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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted October 29, 2015 04:59 PM |
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Stevie said:
No, that's not it. He mistakes the absence of showcase potential and viewing value for lack of tactical depth. His idea of interesting is when battles are intense, flashy, fast paced, preferably with viewers jumping off their seats at the sight of the unexpected. Heroes is not that type of game. You build up your advantages slowly with each combat, each area explored, each artifact found and spell learned, and while that appears boring and tedious to an outside viewer, and even conclusively foreshadowing of a certain outcome, it is definitely challenging and fun for the players. A close example would be chess games, boring as hell for viewers, great fun for players.
It's challenging, but it's not a good multiplayer game. And it doesn't make the tactical battles good. It means you're beating AI using a lot of very, very esoteric knowledge of the game and its mechanics. It's a lot of memorization and puzzle solving, not really playing a strategy game.
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted October 29, 2015 05:21 PM |
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Edited by Aionb at 17:22, 29 Oct 2015.
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@ PROJ: you're funny as hell, all the time!
Elvin said:
Stevie said:
battles are intense, flashy, fast paced, preferably with viewers jumping off their seats at the sight of the unexpected.
H5 had that 
Time for that nice H5 map: "Questing for peace"  Remember?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 29, 2015 05:26 PM |
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PROJ said:
It's a lot of memorization and puzzle solving, not really playing a strategy game.
Strategy is puzzle solving, to find the optimal solution to the challenges posed before you.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2015 05:30 PM |
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 29, 2015 05:40 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 22:57, 29 Oct 2015.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 29, 2015 06:03 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 18:06, 29 Oct 2015.
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Didn’t TDL already put an end to this discussion in the Library?
TDL said:
HOMM is not a strategy game where players are given finite resources or even the same starting conditions and see where they end up at. From PROJ's views, I take it you are more attuned to RTS or MOBA style games (any kind of competitive gaming), poker or chess which differ so greatly from the TBS/RPG-esque way HOMM is handled.
From what I gather, I am fairly certain you'd say H5 duel mode had more in the way of strategy than H3, right? If that holds true, case in point, I'm done. There's no arguing with you, because the way you perceive 'strategy' is completely different to how 'HOMM' players perceive it. Both sides are further on correct by law of agreeing to disagree.
Genya Would you mind linking your meme? Thanks in advance.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2015 10:12 PM |
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Sorry for my absence.
Anyway, the game is a STRATEGY game, and the strategy part means, the purpose of the game is to win on the strategic level in order to avoid risky (that is, TIGHT) battles - the tactical level.
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ThatRedSarah
Famous Hero
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 30, 2015 10:41 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Anyway, the game is a STRATEGY game, and the strategy part means, the purpose of the game is to win on the strategic level in order to avoid risky (that is, TIGHT) battles - the tactical level.
I agree. To me Heroes has never been about the "epic final battle". It about the journey to the final battle. Which player can get the best artifacts, spells, get enough resources to build the necessary buildings in time and who can get all this done quickest and without loosing too many troops.
This all requires a lot of tactical planning and strategy and i think this pretty much separates serious players from the casual ones. And in the end the final battle is just the formality of showing how far the players have been able to progress. Like in poker when at the end players reveal their hand and the winner is determined accordingly. The "game" itself has been played before this phase.
Actually i kinda consider myself as a failure if the end battle turns into an epic and balanced clash. I should have prepared better. There must have been something that i could have done better...
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vitirr
Known Hero
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posted October 30, 2015 11:29 AM |
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Well multiplayer Heroes might not be about the final epic battle, but it certainly also isn't about any other battle against a human player. The multiplayer game is mainly about battling the AI better than your human opponent, usually based on the application of exploits that will allow you to win very hard encounters. And it is about creeping as fast as you can, to know very well what you can defeat and when, build your town the fastest possible, and never get caught with your pants down. So basically a single player game for the most part.
I don't say there is no strategy there, but as a multiplayer experience is quite mediocre, as basically there is very few interactions among human players, and it is basically like a single player game except that there is an opponent who actually knows what he's doing instead of the AI.
Don't get me wrong, I've also had my share of mp Heroes and had fun with it, but yet I have a critical view on it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 30, 2015 11:47 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:47, 30 Oct 2015.
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Mostly true. That said there are maps that allow for interaction between players earlier than they are comfortable with, or with ways to spy your opponent movement. That can change your whole game plan.
Problem with heroes games is that despite all the skill variety, the builds are fairly predictable. The one thing a manual skill system could help with is offer the right tools for the right situations so that you can respond to a change on plans. But it is nowhere near as fun as random and it is so very easy to get wrong. The last two dev teams got wrong more basic things than that.
Ideally heroes multiplayer should allow for interaction and adaptability rather than forced choices but that requires considerable hands-on experience to design.. So we end up playing a very narrow map list with specific standards to make up for the game's faults which is another form of restriction..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Pitlord
Known Hero
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posted October 30, 2015 10:58 PM |
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in how many months there will be a working multiplayer? or is multiplayer only a feature for the next add-on? 
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted October 31, 2015 12:20 AM |
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Edited by DIEGIS at 00:21, 31 Oct 2015.
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Pitlord said:
in how many months there will be a working multiplayer? or is multiplayer only a feature for the next add-on?
who knows? may be our kind and wise elvin will enlight us  ...although i doubt soon
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 31, 2015 07:43 AM |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 31, 2015 09:23 AM |
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I wouldn't know but keep making noise. The more urgent the team feels it is, the better.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 31, 2015 09:38 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 09:40, 31 Oct 2015.
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Too little too late if the team starts feeling urgent now. Not that it would do any good anyway, they're in way over their heads. The task's proven too big for them to handle.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted October 31, 2015 10:16 AM |
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Pitlord
Known Hero
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posted October 31, 2015 11:20 AM |
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Edited by Pitlord at 11:20, 31 Oct 2015.
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EnergyZ said:
Are you saying the next sequel (if it will ever come to that) will have a different dev studio (again)?
most likely ubi will try to find some cheaper developer studio in a 3rd world country for heroes 8
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted October 31, 2015 12:44 PM |
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Pitlord said:
EnergyZ said:
Are you saying the next sequel (if it will ever come to that) will have a different dev studio (again)?
most likely ubi will try to find some cheaper developer studio in a 3rd world country for heroes 8
Everyone assumes that Heroes 8 will be created. Currently, I have doubts about this. But, I still think that developer is not the problem as much as it is Ubi's M&M team.
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Mysterio
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 31, 2015 01:39 PM |
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The entire Heroes 7 seems like a last desperate cash grab from the franchise, Ubisoft further cemented themselves as inept in the recent developing games market. They keep blatantly insulting the homm fans with the whole co-developing shenanigans, RIP Heroes.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 31, 2015 02:07 PM |
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They can always fall back on their successful spin-offs...nevermind
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
