you a very good game.)
I personally believe a lot in this game and to be honest, I have not seen many studios trying to do what fans wish so much.
I would like to ask all of you to think about it, a¯ least for a while, nothing more.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 18, 2015 07:43 PM |
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Hermes said:
PandaTar said:
If it's like 5 people, they shouldn't listen to indeed. But it's not like did either. If they didn't, why was not the game any better then?
No, but that exactly what they did.
See, they could:
1. Axe free Axeoth campaigns
2. Not redesign vampire and lich(most steam players wouldn't know any better)
3. Not do any town screen, since many steam players don't care about them at all
4. Forget about Romero and just do some random edgy music most younger players would like
5. Not to SC or any votes, once again most steam players would not know any better
6. Not change half of the H6 features - 3 resources, free skilling - no skill wheel and no random skills, no modding, no RMG, no sim turns, etc.
7. Not employ people to answer (sometimes stupid) questions here and just release the game and forget.
8. Not do any interviews with JVC etc.
Save all the cash from above $$$
And :
8. Lower price
9. Animate cutscenes
10. Add boobs/FPS mode and hats, yea, steam loves hats.
Profit. Seriously the game would be 10/10 now.
Please tell me you don't get upset when (not if) people bash you, because I would honestly find more difficult to lower someone standards below that. Good God
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 18, 2015 07:43 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 19:45, 18 Oct 2015.
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Antalyan, I'm happy to think about such things, but respectfully you would need to offer up more food for thought than just repeating Ubisoft's own platitudes that game development is hard and the game has potential in so many words lol
in my opinion the whole Shadow Council facade was cynical from the beginning, simply an extension of the practice quoted above that Black Hole described for Heroes 6 lol
Black Hole said:
BH had nothing to do with VIP fan feedback directly. It was UBI that decided. And UBI never wanted your feedback. When they asked your opinion on a specific item, it was always already too late to make the changes you asked for. Just two simple examples:
1 - Less resources: It was a UBI decision from the very beginning, and no one could change it. They presented the idea to you through the VIP forums, but they never wanted to change the design. Exactly the opposite: they wanted to "convert you", to make you get used to the idea over time, and then "convert" your mates through your fansites.
2 - Sanctuary lineup: When the Sanctuary creatures were presented to you and you complained about the many boring human female characters, all of them was modeled and animated already. It would have been a lot of money and time to change them. And while it would have been easy to show the concepts to you months before, Erwan had a vision, and didn't really care about your opinion.
Just look back: whatever you guys said was ignored completely.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 18, 2015 08:44 PM |
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vitirr said:
Nevertheless reading JJ saying "you are both righ..." was worth it
Just kidding of course
Hey man, in case you didn't know, if you see a text on the front page under the Heroes Community logo that says "You got 1 message" or something, that's not an ad, that's a HCM. Maybe you're not that familiar with things around here since you hang out more on Torredemarfil. Anyway, glad to see you checking here sometimes, though I wish you talked more. Send Lepas my regards.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted October 18, 2015 08:52 PM |
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verriker said:
in my opinion the whole Shadow Council facade was cynical from the beginning
Ubisoft is quite apt at using - to invoke a term from Orwells 1984 - Doublespeak. In his novel the "Ministry of Peace" deals with warfare, for example. Here are a few I could remember on the fly from H7. I'm sure people remember a lot more:
"Best of Heroes"
"With the fans"
"For the fans"
"Spent months and months to develop the magic H7 recipe"
"The game was highly tested for several months"
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 18, 2015 08:57 PM |
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Well, not really. Given their behavior with H7 they do care to some extent. Adding more resources would mean basically undoing all the mapmaking work they had done up to that point and like remaking sanctuary creatures, it would have needed money that (given how BH ended up) they didnt have. Blaming Erwan for selecting that lineup with similar creatures is fair (which I think was the intention of that comment) Blaming him for not changing.the lineup/resources afterwards isnt
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vitirr
Known Hero
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posted October 18, 2015 08:59 PM |
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Edited by vitirr at 21:02, 18 Oct 2015.
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 Stevie
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 18, 2015 09:05 PM |
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Antalyan said:
As regards H6, it was definitely not a perfect game with many mistakes in, Ubisoft trying to change some features went maybe too far. But except that, some decisions and news were very exciting and many people including me (although you may not believe it) finally enjoyed this game.
You should have to accept the fact that Heroes games are evolving. You may keep playing H3 or H5 if you are not able to accept that but there must be some changes in Heroes. For example the skill system. The H5 one was amazing, but this game is NOT h5. Devs are coming with new ideas. Give them chance and they might surprise you.
Here you are partly coming to the core of the problem in h6 and h7. H6 implemented many features that hadn't existed before some with more and some with less success. The game felt like it was trying to move forward and evolve. It did make bad decisions that made the game too simple, but it had ideas/features that needed to be refined. It felt like devs really tried to make a great game regardless.
H7 on the other hand does the exact opposite, it tries to simplify the game to go for bigger masses. It takes features from past games without fixing or improving them, rather it actually managed to make them worse than in their original iteration. With every game you have more data to account for as in what is good, what is bad and what makes them good/bad and how it could be improved. For example h6 had h1-h5 as history while h7 had h1-h6 + Heroes Online/Kingdoms + DoC. Take battle-system, they simply copied it from h6 because it was easy.
I consider h5 as best system by far, followed by Heroes Online as both have way more depth and complexity. Now h6 actually did add two good things to combat; AoE-damage was determined by how much was hitting your unit(1,2,3 or 4 squares) and battle-field objects like mana-wells and such. The only good things h6 combat system had, are nowhere to be seen. It was simply downgrade. Flanking system? Again downgrade if you played Heroes Online let alone other games that have such system.
Governor system? Nice idea but lousy implementation. It has several problems actually. H4 solved leveling governors by having multiple heroes on battle-fields, h7 forces player to adventure with them to level while they are not really suited for that. Or get mentor for main hero which is 6 skill-points wasted from main hero if he can even get the ability. What's more is that the governor talents are completely spread out so you get ton of talents you don't want/need on the side. Not to mention most gov talents don't feel like they are worth the trouble it takes to level the governor. Not to mention a lot of gov heroes by specialization actually aren't gov heroes by class/skills which is again another absurd decision or oversight. And of course by latest patch those specializations got even more worthless with lower numbers. All in all it feels absolutely worthless system that is designed to give simple boost to early creeping which you don't need anyway. It's something to make game easier for new players who most likely don't understand to use it and it ends up helping more the experienced players who don't need the extra help. The governor system was way better in h4 in all its simplicity as it didn't have any real problems. Governor system is actually the only thing I feel the game tries to take to next step with, but in reality it needs good amount of changes done to make it feel like it actually improves the game.
Frankly h7 is littered with half done ideas and executions. It just doesn't shine anywhere and even worse it's a step back in many ways/directions compared to previous games. The money would have been way better spent on improving h6 or h5 with new expansion. The game just doesn't give any reason why one would play it over h5 or even h6 from my perspective. It doesn't even really feel like a new game with so much cannibalized from h6, more like some cheap copy that got some stuff added/changed. I get they tried to streamline the game for new players, but problem is that I feel like they just simplified it not understanding the difference
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
