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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 03:19 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:21, 05 Nov 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
Well, the whole thing is upside down: you'd think you'd be able to pick from everything, and become member of a class because of what you pick.
Instead, there is an arbitrary pre-selection which means, that heroes are more or less born as being a certain class already, which is completely unsatisfactory and kills the RP element.
I've been suggesting empty pattern skill wheels already since last Xmas, where a class would be defined via general limits and conditions, so that you had 6 more or less empty skill wheels for each class, with a couple of given things already in (racial, for example, or Light Magic for Haven priest class hero and so on, and klicking on an empty skill slot would open a dropdown menu with all the skills possible.
Didn't you find it quite ridiculous having to explain them all that in the first place? That's just basic understanding of RPG design which was even present with previous Heroes games, so it's not like it was something never seen before. But I guess their skilwheel and classes ambitions made them lose sight of what made those system good in the first place. What a joke.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 03:26 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Well, the whole thing is upside down: you'd think you'd be able to pick from everything, and become member of a class because of what you pick.
I recall none such games (of any genre) which had such mechanics. You either have classes or you don't. I think you simply don't like class based systems.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 05, 2015 03:32 PM |
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Donwload isn't starting. Anyone else having the same issue?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 03:33 PM |
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Bitula said:
JollyJoker said:
Well, the whole thing is upside down: you'd think you'd be able to pick from everything, and become member of a class because of what you pick.
I recall none such games (of any genre) which had such mechanics. You either have classes or you don't. I think you simply don't like class based systems.
Play a bit HoMM 4, that might surprise you.
Now, we've always had "classes" of heroes in the game, but except for some very special things that may not have been possible to do with every class, we never were limited in such an arbitrary, silly way. And silly it is, when you look at the magic limitations - no light magic for Sylvans? Please.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted November 05, 2015 03:37 PM |
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Valen-Teen said:
I heard some rumours that after we'll get patch 1.9 they'll announce first extension 
loooool, looks like they'll be firing up the carnival of stupid one last time before the repo men finally turn up then lol
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 03:38 PM |
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Bitula said:
JollyJoker said:
Well, the whole thing is upside down: you'd think you'd be able to pick from everything, and become member of a class because of what you pick.
I recall none such games (of any genre) which had such mechanics. You either have classes or you don't. I think you simply don't like class based systems.
Firstly, Heroes 4. Secondly, even if there were no examples at all, it wouldn't invalidate the fact that the process of "becoming" is preferable to that of "being" in RPGs and story writing. That's just basic.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 03:38 PM |
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Stevie said:
JollyJoker said:
Well, the whole thing is upside down: you'd think you'd be able to pick from everything, and become member of a class because of what you pick.
Instead, there is an arbitrary pre-selection which means, that heroes are more or less born as being a certain class already, which is completely unsatisfactory and kills the RP element.
I've been suggesting empty pattern skill wheels already since last Xmas, where a class would be defined via general limits and conditions, so that you had 6 more or less empty skill wheels for each class, with a couple of given things already in (racial, for example, or Light Magic for Haven priest class hero and so on, and klicking on an empty skill slot would open a dropdown menu with all the skills possible.
Didn't you find it quite ridiculous having to explain them all that in the first place? That's just basic understanding of RPG design which was even present with previous Heroes games, so it's not like it was something never seen before. But I guess their skilwheel and classes ambitions made them lose sight of what made those system good in the first place. What a joke.
Yes, indeed. I couldn't believe it when they came up with it - actually it came as a fait accompli, and you can imagine I was pretty aghast.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 05, 2015 03:42 PM |
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gomaki said:
So you're proposing to completely re pick what skills each heroes has the possibility to pick/randomly get depending on what option you choose. I mean it's possible for sure from a technical stand point, It would however require an entire re-work of all 60 (61 with Solmyr) heroes skills however. It would be an incredibly hard sale, however this is more something I would push when we start discussing how to make the heroes feel more unique.
You have 6 Classes per Faction, 6 Factions total, makes for 36 different Skillwheels. I am ignoring Solmyr for this consideration.
I see two issues with this distribution:
- Some Skillwheels within a given Faction look way too similar, especially when it comes to GM skills (which people will likely develop), while other combinations are missing;
- The number of Heroes per Class is low, just 1 or 2 (with one notable exception, for Sylvan), which means that as soon as someone has a particular Hero in play, other players are denied that particular Skillwheel setup;
The first one can be remedied by taking a closer look at Skillwheels within a given Faction and giving them more diversity. The second one can be remedied by adding more Heroes to a given Class. Neither seems hard to do, you just need some more Hero portraits and some (original) specialties.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted November 05, 2015 03:52 PM |
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Stevie said:
Bitula said:
JollyJoker said:
Well, the whole thing is upside down: you'd think you'd be able to pick from everything, and become member of a class because of what you pick.
I recall none such games (of any genre) which had such mechanics. You either have classes or you don't. I think you simply don't like class based systems.
Firstly, Heroes 4. Secondly, even if there were no examples at all, it wouldn't invalidate the fact that the process of "becoming" is preferable to that of "being" in RPGs and story writing. That's just basic.
Yes, specially when they designed a game around storytelling, where one is supposed to evolve, possibly into something else. These classes they made, they could have been advanced classes, in the likes of those from Heroes 4. Heroes 4 had interesting mechanics, mechanics that had some poor implementation, but that had a good and unique purpose if polished, which didn't happen when they launched H5. Retroactive development started by then and now it shows.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 03:56 PM |
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Stevie said:
Firstly, Heroes 4. Secondly, even if there were no examples at all, it wouldn't invalidate the fact that the process of "becoming" is preferable to that of "being" in RPGs and story writing. That's just basic.
No, because unless you are aware of the complete lore or just experiment you will most likely hit a jack-of-all-trade instead of a class. Or the classes would have to be "milked down". Overall, it just has no advantage compared to a classles systems. And, yes I didn't play H4. I've heard it wasn't too successful, lol...
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 04:03 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
- no light magic for Sylvans? Please.
Well in many settings Elves are chaotic neutrals and follow nature not some holy stuff and so here earth would seem to be a logical choice.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted November 05, 2015 05:16 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 05 Nov 2015. |
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BitulaAnd said:
yes I didn't play H4. I've heard it wasn't too successful, lol...
I reckon H4 sold pretty well, so it was successful in that department.
H4 was rushed, undermanned, buggy and unfinished, plus it brought huge changes to game mechanics (heroes in combat, simultaneous retaliations, daily creature growth, creatures choices with no upgrades, etc...) and a lot of fans didn't like that, thus it was labelled as the black sheep of the series (until H6 came ).
The truth is, however, that aside from certain decisions that drove the game away from its core (such as heroes in combat), H4 made a lot of great strides in the right direction. Flaggable weekly resource generators and caravans saved the player from having to do some needlessly micromanagement. Spell scrolls learnable (if the required Magic Skill mastery was meeted) made them actually useful. The Skill System was slighty expanded with the addition of subskills (the prequel to perks) as well as taking away all the useless skills H2-3 suffered from. Creature abilities saw some further development, most notably the addition of spellbooks to spellcasters. The Magic System was redesigned around five, well-defined Magic Schools followin a theme each. The list goes on.
Honestly, H4 has it fair share of flaws, but it's heavily underrated too.
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olorin
Adventuring Hero
tophatchild.blogspot.com
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posted November 05, 2015 05:46 PM |
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Edited by olorin at 17:46, 05 Nov 2015.
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I can see potential in Heroes VII, truly I am, but I simply do not understand the very reason of its release (aside from the lucrative aim, of course): Heroes V is still way better, even more since magnomagus stepped forward : http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=41303
BTW, I only mentioned H5 for not bringing up our "oldies".
So, 50 bucks for what, fellowmen? An unfinished, slow, outdated, mediocre game? 
Is there anybody here who also thinks townscreens are a bit... dull. Don't get me wrong: they're fine (I even think the graphic side is one of the major points in the game) but I'm able to identify a lack of "life" there, like they were only what they really are... pictures.
Question: Anyone here've had the opportunity of checking the loading times up in a slow/regular machine? I won't buy the game till this bug's properly fixed. I'm aware my laptop is slightly outdated (I mean, scratching the minimum requirements), but we're talkig about a strategy game here. Modern jewels such as Darkness II, Bioshock, Skyrim, Deux Ex, Civilization, etc. run just fine on it, why don't Heroes VII at all? 
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted November 05, 2015 05:46 PM |
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gomaki said:
Morning all.
A complete overhaul of the skill system is simply not going to happen so I wouldn't even bother to include it in your scope of suggestion.
Ok, we know since the Skilwheel: design philosophy article, but let's focus on some ways of improvement which are as I believe much easier to implement/change in the game.
The advantages of the current skilwheel:
- Racial abilities implemented in
- No direct level restrictions for skills
- Not too easy way to learn powerful abilities
These three features, especially the last one, were also (as well as direct spells learning) the biggest problems of skilltrees in H6 (and maybe of the whole game). Fortunately some right decisions were done during H7 development and you will not repeat the same mistakes again, at least not in this case.
However, some new problems appeared:
- Classes are not different to each other.Really, the same grandmasters are used again and again, and some of them are only for 1 class of 36. I would expect you to have similar numbers of grandmasters in general in the game, especially, when some GMs are nonsensically chosen (warfares for magic hero) now.
Also, one faction should have totaly different grandmaster accessses. It means: 1 racial GM for all the heroes of the faction, plus 2 others per class, defining this class clearly. I give you an example of possible changes as regards haven heroes to better understand me (the original skill is written in the brackets):
vindicator - warcries, offense (without change)
knight - leadership, economy (without change)
paladin - defense, diplomacy (without change)
inquisitor - fire magic, destiny (instead of warfare)
priest - prime magic, air magic/paragon/exploration (instead of light magic)
confessor - paragon, light magic (without change)
- There are not enough skills in each class to make it interesting to play it more than once. I am speaking especially about campaigns, but this problem appears in single/multiplayer games too. You will make a combination you like which you see as the best possible from avaiable skills, usually especially using GMs and masters. But that is all. When you play this class again, you will probably do similar. No space for various combinations.
Possible solutions:
+ no minor skills, all 10 skills will be avaiable on master rank (and 3 of them on grandmaster, too)
+ the possibility to change/choose a class in campaign. I know this is not the first time I mention this things, but I cannot believe you don't understand its importance in campaign. Of course it might not be the best for the story but you could make this option unlocked only after the campaign is once completed. Then people could choose different class ans start campaign again, with possible different skills and tactics
- Level cap We are finally getting to do this discussed problem. I would not like the possibility of more difficult leveling, just cause it would possibly make problems to level up in campaigns.
On the other hand, I understand some caps are neccessary in campaigns. Waiting very long time, you could probably get high level in the first mission. But generally, out of campaigns and in campaigns last maps, I see no reason to have maximal level 30, it only annoys players. And usually no player picks finally all the skills if leveling is more difficult (more XP needed), but only after 30 level, not sooner.
I hope you understood what I meant. I can do the same I did for haven gradmasters for all the other factions too if you tell me you are interested in this idea
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 06:25 PM |
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Antalyan said:
The advantages of the current skilwheel:
- Racial abilities implemented in
- No direct level restrictions for skills
- Not too easy way to learn powerful abilities
Must say I have very different view on your "positives"
Getting the powerful abilities be that GMs or highest tier spells is very fast and easy in h7. I mean you can get GM at earliest on level 6 or latest level 8 depending on start hero and skills after which you often don't really need much, at most another skill.
The racials to me were a huge let-down really. There is so much overlap with them with other skills/spells, not mention the overlap between racials themselves. If you compare them to h5 racials for example you can see just how different the racials can be.
As for level restrictions, I really wish they had some. For example access to a single GM at levels 10, 20 and 30. That would require some more planning from player and not make such no-brainer build templates. Even better if you could make your class like this, choosing the GMs by building the hero with full access to all skills instead of being restricted since start to build the hero certain way.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted November 05, 2015 06:35 PM |
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TD said:
Antalyan said:
The advantages of the current skilwheel:
- Racial abilities implemented in
- No direct level restrictions for skills
- Not too easy way to learn powerful abilities
Must say I have very different view on your "positives"
Getting the powerful abilities be that GMs or highest tier spells is very fast and easy in h7. I mean you can get GM at earliest on level 6 or latest level 8 depending on start hero and skills after which you often don't really need much, at most another skill.
The racials to me were a huge let-down really. There is so much overlap with them with other skills/spells, not mention the overlap between racials themselves. If you compare them to h5 racials for example you can see just how different the racials can be.
As for level restrictions, I really wish they had some. For example access to a single GM at levels 10, 20 and 30. That would require some more planning from player and not make such no-brainer build templates. Even better if you could make your class like this, choosing the GMs by building the hero with full access to all skills instead of being restricted since start to build the hero certain way.
As the access of GMs, I like them as they are. Level restriction needs saving your skill points until you reach certain level which I hated in H6. However, what I mean by "not too easy way" is, that you have to spend many other skill points to learn novice, expert and master. In h6, if you had your level high enough, you was able to learn the most powerful skills, usually using only one skill point. That was the problem.
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted November 05, 2015 06:56 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Well, the whole thing is upside down: you'd think you'd be able to pick from everything, and become member of a class because of what you pick.
I don't understand why was it not designed like this!? Even if they still wanted to limit the amount of skills available, let us pick the other two main skills and that can determine the class. It would have just been way better all around. 
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted November 05, 2015 07:17 PM |
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Edited by Antalyan at 19:18, 05 Nov 2015.
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The_green_drag said:
JollyJoker said:
Well, the whole thing is upside down: you'd think you'd be able to pick from everything, and become member of a class because of what you pick.
I don't understand why was it not designed like this!? Even if they still wanted to limit the amount of skills available, let us pick the other two main skills and that can determine the class. It would have just been way better all around.
Sure it would be. Unfortunately we were not involved and we have to accept it now. However, we can still provide our feedback and hope for change of some classes, as I have written above.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 05, 2015 07:28 PM |
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TD said:
And really I wish you re-made the whole skill-tree, to me it's one of the worst things in the game. I absolutely loath it!
Co-sign. Ubilimb's reticence on the matter is beyond me.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted November 05, 2015 07:57 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 20:02, 05 Nov 2015.
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guys do we have a blinding spell or effect in the game?
EDIT: for the skill wheel discussion
I would like picking magic schools but what happens when might factions get access to inner fire.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
