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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 23, 2016 12:19 PM |
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More gold so that you can buy even more cores? These days I just read and smile 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 23, 2016 12:28 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 12:31, 23 Sep 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
SoilBurn said:
.
- Town Hall now gives ridiculous amount of money for its cost: Whatever. The town needed more income. This is not the most elegant way to do it however (bc you now have no option BUT to upgrade the town hall the moment the upgrade becomes available).
The PROBLEM you describe just means, that they screwed up game economy. The "SOLUTION" they found is not "not the most elegant way", it just screws things up even more; keep in mind that with the way they are handling things you are not forced to invest more money into Elites/Champions. If you take, for example the Mine Wars map, there are TWO Core Out-of-town dwellings in your towns area of control. Add to that a creature special hero - say, Drakon, the Gnoll specialist, you get the following amount of Gnolls:
I am not trying to defend them or anything, but the towns did need more income at higher levels before. What you are describing is a map problem, not a town problem.
Until yesterday's patch, there was little reason to invest in high cost units - for 2 reasons:
a) you could not afford them (too little income) and
b) core units are more efficient from a power/cost perspective (i.e the elites and esp. champions were too expensive to build and recruit).
Based on the above, I actually welcome the 2.2 changes. I just think it would have been much better to spread the buffs, like some posters above recommended (e.g. give the Marketplace a 500 gold income) and not create braindead choices like e.g. having to rush town hall because it is overpowered now.
Aionb said:
So, game was easy (read stupid?) enough to win it with cores most of the time and they solve it by making it even easier with more affordable elites and champions? (plus greater income from Town Hall?? Is this designed for kindergarten players?)
This is not accurate. You can still win maps only with Cores if you invest everything into upgrading them early and buying all of them every week (but before this was by far the most efficient strategy, which gets repetitive after a while).
Heroes, like every strategy game, should be a game of choices. Do I focus on Core creatures or do I invest early in the higher tier and risk having a weaker army in the meantime?
For me a "kindergarten" game is one that does not give you such choices and only makes you play in a very specific, pre-defined way. So to put it in your words, the 2.2 patch is definitely less kindergarten-oriented than 2.1. - or at least this is my first impression after the one Skirmish game I played yesterday on the map Alternate History.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 23, 2016 12:45 PM |
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Momo said:
Now ironically the things in which Ashan shows a modicum of more personality and uniqueness, like the Angels VS Faceless contrast of opinion (and following war) or the vision of undeath as a form of ascetism, are heavily criticized. I am sorry for that, I honestly think that Ashan gets more criticism that it deserves.
I'd just like to make mention, that I don't think people are hugely opposed to elements like that, as long as they are not creating a clash with the gameplay of Heroes or wiping out something else that people are fond of lol
for example the undead philosopher Mesopotamian Buddhists is not a bad idea in terms of flavour and background lore, just look at Gauldoth for a good example of an undead, multifaceted philosopher, even the spider motif is not inherently a worse idea than griffin motif for Castle/Haven in Heroes 3,
there's no problem with that stuff for the *campaign*, having an official kingdom with a flag and philosophy and all that as long as you keep it subtle and flexible, for instance many people will not even have noticed that the flag of Krewlod is a wolf lol
however, there's more to Heroes than the official world and campaign,
Heroes is at its best when it functions as a sandbox, mapmakers need a relatively classical/typical undead lineup to be able to build their own worlds, and the fun of the Necropolis faction in Heroes is in being a power hungry troll raising mass armies of their dead to serve you, enslaving legions of skeletons and zombies and all that, they are a warped parody of the living, this is the whole playstyle and the entertainment value lol
thus if you are taking JVC's gameplay and applying your own flavour motifs to it in the extreme beyond the campaign, by actually shoving in spiders and obscure things like Namtarus to the official lineup, altering the official necromancy mechanics to suit you, spider leg castle or making every official Necropolis hero a bland grey skinned supermodel, it quickly becomes this dysfunctional mess, and not only do you have to write lots of complicated made up bull **** to explain how this crap actually ties together in your own world, but so does any mapmaker have to justify it in their maps lol
by putting in the methhead Lich they are taking away the more classical and versatile skeletal Lich, by putting in bland grayscale "vampires" everywhere they are taking away the more diverse zombie and lich heroes, by really pushing and shoving Erwin's personal fanfics down the neck they are depriving us of far better fan works, by trying to make oh so clever lore they are dumbing down the game lol
SoilBurn said:
@Momo: Your views on the Oldverse lore are very biased like I said before. Good lore but not as deep or special as you think. I don't think it is worth discussing with you about it as you seem very absolute in your posts. Ashan might be generic & shallow, but at least it is fleshed out across many games (both story-wise and visually) iand creates a cohesive whole. This gives it a lot of plus points over the old universe for me personally.
Well, someone who worships A and condemns B without finding any gray areas in-between, does not sound very objective, do they?
I have stated here many times that I have played enough games in both universes, read a lot of stories outside of games (be it on Heroes-related websites or wiki articles) and I generally enjoy anything related to Might & Magic, regardless of the universe it takes place in. Of course some stories are better than others (and I agree that Ashan is generic, shallow fantasy in its core that copies other brands), but it also has its merits (which I have stated repeatedly). I am a big fan of being able to visualize the stories and the universe, and Ashan does a much better job at giving me one whole, that is not fractured in ten million pieces and several parallel worlds.
I mean, the thing is you could very easily do this same thing to anything lol
you could very easily take anything with an established setting or lore and destroy it or overwrite it, completely strip out whatever identity, themes or tone it has and repackage it to suit your purposes, that's not creatively intelligent or worthy, it's so plain and simple to do lol
take Dragon Age as a thought experiment for instance, we can probably agree that Dragon Age is trying to be a gritty, gory, slightly edgy medieval western fantasy action/tactics RPG focused on dialogue with roots in Baldur's Gate, that's the way it is for better or worse, nobody argues with that lol
let's say I am some random fedora who is a casual acquaintance with the head of Vivendi and Vivendi suddenly buys EA, and Bollore randomly appoints me and my cronies to creative direct Dragon Age going forward,
well you know I can very, very easily say meh, I don't care what Bioware and their following who bought those games did or thought or felt really, that's in the past, and it's a whole lot of continuity to look over and research, mehhhhhh, I will really not attempt to gather knowledge or adapt myself to suit this task, I will just follow whatever my own instincts are and pull my own fiction out of my ass, and they can slap the name Dragon Age on it for commercial reasons lol
suppose I'm a big fan of children's cartoon fantasy and horrible "comedic" fantasy like Epic Movie, and I apply my own vision full on to Dragon Age, and the next Dragon Age is in this out of left field setting called Erwinnia with no mention or acknowledgement of Thedas, where all the blood and gore is unceremoniously replaced by Looney Tunes style cartoon slapstick comedy, the focus on battle tactics and dialogue shifts to character action-style combat and fully scripted cutscenes, the gritty bleak setting now resembles the setting of Teletubbies, the Qunari are gone and replaced with knockoffs of the Draenei from Warcraft, the art direction is now more in line with a JRPG, etc, and this thing I've come up with is what Dragon Age is now, and you will like it or lump it lol
is that really Dragon Age in your opinion, just because the box says so, lol
well, as an individual fan, you may say yes of course it is, you may like Erwinnia, you may love it, you may well even prefer it, fine good luck to you, you've got yours,
but if one comes on to Dragon Age forums to bicker and argue, one must deal with the fact that there was no deep-reaching artistic debate or division, and resentment, about what the identity of Dragon Age was before, because nobody conceived that something so ponderous and arbitrary and weird, and purely business-driven could have happened to that property, but, there it is, lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 01:31 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
JollyJoker said:
SoilBurn said:
.
- Town Hall now gives ridiculous amount of money for its cost: Whatever. The town needed more income. This is not the most elegant way to do it however (bc you now have no option BUT to upgrade the town hall the moment the upgrade becomes available).
The PROBLEM you describe just means, that they screwed up game economy. The "SOLUTION" they found is not "not the most elegant way", it just screws things up even more; keep in mind that with the way they are handling things you are not forced to invest more money into Elites/Champions. If you take, for example the Mine Wars map, there are TWO Core Out-of-town dwellings in your towns area of control. Add to that a creature special hero - say, Drakon, the Gnoll specialist, you get the following amount of Gnolls:
I am not trying to defend them or anything, but the towns did need more income at higher levels before. What you are describing is a map problem, not a town problem.
Until yesterday's patch, there was little reason to invest in high cost units - for 2 reasons:
a) you could not afford them (too little income) and
b) core units are more efficient from a power/cost perspective (i.e the elites and esp. champions were too expensive to build and recruit).
Based on the above, I actually welcome the 2.2 changes. I just think it would have been much better to spread the buffs, like some posters above recommended (e.g. give the Marketplace a 500 gold income) and not create braindead choices like e.g. having to rush town hall because it is overpowered now.
I think, you do not understand the ACTUAL problem here (but Limbic doesn't understand it either); keep in mind that H6 patch 1.7 ALL economy changes were made by me, and H6 had the same problem, core dominance.
For one thing, H6 has a radically different creature growth (that is not based on the simple formula 1 (champion), 2 (better Elite), 5, 10 (better Core) 20, with slight variations, but has actually a different creature growth for all 7 creatures (and the base growth for Sanctuary Champion is TWO), with Core growth rates being half of that of H7, and that includes the additional growth you got via upgrading the dwelling, PLUS, the 3 defense buildings would increase growth for all creatures by +1 (actually great for Champs). Also I reduced the amount of creatures you get with outside dwellings as much as just possible when you still wanted to make a difference between strong growth and weaker growth creatures. I also - and that was something I did as well, albeit that was in from the start and more because otherwise there wouldn't have been a reason to build it at all, gave +500 Gold to the Market, making max town income 4500.
Also, creature specialists are very toned down in H6 and have no influence on out-of-town dwellings, if I'm not totally wrong here.
In H7 this is definitely NOT a map problem. Even with just one outside dwelling you'd still collect 68 Gnolls per week with Drakon as a secondary, and it MUST be okay to have one outside core dwelling in your town AoC, because that's a priority target, obviously, and if THAT was enough to completely unbalance the game, the whole thing was obviously wrong.
Bottom line is - and keep in mind that at release the Horde dwelling wasn't 50% of the growth, but 100% - that there isn't not enough gold, but too many core creatures that you can easily get, which is also dumb when you consider that stuff like Frenzy (and artifacts that add damage are favoring cores), while all percentage gains (say, hero stats( favoring everything alike).
So, I repeat this. They are completely clueless about "game economy" (and not only about that).
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 23, 2016 01:38 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 13:39, 23 Sep 2016.
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@Verriker: Frankly, your whole teletubby/Looney Tunes/cartoon slapstick comparison is completely out of place and shows once again that you only post here to provoke. It is very hard to take anything you say seriously when you obviously try to make fun of other members' interests and/or preferences.
I am a big fan of Dragon Age and its lore and I fail to see any of the points that you are making. Yes, the Thedas setting is very detailed and deep - and I enjoy reading every little detail of it (when did which Dwarven thaig get run over, which Old Gods reappeared when etc.).
This does not mean, however, that Ashan is "cartoon slapstick" or anything. Quite on the contrary: The setting is quite well-described with a detailed timeline and a lot of good stories here and there. Moreover, the art style used in the Ashan games (barring H5) is more "mature" than in older games of the series, although it is not dark and gory (why does it have to be?). If you are looking for a "cartoony" game, then WoW or H5 is what you should be using as examples, not Ashan as a whole. And, to be absolutely honest, I only got interested in the Ashan lore with H6. H5 was apparently too goofy-looking for my tastes to get into the setting/lore/story/you-name-it and I only valued it as a Heroes game (from a purely strategy game standpoint).
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 23, 2016 01:48 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
@Verriker: Frankly, your whole teletubby/Looney Tunes/cartoon slapstick comparison is completely out of place
No it's a direct comparison to the MM brand, actually right on point.
Quote:
and shows once again that you only post here to provoke. It is very hard to take anything you say seriously when you obviously try to make fun of other members' interests and/or preferences.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 23, 2016 02:17 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
@Verriker: Frankly, your whole teletubby/Looney Tunes/cartoon slapstick comparison is completely out of place and shows once again that you only post here to provoke. It is very hard to take anything you say seriously when you obviously try to make fun of other members' interests and/or preferences.
I am a big fan of Dragon Age and its lore and I fail to see any of the points that you are making. Yes, the Thedas setting is very detailed and deep - and I enjoy reading every little detail of it (when did which Dwarven thaig get run over, which Old Gods reappeared when etc.).
This does not mean, however, that Ashan is "cartoon slapstick" or anything. Quite on the contrary: The setting is quite well-described with a detailed timeline and a lot of good stories here and there. Moreover, the art style used in the Ashan games (barring H5) is more "mature" than in older games of the series, although it is not dark and gory (why does it have to be?). If you are looking for a "cartoony" game, then WoW or H5 is what you should be using as examples, not Ashan as a whole. And, to be absolutely honest, I only got interested in the Ashan lore with H6. H5 was apparently too goofy-looking for my tastes to get into the setting/lore/story/you-name-it and I only valued it as a Heroes game (from a purely strategy game standpoint).
first of all, I would much appreciate, if you could kindly not insist in nearly each and every single response to me (despite being told otherwise again and again) that I am taking time out of my busy day writing these long posts just to personally troll you,
I could accuse you of the very same bad faith, when you are trying to aggravate me with these ad hominem accusations, but instead I again and again extend respect and courtesy to you as a fellow user and would not resort to dismissive remarks, instead attempting to explain things to you patiently from my perspective, I beg of you to try to distinguish well-intentioned rhetorical argumentation and abstract reasoning from personally-directed remarks or insinuations, these are two different things cheers lol
back to the matter at hand, you are trying to apply my analogy much too literally there, thus completely missing the point,
I am clearly not trying to suggest that Erwin has turned the Heroes setting into a Looney Tunes cartoon with slapstick, Teletubbies, Draenei and Devil May Cry combat, I am taking the example of the world of Dragon Age and trying to outline a world alien in so many ways to that one, created by a complete rando and touted as a permanent replacement for that world with the Dragon Age name slapped on the box,
try to imagine what I described has happened to Dragon Age from a fan's perspective, imagine something along those lines occurred and you complained about it to EA, only to be told by those who came up with "new Dragon Age" that it's all a matter of taste, you are biased, and that no effort was made to continue the original legacy, even if any of that were valid to an extent wouldn't you agree the result is very divorced from your perception of Dragon Age and be within your rights to find that at least a little bit antagonistic lol
objectively speaking, it's an act destined to divide the fanbase at best, which is exactly what Erwin has done, and more, lol
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 23, 2016 04:20 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 16:22, 23 Sep 2016.
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Galaad said:
SoilBurn said:
@Verriker: Frankly, your whole teletubby/Looney Tunes/cartoon slapstick comparison is completely out of place
No it's a direct comparison to the MM brand, actually right on point.
Exactly the point I was trying to raise, thanks for confirming.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted September 23, 2016 04:34 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
Exactly the point I was trying to raise, thanks for confirming.
You've completely ignored latest Verriker's post, haven't you? 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 23, 2016 04:35 PM |
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lol
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted September 23, 2016 05:21 PM |
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verriker said:
however, there's more to Heroes than the official world and campaign,
Heroes is at its best when it functions as a sandbox, mapmakers need a relatively classical/typical undead lineup to be able to build their own worlds, and the fun of the Necropolis faction in Heroes is in being a power hungry troll raising mass armies of their dead to serve you, enslaving legions of skeletons and zombies and all that, they are a warped parody of the living, this is the whole playstyle and the entertainment value lol
thus if you are taking JVC's gameplay and applying your own flavour motifs to it in the extreme beyond the campaign, by actually shoving in spiders and obscure things like Namtarus to the official lineup, altering the official necromancy mechanics to suit you, spider leg castle or making every official Necropolis hero a bland grey skinned supermodel, it quickly becomes this dysfunctional mess, and not only do you have to write lots of complicated made up bull **** to explain how this crap actually ties together in your own world, but so does any mapmaker have to justify it in their maps lol
by putting in the methhead Lich they are taking away the more classical and versatile skeletal Lich, by putting in bland grayscale "vampires" everywhere they are taking away the more diverse zombie and lich heroes, by really pushing and shoving Erwin's personal fanfics down the neck they are depriving us of far better fan works, by trying to make oh so clever lore they are dumbing down the game lol
well put! 
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 23, 2016 06:28 PM |
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Looking at what H7 patching process's like actually makes me start to think about a really crazy theory: Limbic guys have a special contract or deal with Ubi, saying that they will have finished patching the game (=end their collaboration, which means paying them) as soon as there are no more gamebreaking bugs in. So they always have to break something, to keep their jobs as long as possible, maybe to also bring us some smaller improvements for it too
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 23, 2016 06:40 PM |
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Antalyan said:
Looking at what H7 patching process's like actually makes me start to think about a really crazy theory: Limbic guys have a special contract or deal with Ubi, saying that they will have finished patching the game (=end their collaboration, which means paying them) as soon as there are no more gamebreaking bugs in. So they always have to break something, to keep their jobs as long as possible, maybe to also bring us some smaller improvements for it too
This is the only logical explanation. I cannot fathom why else they would break spells, animations and game functions that were working perfectly before. They didn't even have to touch those to correct the bugs and balance the game, how did they even do this?? I'm completely at a loss here.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 23, 2016 06:45 PM |
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I got a more plausible explanation: They don't know what they're doing 
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 23, 2016 06:54 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
I got a more plausible explanation: They don't know what they're doing
But even if you don't know what you're doing (or exactly due to it), you won't touch the things you don't have to, at all. I really don't want to believe any developer could be so incompetent, more likely the one collaborating with huge company like Ubisoft is.
Compared to that, my theory means H7 players could possibly benefit from Limbic's approach as it means more improvements "allowed" by Ubi & less work for modders (if they finally clean their mess at the end).
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 23, 2016 07:00 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
You've completely ignored latest Verriker's post, haven't you?
well, I mean look we have some opponents ostensibly trying to make the case for Ashan, who will either just post one liners, take umbrage to you and insult you, or go blank on you and refuse to engage in the middle of the discussion lol
I'm not invested in being right guys, I'm interested in quality reasoning and argumentation to support your position, you are only telegraphing that there's none available with this kind of reaction lol
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 07:12 PM |
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Are you guys really suprised Limbic managed to screw something up?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 07:16 PM |
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 23, 2016 07:18 PM |
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Datapack said:
Are you guys really suprised Limbic managed to screw something up?
I'm surprised they managed to screw so many new things up, the things which used to work before 2.2 ...
You know I'm a die-hard fan of H7 so it hurts me a lot.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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lordgraa
Promising
Famous Hero
The Whisperer
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posted September 23, 2016 07:34 PM |
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Antalyan said:
Datapack said:
Are you guys really suprised Limbic managed to screw something up?
I'm surprised they managed to screw so many new things up, the things which used to work before 2.2 ...
You know I'm a die-hard fan of H7 so it hurts me a lot.
Die-hard fan numero duo here
But patch 2.2 is... well... iconic  Just look at this image and try to guess why is Face of Fear not working after patch:
I am afraid they are sabotaging the game 
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World of Heroes (Czech fansite)
The Shadows Over Ashan (H7 community DLC)
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
