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gomaki
Shaper of Lore
Community Manager, Limbic Ent.
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posted November 05, 2015 11:04 AM |
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Edited by gomaki at 11:20, 05 Nov 2015.
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Morning all.
Ok good start I'll keep an eye on this topic. This is something that is certainly going to be discussed so all feedback is good. A complete overhaul of the skill system is simply not going to happen so I wouldn't even bother to include it in your scope of suggestion.
Having multiple options is certainly not to be ruled out but it's entirely down to development time at the end of the day, something I couldn't even put a number on.
The good news is that level cap altering is already there within the editor, which means that task isn't a very big deal, but now all I want to work out is how to correctly handle the skill points received in conjunction with this.
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted November 05, 2015 11:08 AM |
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Gooodmorning!!! 
Well, again, good to see such active interaction mate. And thanks for being so active. Truth be told, that if along with the choice of difficulty we can also have the choice of "Handicap" which can translate to different leveling and skill options it would be awesome.
I go yay for customization!!!! 
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted November 05, 2015 11:20 AM |
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Edited by malax83 at 11:38, 05 Nov 2015.
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Possible Options :
* Remove the restriction of 1 ability to level up your skill
* Decrease the number of skills to 7 + 1 :
- Remove two Expert Skills
- Switch one Master Skill to an Expert Skill
* smooth the experience curve
Bonus :
* Decrease the number of Racial perks => Balance & polishing (2 ability per level, only one can be chosen)
* Remove Arkane Knowledge (useless rule) introducing 2 spheres :
- Elementalist (Earth, Fire, Water, Air)
- Divine (Ligth, Dark, Prime)
When you re able to learn a master Earth spell, you can learn spells of the same sphere at the same level. But you can t learn a water spell.
* Add a decent rule of backstabbing
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 11:23 AM |
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Edited by Bitula at 11:32, 05 Nov 2015.
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I think removing the level cap and slowing down expereince gain as natalka recommended would be the best possible compromise. I for one wouldn't like to see the skill restrictions removed because that would take away the RP element. I would rather create more classes and heroes to compensate for this.
Edit: For example, instead, you could implement a class (say Bard) or a special hero, who is good at everything and can take more type of skills than others. His disadvantage would be that he cannot excel in anyithing particular
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted November 05, 2015 11:39 AM |
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Bitula said:
I think removing the level cap and slowing down expereince gain as natalka recommended would be the best possible compromise. I for one wouldn't like to see the skill restrictions removed because that would take away the RP element. I would rather create more classes and heroes to compensate for this.
Agreed. Base idea is to let the hero level up beyond level 30. However, it just means that they shouldn't get more skill points, because of that "god mode".
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 05, 2015 11:42 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:58, 05 Nov 2015.
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Ok the skill system cannot be redesigned. But we can change around skills per class, yes? And more importantly let the player decide which magic skills will be part of his skillwheel? Hero customization is a bad aspect of the game, with the magic restrictions in particular.
Edit: There are also too many skills that lack a master rank, that further reduces your build's viable options. I say keep the skills capped at tier 2 to the absolute minimum and increase the skills with a gm ability.. Atm classes do not have many viable builds. Ofc they will pick the 3 skills with gm.
Some skills should not have a cap at all. Like warfare that is crappy unless you max it and even then the effects are questionable.
Magic skills should not have a cap in magic classes.
Ideally, introducing some faction-themed abilities dispersed throughout the skillwheel would be fantastic.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted November 05, 2015 11:48 AM |
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Elvin said:
Ok the skill system cannot be redesigned.
If cap level doesn t depend on the amount of skills (so abilities), it s the end of brainstorming.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 12:58 PM |
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Elvin said:
Ideally, introducing some faction-themed abilities dispersed throughout the skillwheel would be fantastic.
you just described the racial skill. but instead of perks being here and there, you have all those perks under your racial slice. -.-
ok 8 perks cannot cover the whole wheel but still that's the idea.
btw since ranks give bonuses it would be a little off if we take them for free. maybe some extra skill points would do the trick. so we would have , lets say, 40 skill points (so you can get some other perks that require a point investment in the respective rank)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 01:30 PM |
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Elvin said:
Ok the skill system cannot be redesigned. But we can change around skills per class, yes? And more importantly let the player decide which magic skills will be part of his skillwheel? Hero customization is a bad aspect of the game, with the magic restrictions in particular.
I've been saying this since last Xmas when we got the first build with the skill wheel, I even offered them a 1000 € bet I could design a better system in no time - and look what good that did.
Looks like H6 all over the place again, patching the hell out of the game with major rebalancing and whatnot - you'd think people might learn from past experiences, but it just doesn't happen, it seems.
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gomaki
Shaper of Lore
Community Manager, Limbic Ent.
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posted November 05, 2015 01:32 PM |
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Elvin said:
Ok the skill system cannot be redesigned. But we can change around skills per class, yes? And more importantly let the player decide which magic skills will be part of his skillwheel? Hero customization is a bad aspect of the game, with the magic restrictions in particular.
So you're proposing to completely re pick what skills each heroes has the possibility to pick/randomly get depending on what option you choose. I mean it's possible for sure from a technical stand point, It would however require an entire re-work of all 60 (61 with Solmyr) heroes skills however. It would be an incredibly hard sale, however this is more something I would push when we start discussing how to make the heroes feel more unique.
For now maybe it's better that we just don't have a skill cap at all and if you eventually get high enough level then it's just a bonus to have more skills. Let me bring it up at work see if there is any immediate pros and cons and i'll try keep everyone informed on the thought process.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 05, 2015 01:39 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Elvin said:
Ideally, introducing some faction-themed abilities dispersed throughout the skillwheel would be fantastic.
you just described the racial skill.
Totally different. Racial abilities will ALWAYS be picked so you'll see them in every game. Dispersed abilities will depend on your build so there will be a variety every time.
Skill variety and replayability has taken the back seat in this game and I don't like it one bit. Restrictions everywhere telling you what to do, in skills, in town development, in magic. No actual freedom of choice, which should have been the cornerstone of a system designed to be manual.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted November 05, 2015 01:48 PM |
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Yes, and increasing player choices will, then, increase one's capability of creating strategies heuristically (many paths for a similar results) rather than just adapting between a small draft of choices.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 01:54 PM |
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Elvin said:
ChrisD1 said:
Elvin said:
Ideally, introducing some faction-themed abilities dispersed throughout the skillwheel would be fantastic.
you just described the racial skill.
Totally different. Racial abilities will ALWAYS be picked so you'll see them in every game. Dispersed abilities will depend on your build so there will be a variety every time.
Skill variety and replayability has taken the back seat in this game and I don't like it one bit. Restrictions everywhere telling you what to do, in skills, in town development, in magic. No actual freedom of choice, which should have been the cornerstone of a system designed to be manual.
not really. i have played maps where i didn't pick any of the racial abilities so i can have other abilities. and no one is forcing you to pick racials except if you are talking about the random system.
also with dispersed abilities that will depend on your build, you will always see them here and there.
i don't disaggree with what you say and it would be ideal, but i'm focusing on what we have now. instead.
as for replayability, and skill variety (for example diplomacy got its own slice with some yummy perks) i just don't agree. i'm playing this game very very very often and i'm still not bored of the skill system, nor do i think that free to pick system is smth even worse than our prime minister.
but mind you i'm a casual player and i don't overthink strategies(although i like the extra effort on that part)
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted November 05, 2015 02:11 PM |
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 02:16 PM |
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Racial abilities should level up with the hero at some fixed levels. They're too powerful to ignore so the only question you ask yourself is to level them now, or later?
But I agree with Elvin about the bad hero customization. With the magic schools for example, I like a lot of their abilities and it's fun to get the ultimates but they come at too great a cost. I wanna use more magic heroes for the ultimates but I hate coming across one that has no access to offense or defense or even warcries.
If you cannot pair ultimate light magic doing max damage with troops with offense skills increasing attack and flanking bonus...then what's the point? It's just choosing one or the other, not making strategy. Like when I get ultimate earth magic I'd like it paired with defense so my troops are tanks.
I could on about this with many different skill ultimates and combinations. The point is it sucks not being able to make your own combination of skills and choosing which ultimates you do want. And it sucks even more that most of the pre-chosen classes have very similar main skill choices and non main skills, resulting in less replay ability and a lot less fun. Powerful abilities at the cost of much less freedom...it's a sad and bad thing.
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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted November 05, 2015 02:26 PM |
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I heard some rumours that after we'll get patch 1.9 they'll announce first extension
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Our hopes for Heroes VIII!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 05, 2015 02:40 PM |
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gomaki said:
So you're proposing to completely re pick what skills each heroes has the possibility to pick/randomly get depending on what option you choose. I mean it's possible for sure from a technical stand point, It would however require an entire re-work of all 60 (61 with Solmyr) heroes skills however. It would be an incredibly hard sale, however this is more something I would push when we start discussing how to make the heroes feel more unique.
For now maybe it's better that we just don't have a skill cap at all and if you eventually get high enough level then it's just a bonus to have more skills. Let me bring it up at work see if there is any immediate pros and cons and i'll try keep everyone informed on the thought process.
I do not mean on a per hero basis but according to class. I have not looked closely into the skill combination of each class so I cannot tell if any skills would be better off changed but in magic skills at least there should be some flexibility. Why should a paladin for instance only have light magic? Why do elves have no light magic? Why does haven have no water magic? Etc. Or magic schools being dispersed through the wizard magic classes. Why should the class define what magic I pick? If the class defines the amount of magic schools I can learn I am cool with that but when it forces its magic skills on me, I am dimply disappointed. Erwan designed the magic lore in a way that there are as few gameplay restrictions as possible so there should not be a problem with that. The more options, the more replayability and diverse battles.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 02:58 PM |
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Elvin said:
Why should a paladin for instance only have light magic?
Sounds logical. Or you want to remove even basic RP elements? For any settings I'm aware of, not just Ashan, I think a Paladin either would have light magic or no magic at all. Would be nice to have fallen paladins or dark knights as a separate class though.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 02:59 PM |
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Well, the whole thing is upside down: you'd think you'd be able to pick from everything, and become member of a class because of what you pick.
Instead, there is an arbitrary pre-selection which means, that heroes are more or less born as being a certain class already, which is completely unsatisfactory and kills the RP element.
I've been suggesting empty pattern skill wheels already since last Xmas, where a class would be defined via general limits and conditions, so that you had 6 more or less empty skill wheels for each class, with a couple of given things already in (racial, for example, or Light Magic for Haven priest class hero and so on, and klicking on an empty skill slot would open a dropdown menu with all the skills possible.
That way you could "fill" the skill wheel - and as an added benefit, you could also reduce the number of different classes to 3 - 1 Might, 1 Magic and 1 mixed or something, like in Homm 5.5.
Likewise the mage guilds are crap, but again that's nothing new either.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 03:12 PM |
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Edited by TD at 15:22, 05 Nov 2015.
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@Gomaki
Would it be possible to at least re-make/re-adjust a new skill-wheel to governors? Frankly governors just don't feel worth leveling more than first 5-10 levels(if any) unless you have mentor. They are of no worth as main heroes so you might as well give them faster access to gov abilities by grouping them up in just 1-3 separate skills. Also those with gov specializations should always have full access to all gov abilities if you keep the current skill-tree style(the weird hybrids are the least worthwhile heroes really). Also it would be nice if you added way to give governors exp by governing(staying in town with full turn for example) since they are not really heroes that should be wondering around fighting, they are the governors for crying out loud!
Some new gov skills for the town would be welcome also. Currently you mainly offer just AoC battle-effects roughly equal to master level of given skill. I don't get why you can't boost champion or elite growth for example. Haven't you gotten enough complaints about this game being all about core units? So why do cores only get growth bonus? The current way governor are just feels so half done to me.
In general for the skill-tree I would really wish you just dumped the expert levels really. The skill either belongs to your hero/class or it doesn't. This is especially true with stuff like paragon or warfare, they are of zero worth if they are capped at expert.
In general I don't really get why all heroes need to have equal number of skills to begin with(and GMs). If you want jack-of-all-trades -kind of heroes give them more skills, some expert, many at master, you can even deny them GMs completely. For some heroes give them less skills, all master or GM. This is really just one of those things that made the skill-tree design feel so lazy as so many classes are as result so similar. Only differences tend to be couple skills have swapped master/expert or/spell-school changed. Changing some side-kick skills away like expert warfare makes no difference because nobody in their sane mind would pick it anyway.
Another thing is make skills scaling as you level up. I think at least in h6 for example the amount of luck/destiny the skill gave rose as your level(or some stat) rose. It feels extremely dull to get this big one time bonus and after that you never need to think about it again. This of course also applies to "specializations" also(or should we say generic and boring start bonuses which they currently are?)
Ohh and fix the necromancy! Either make it fun like in h5 where you could choose what creatures you get with the limited pool(which should grow as time goes on) or at the very least make it so you can't get more units out of stack than there were units. One dragon should equal one unit(if any given that we are supposed rising humanoid skeletons and banshees...). When I played necro it just snowballed like crazy on big map, I seriously doubt you ever did any actual testing/balancing on it! Necro to me feels extremely single dimensional race that's all about boosting the core units power(it feels that's literally all the faction has). And change the skill to raise undead enemy units to something like eternal servitude of h5 to give some worth to higher necro units too. The current version just makes me scratch my head as to why didn't my (I apologize for the language in advance)retard necromancer raise units from my armys lost/dead units too...
Other things for skill-system:
-Allow advancing in skill-levels without picking abilities like in past games(this would make playing with random actually fun and viable IMO).
-Limit the number of abilities you can get from skill to one per skill-level(GM counts as skill-level in this sense). This to make people actually think what they need from the skills
-Add some unique racial abilities to skills, they just feel so generic and boring currently(IMO).
-Regarding last paragraph put some pre-requirements to skills that may be different on other factions, that should force people to evaluate if getting the skill is worth taking the other skills/abilities. Having no pre-requisites/connections to other skills combined with no ability limits per skill are in great part what makes the skill-tree so boring, you got never any downsides to take into account. Instead you got just one-time permanent bonus and that's that.
Edit:
And really I wish you re-made the whole skill-tree, to me it's one of the worst things in the game. I absolutely loath it! To me if there was a good skill-system I could at least enjoy hotseat games even if we only got AI to mediocre level, but the current system is just terrible. I had a friend try the game on hot-seat and he hated it. Few friends who've only looked at the game from site decided straight off not to order it based on the skill-tree(well among other things). In fact Nobody I know in RL has liked the design you put up. Not even a friend of mine who like h6(to be fair he disliked that system already in h6).
Really one of the biggest mistakes you made in development was you being unwilling to listen and talk with the fans. Instead you just said too early to talk about X and then you announced how it will be, too late to change anything.
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